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Engine Swap (Read 1231 times)
Dec 10th, 2008 at 5:02pm

Goofyfish   Offline
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I am toying around with swapping an engine into an existing model and would like to get it as accurate as possible. Is there a reference (or references) you all would recommend explaining the config files and how they relate to the "real world"?

Rick
 

Let's get one thing straight. There's a big difference between a pilot and &&an aviator. One is a technician; the other is an artist in love with flight. &&&&— E. B. Jeppesen
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Reply #1 - Dec 10th, 2008 at 8:44pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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I've done more than a few virtual engine swaps. Editing the cfg file is easy and straight-forwad, but getting realistic results are not easy.

Rather than me list a volume of possibilities, just post details about the swap, and I'll try to help.
 
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Reply #2 - Dec 10th, 2008 at 9:32pm

ShaneG   Offline
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On this note, I have a nice C150 I would like to add just a little more kick to without drastically upsetting other performance factors.
Would swapping in the default C172 or C182 do the trick? I'm only looking to boost the cruising speed by 25-30kts. It's currently at around 90, and I would like to  have it at 120 or so.
 
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Reply #3 - Dec 10th, 2008 at 10:07pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Oh man, Shane..  I mean, you can do anything you like, but that would be quite unrealistic. A 6cyl Lycombing bolted onto a C150 just wouldn't work. The CG would be a mess.

Now, I suppose it would be "kinda" realistic to turbo-charge that little 4cyl for extra HP. That would be do-able on a real one (though getting FAA certification would be impossible).

If you're not familiar with realistic cfg modifications.. just email me the aircraft.cfg, and I'll email back a "modestly" turbo-charged C150, along with a copy of the original aircraft.cfg file for backup.

Just remember that you're TBO will be cut in half..   Cheesy
 
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Reply #4 - Dec 11th, 2008 at 5:38am

ShaneG   Offline
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They didn't seem that different really, except for the lines I've posted here, the rest of the engine data in the .cfg was identical. Maybe I want something in between these two then? The one I'm wanting to use is only a 4cyl. also, I figured that would be reasonably realistic, at least within the bounds of do-ability. I think engine swap was the wrong terms to think in, it's more like a cylinder bore job.
Grin Would a 6cyl even fit under the hood of a 150?

This is the engine section of the C150:

[piston_engine]
power_scalar=1.00000
cylinder_displacement=50.00000
compression_ratio=7.0000
number_of_cylinders=4
max_rated_rpm=2750.00000
max_rated_hp=100.00000

And this is from the default FS9 C172

[piston_engine]
power_scalar = 1.0                              //Piston power scalar
cylinder_displacement= 90.0                     //Cubic inches per cylinder
compression_ratio= 8.5                          //Compression ratio
number_of_cylinders=4                           //Number of cylinders
max_rated_rpm= 2700                             //Max rated RPM
max_rated_hp= 180                               //Max rated HP
« Last Edit: Dec 11th, 2008 at 6:45am by ShaneG »  
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Reply #5 - Dec 11th, 2008 at 6:50am

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Oh Geez.. you're right..  I had brain freeze  Embarrassed

I fly 172s regularly and KNOW that they're 4cyl..

Yeah.. that upgrade isn't out of the question, in the realm of "possible".. in fact, I'm sure it's been done. There's no way the FAA would give it the nod to be anything other than experimental, but it's not a heck of a lot different than people who've done similar engine UPgrades on Tomahawks. Just move the seats back (or throw a sandbag behind them).. the engine isn't that much heavier.

I was thinking about a 6cly C182 engine..  Roll Eyes
 
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Reply #6 - Dec 11th, 2008 at 7:05am

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Ok.. here's what I'd do:

Swap the key engine elements...

Add 150lbs to both the empy weight, and max weights, but leave the CG alone (pretending that your sandbag is the perfect weight, placed perfectly)...


Increase the prop MOI slightly and and icrease its fixed pitch by a few degrees (this would be the custom prop you'd probably need)(the extra HP would run wild on the light, 150 prop)

Test and tweak   Cheesy   if it's only a little bit harder to fly, I'd leave it like that...  

Lastly, edit the paint-job to have "EXPERIMENTAL" posted clearly near both doors..  And edit the panel bitmaps with a similar warning.. Cool
 
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Reply #7 - Dec 11th, 2008 at 7:08am

ShaneG   Offline
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Sounds good to me. Will do!  Smiley
 
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Reply #8 - Dec 11th, 2008 at 7:24am

ShaneG   Offline
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Flies like a dream, and got the little bit of extra speed! Thanks for the help. Smiley I think it's even easier to land now also. Cheesy
 
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Reply #9 - Dec 11th, 2008 at 8:00am

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Excellent !  Smiley

And what's really neat about it, is taking the time to do it realistically.  Cool

You could have gotten the same results by simply increasing the prop-thrust factor. But what's the point of realistic simming if you do stuff like that.. ?

