the truth is gunny, its going to be virtually impossible for anyone here to tell you where its coming from and what could be wrong. There are so many differant things that could be causing it that guessing would be no help.
Best bet really is, take it to a garage you trust and get them to look it over. And pretty soon if its as bad as it looks.

dont leave it too long, seriously.
I had a simmilar problem, then after driving only 90 miles my engine basically ate itself and coughed it out onto the road. End result was the car being scrapped because it would have cost more than the car was worth to fix.
Again if you even think the gasket is going get it checked, theres no way of knowing when its going to go, because it will just go and your going to need a new engine.

Only advice I can give is to thoroughly clean the engine and then try to spot the leak. There are dyes you can put in the the oil that show under black light. After reading it's past abuse, I wouldn't be surprised if it has a cracked oil pan.

Gunny04 wrote on Feb 18^th, 2007 at 6:56pm:

That's a typical symptom of a leaking cylinder head gasket. I would get it fixed ASAP.

PS. Don't want to worry you but it's more than likely a cracked cylinder head.

No oil in coolant now that I know of and I often check, this was obviously on the carfax report thing they looked up or something. I'm pretty sure that was all taken care of because the mechanics said not to worry about just make sure it doesnt do leak oil into the coolant and it doesnt, oil just drips out of the oil pan on the sides down the fuel line etc...

Gunny

Yep I know cars need oil and it has to be checked constantly.... my mother is good about that stuff, my dad? Let the last cars oil filter foul up (nearly 2 years) and it seized.... yea my dads a real genious isn't he?

Gunny

Plenty of options as to where it is leaking.  First simple thing to check though, the drain plug on the oil pan, make sure its little rubber washer isnt falling apart, cheap to replace, had a similar amount leaking from my old truck due to that washer falling off.  Oil pan gasket leaking, also a simple fix.  Or as already mentioned the oil filter might not be on quite right or the seal is messed up.  Shops will charge an arm and a leg to fix even the most simple problems when most you can fix yourself in a matter of minutes.

Could be more serious but could be very simple.  For 5 bucks or less you could get a new pan gasket and a little drain plug washer.  Then change the oil and new filter.  If still leaking then you know its a bigger problem.

Just dont do like some people (and a lot of shops) and take a wrench to the new filter and tighten it till it wont go any farther, just put it on by hand with one good twist after it feels tight.  To tight and the seal breaks.

Quote:

I don't know about GM cars but I've never seen a rubber gasket on a drain plug.  Usually drain plugs want to be torqued on with some force and a rubber gasket would leak if torqued to that extent.  I have seen soft metal gaskets (aluminum) and rubber coated metal gaskets, but never rubber.

Some (many?) oil pan gaskets can be very expensive to replace as often cross members and engine mounts get in the way requiring the engine to be unbolted and lifted in the engine bay.  Access to oil pans can be rather difficult, but I don't know about the Grand Prix. 

Another thing that's often easy to fix (depending on access) are valve cover gaskets.  If the leak is coming out around the head then this could be the problem.  Also, check for spark plug wire boots covered in oil.

The first step to fixing an oil leak is finding an oil leak.  Clean the engine from under the car as best as possible (try a degreaser to get the nasty stuff off), drive it around, and inspect.  Ceretainly some photos of oil spots on the ground won't be much help in troubleshooting, except to verify that yes, the oil is indeed leaking out (as opposed to being burned in the engine or leaking in to the coolant).

gunny i dont know your car too well, but my car idles at several hundred RPM's I believe. I'd need to double check it. whenever the engine is running its going to be more than 0rpm.

possibly a faulty O2 sensor? or new air filter needed.

Hey Gunny, when was the fuel filter last changed? One other possibility might be water in the gas. Try running a can of "Heat" brand fuel additive on the next fill-up. O2 sensors have nothing to do with idle. They don't even work until heated up by the exhaust gases and are only used to fine tune the air/fuel mixture and then all they do is switch on and off repeatedly. They normally get replaced from being plugged up rather than by failure.

Strange idle typicaly caused by something in the fuel system, replace the fuel filter and see if that helps.  If the car is fuel injected then get a bottle of cleaner ($1-$5) and put in the gas tank.  Clogged injectors can cause a lot of problems.  Some vehicals are just strange when they idle.  My old 89 Bronco usualy idles anywhere from 800-1500 RPM and never stays consistant.  My mom has a 97 Mercury and its the same way with the not so smooth idle.  Also if your weather has been very cold like we've had down here then most vehicals are going to have a hard time idling till they start to warm up, till the past few days we were in the -5°F> range at night, both my Bronco and my F-150 required a foot on the gas for a minute or so before it would idle without sputtering or dying.

Re: bad idle, always start with the basics (the free stuff).

Open the air box and check the air filter.  Go over the entire intake and check for obvious vacuum leaks (look for vacuum tubes which may have come loose, re-tighten all the hose clamps, etc).  Pull all your plug wires and (if you have a spark plug socket and torque wrench) all your spark plugs and visually inspect them for anything weird.  With the plugs out turn the engine over once or twice and sniff for gas in the cylinders (do NOT leave the plugs anywhere near the holes or they'll ignite the gas vapors).  Check for spark.  Watch the idle controller and see if it's doing its thing while the engine is trying to idle.

Once you've done all that free stuff then try replacing things like fuel filters.

There is a chance (perhaps small) that the oil problem and bad idle are related.  If you've got a bad enough oil leak in the valve cover you could have plugs covered in oil which could be hindering your spark.  It's a long shot but it has happened.

I'll cross my fingers and hope for something as simple as a pan or valve-cover gasket. I think you can rule out head gasket or a cracked head, as oil in the coolant would also mean coolant in the oil (the oil would start looking like a chocolate milk shake).

My gut instinct, at 140,000 miles, says, "rear main seal".. 

hmmm rear main seal? the car should have 141,00 or 142,000 miles on it by now. The oil goes in Golden honey colored.... comes out looking the same. Nothing is leaking into the oil.... just oil leaking out. I'll just go out there tomorrow with my camera and take pictures of the various filters and oil leak etc...

Gunny

Gunny04 wrote on Feb 21^st, 2007 at 9:23pm:


I'd be suprised that a modern (EFI, non carborated) engine would have any issues unique to idling cold versus idling hot.  It should idle just fine cold and rev without any problem.  I had a car of similar vintage that displayed similar problems (only when cold) and it turned out to be related to the ignition.  This car (and probably yours) had a distributor (instead of a more modern distributor-less ignition).  In my case the distributor was simply worn out and the plug wires needed some help.

Here's how to test.  Get a spray bottle of water.  Start the car cold and in a dark place.  Spray water on/around the plug wires and distributor.  If the car dies or you see a visible spark then you need to replace whatever sparked.

I think that if the car is having a hard time idling at cold and it has a distributor than that distributor should be strongly suspect.  At cold the mechanical clearances between points and pickups are larger and it becomes harder to throw a spark across them to fire the spark plugs.  This would be consistant with the symptom you described of the "engine only running on a few cylinders" as the spark gap would probably be worse for one or two cylinders than for the others causing those not to fire.  Once the engine heats up these clearances close up a bit and the engine probably runs fine, perhaps a little off if things are REALLY bad.  If you know what you're looking for you can visually check the rotor/points/pickup to see how bad they look.  (another free troubleshoot.  Always do the free stuff before spending money on parts).

Certainly this is more likely than a fuel filter problem (which should be more of a problem at fast engine speeds where the demand for fuel flow is higher versus idle with its low fuel flow requirements).

Gunny04 wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2007 at 4:00pm:

Not quite sure what a tune-up buys you with an EFI (Electronic Fuel Injected) car.  In the old days a tune up would actually tune the carbs and this had a huge impact on how the car ran.  Now 'days they just don't need to be (and can't be) tuned.