Heck, you can edit the C172 so that the damage speed is 800knots.. and increase the prop-thrust ridiculously, and have a super-sonic, single-engine prop plane  Roll Eyes
 
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Reply #10 - Dec 11th, 2008 at 9:29am

Goofyfish   Offline
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Brett_Henderson wrote on Dec 11th, 2008 at 7:05am:
Lastly, edit the paint-job to have "EXPERIMENTAL" posted clearly near both doors..  And edit the panel bitmaps with a similar warning.. Cool


The paint shop is WAAAY ahead of the mechanics on this project.

http://i34.tinypic.com/2e4wy93.jpg

I'm not a pilot, so this all an exercise for my entertainmentand I am looking to replace the the AEIO-360-A1D configuration for an AEIO-540-K1A5.

I made changes to cylinder displacement, HP and compression ratio. I also changed the pitch range of the prop so that it does not run over 3K. I have adjusted the aircraft weights by an additional 137 lbs and will be looking at the aircraft body model later to look for the additional 10" I'll need for the length of the motor. I was considering reducing the fuel available to offset the engine weight.

It's a wild ride as it is... throttle touch has to be light or it runs away with you. The IAS pegs at 230 and will fly there a LONG time before the craft comes apart. The "never exceed" speed in the reference is 210 so it feels unrealistic. Can I bump this so that overspeed causes tragic results sooner? What else? How is fuel consumption calculated?  Should I change props? Stay with the constant speed or change to a fixed pitc? Two blades? Three? Where can I adjust for the effects of torque in the config file? Will Luke and Laura ever find true happiness together?

Smiley

Here is where I am so far, I really appreciate you taking the time to look.  Happy flying!

Rick




[piston_engine]                                 //                          LYC AEIO-540-K1A5
power_scalar = 1.0                           //                          Six-cylinder air-cooled horizontally opposed engine
cylinder_displacement = 130             //90                       Bore: 5.125 in
compression_ratio = 10                    //original: 8.7          Stroke: 4.375 in
number_of_cylinders = 6                  //6                         Displacement: 541 cu in                    
max_rated_rpm = 2700                   //original: 2700        Weight: 440 lb
max_rated_hp = 322                        //200
fuel_metering_type = 0
cooling_type = 0                                
normalized_starter_torque = .32       
turbocharged = 0                  
max_design_mp = 0                  //29.9
min_design_mp = 0                  //9
critical_altitude = 0
emergency_boost_type = 0
emergency_boost_mp_offset = 0
emergency_boost_gain_offset = 0
fuel_air_auto_mixture = 0
auto_ignition = 0
emergency_boost_duration = 0
max_rpm_mechanical_efficiency_scalar = 1
idle_rpm_mechanical_efficiency_scalar = 1
max_rpm_friction_scalar = 1
idle_rpm_friction_scalar = 1

[propeller]                                       //                    Hartzell 81HC-C2YK-4CF/FC7666A-2 constant speed prop
thrust_scalar = 1
propeller_type = 0
propeller_diameter = 6.1
propeller_blades = 2
propeller_moi = 3.4
beta_max = 50     //original: 65
beta_min = 15     //original: 15
min_gov_rpm = 405
prop_tc = 0.01
gear_reduction_ratio = 1
fixed_pitch_beta = 25
low_speed_theory_limit = 77.1402982083445
prop_sync_available = 0
prop_deice_available = 1
prop_feathering_available = 0
prop_auto_feathering_available = 0
min_rpm_for_feather = 700
beta_feather = 88.5
power_absorbed_cf = 0.9
defeathering_accumulators_available = 0
prop_reverse_available = 0
minimum_on_ground_beta = 1
minimum_reverse_beta = -14
rotation = 1
 

Let's get one thing straight. There's a big difference between a pilot and &&an aviator. One is a technician; the other is an artist in love with flight. &&&&— E. B. Jeppesen
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Reply #11 - Dec 11th, 2008 at 10:29am

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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This stuff is a blast, when you take the time to do it realistically.

I'll research more later.. but right off the top of my head, I see that your cylinder displacement is way off.

The '360' and '540' engines have the same cylinder displacement (90)..

Consequently, a 4cyl engine has 360 cubic inches total (4 X 90)

The 6cly engine has 540 cubic inches total (6 X 90)

You've upped the per cylinder displacent to 130.. AND added two cylinders.. What you've got is a mythical  IO-780   (6 X 130) Huh

There  IS a '720', but its an 8cyl engine (8 X 90)

You've got the right idea though, by not just grabbing numbers out the air..   Here's a good site to look at..

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/
 
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Reply #12 - Dec 11th, 2008 at 10:52am

Goofyfish   Offline
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Gotcha on the displacemen and thanks for the link!
The FAA Type Certified Data Sheet for these engines lists them as:

6 cylinder, - horizontally opposed air cooled direct drive,with fuel injection,
tuned induction, downdraft cooling and bottom side exhaust ports."

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5CrgMakeModel.nsf/0/FFAE5A2BB...


Look forward to your other thoughts and will make some changes when I get home.


Rick


(edit for better link)
« Last Edit: Dec 11th, 2008 at 4:30pm by Goofyfish »  

Let's get one thing straight. There's a big difference between a pilot and &&an aviator. One is a technician; the other is an artist in love with flight. &&&&— E. B. Jeppesen
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Reply #13 - Dec 11th, 2008 at 11:42am

DaveSims   Offline
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There is a 150 hp version of the 150/152 in real life.
 
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Reply #14 - Dec 11th, 2008 at 4:18pm

Goofyfish   Offline
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So I'm fiddling with the cfg file and reading more about the engine and the 130mm question kept nagging at me.
your explanation of 90x6 = 540 is perfectly reasonable to me. But the data sheet on the AEIO-540 engine is:

"Bore and stroke, in.  -  5.125 X 4.375"     5.125 in = 130.175 mm


Color me puzzled...
 

Let's get one thing straight. There's a big difference between a pilot and &&an aviator. One is a technician; the other is an artist in love with flight. &&&&— E. B. Jeppesen
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Reply #15 - Dec 11th, 2008 at 5:15pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Goofyfish wrote on Dec 11th, 2008 at 4:18pm:
So I'm fiddling with the cfg file and reading more about the engine and the 130mm question kept nagging at me.
your explanation of 90x6 = 540 is perfectly reasonable to me. But the data sheet on the AEIO-540 engine is:

"Bore and stroke, in.  -  5.125 X 4.375"     5.125 in = 130.175 mm


Color me puzzled...



Whoa.. slow down. How did millimeters get into this  Huh

The formula for the volume (displacement) of a cylinder is:  Volume = Pi x r^2 x h   ... or, "Pi times the radius squared times height".

The bore (diameter) is 5.125, so the radius (1/2 that), is 2.563

2.563 squared = 6.569 times 3.141 (Pi) = 20.63 times hieght (stroke) of 4.375 = 90.26

2.563 X 2.563 X 3.141 X 4.375 = 90.26

90.26 cubic inches....   You could do the whole thing in centimeters too (millimeters / 10), and come up with CCs (cubic centimeters)..but you can't mix-n-match unit types..  Cheesy


Edit:..  For the record  90.26 cubic inches = 1479 cubic centimeters
 
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Reply #16 - Dec 11th, 2008 at 6:57pm

Goofyfish   Offline
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Brett_Henderson wrote on Dec 11th, 2008 at 5:15pm:
How did millimeters get into this  Huh


Because "90" was quite obviously not inches, so I made the invalid assumption that it was millimeters.  Smiley

Thanks for educating me!
 

Let's get one thing straight. There's a big difference between a pilot and &&an aviator. One is a technician; the other is an artist in love with flight. &&&&— E. B. Jeppesen
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Reply #17 - Dec 11th, 2008 at 8:44pm

Goofyfish   Offline
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But.. what DID come out in all the reading today is that it is a dead project unless I am going to carry goatskin sacks of fuel on board with me.  The larger engine needs 4.3 cu ft of space behind it where the fuel tank is.  7.5 gal per cubic foot... 32 gallons... and only a 25 gallon tank to start with.

Shocked   But I learned a few things along the way, so not wasted time!


Rick
 

Let's get one thing straight. There's a big difference between a pilot and &&an aviator. One is a technician; the other is an artist in love with flight. &&&&— E. B. Jeppesen
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Reply #18 - Dec 11th, 2008 at 9:17pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Quote:
But I learned a few things along the way, so not wasted time!


Absolutely !
 
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Reply #19 - Jan 10th, 2009 at 8:42pm

MeekRN   Offline
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times 4 cyclinders?
 
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Reply #20 - Jan 10th, 2009 at 8:59pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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MeekRN wrote on Jan 10th, 2009 at 8:42pm:
times 4 cyclinders?



Hu ?
 
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