I'm sure a mechanic could help with your idling problem so perhaps a trip to the mechanic is in order.  You can have him give you a quote on that oil leak as well.  

Yeah, the air filter will be under that big black thing.  

I unbolted the air filter and it wont come off  Hmm did I miss something? It hasnt been checked in ages, the bolts are corroded, rusted and were hard to get out....

Gunny

Quote:
Not true LOL
it took almost 30 minutes of cursing yelling and banging to remove one of my disc brakes. And that was coated in the stuff.

Craig. wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2007 at 5:41pm:

Yikes.  Perhaps in the future you shouldn't be coating your brakes with grease...    Just kidding.  Disk brakes either come right off with just a little convincing or they weld themselves on good.  They just get too darned hot and anti-seize can only do so much.  Did you use the copper based stuff?  I've heard from others that it tends to work better in higher temp applicaitons.

The cover itself wont come off.... I think its stuck, Yea the car has a distributor of some kind that I do know. Wow thanks for all the tips here.... That filter hasnt been off in a long time, So when I do manage to get it off tomorrow I'll either not find a filter, or something that looks like a filter thats pitched black or something strange. I want to change the plug wires, spark plugs, fuel and air filter, get the radiator flushed (just for good measure) etc.... but its a front wheel drive.... I don't think I can get the rear spark plugs out, I am not even going to attempt it (Looks to me like you'd pretty much need to take the motor out or pull it forward just to get to em) The only way that stuff will get fixed (if its bad) is to take it in and spend hundreds for mechanics to deal with it. Now if it were rear wheel drive I could handle that.... these sideways motors are irritating....

Gunny

Gunny, do you have the 3.1 or the 3.4? If it's the 3.1, I'll go check to see if I can find a way to get the rear plugs out, but the 3.4 should be similar.

As for the air filter, just undo the bolts and hose clamp and slip the hose off the filter housing. The top of the filter housing should come right off after that. Granted this is working off of memory of the GM 3.1 V6 and actually looking at the engine in my car, so I may be wrong because my car is 6 years newer and has the GM I4 instead of the 3.1 V6.

I'll get it off when the wind isn't blowing 20-45MPH, the sun is out, and the temps are up... I was outside in sleep pants, a t-shirt with a light spring jacket, took me 15 minutes just to get the bolts out and loose etc. It is in fact the 3.1L V6. I can get anything off if I really want too, I just wasn't sure how it came apart.... I'll look at it tomorrow if its warmer and see what shape its in. If I could find a way to get the spark plugs out of the rear I bet changing those and the plug wires would solve about 50% of the problems.... I think they are fouled, they clear up if the car drives on the highway constantly (for a few hours at 75MPH) but in town driving? thats when the car just plunders and runs like crap etc. Thanks for the very quick and informitive replys....

Gunny (I'll definatly come back here the next time I have vehicle troubles)

You may also want to look at going to the local Pepboy's/Autozone and buying a repair manual for your car. The Haynes manuals are pretty detailed and will tell you how to do maintenance and replacement on most parts of the car.

Underinflated tires shouldn't cause any direct effects on the engine. They will make it work harder, most notably during cruise, where the engine would normally be at almost idle, it will be significantly higher due to the increased resistance, and if the tires are low for an extended amount of time, this could lead to premature wear on the engine, but I don't know how long this would need to be, in all likelihood, more than just a few weeks.

Underinflated tires, are however, insanely dangerous to drive on, as it leads to increased wear on the tires, causing them to fail, either by balding/cupping, or catastrophically if left alone for a very long time, before they would normally be replaced. Also, if they are severely underinflated, bumps taken at sufficient speed can cause sufficient compression in the tire to damage the rim and/or wheel itself. I would check the tires to make sure they have enough tread left on them, since you don't know how long they have been low.