Simviation Forum - Career ending mistake?

Reply #30 - Dec 19^th, 2006 at 11:34am

expat Offline
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Hagar wrote on Dec 19^th, 2006 at 10:38am:

expat wrote on Dec 19^th, 2006 at 10:31am:

[quote]Let us not forget gentlemen, it is only by the grace of your god that you at some point.....................

Indeed. I consider myself very fortunate not to have been responsible for killing or seriously injuring anyone - to the best of my knowledge. However, I'm well aware that I could still be brought to book for something that might have happened years ago before I retired.

That is another very good point Hagar, time does not heal in the aviation world. Why............there is always a paper trail to come back an bite you in the rear. It may be a very big and very deep smoking hole in the ground, but back in the office there is a stack of nice clean paperwork with your prints and signature all over it.

Matt

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Reply #31 - Dec 19^th, 2006 at 11:41am

Hagar Offline
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Brett_Henderson wrote on Dec 19^th, 2006 at 11:28am:

I did qualify it as "weird" and "mine"

I can't defend that school of thought .. other than to say that I still think every other B1 pilot is more likely to screw up now.. than is he.

Sorry Brett. I can't get my head round that line of thought. Every other B-1 pilot should be forced to read a transcript of this incident & possibly learn a lesson from it. It seems obvious to me that if the correct routine procedures had been followed the incident would never have happened. That is the very reason these procedures exist in the first place.

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Reply #32 - Dec 19^th, 2006 at 11:44am

expat Offline
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Brett_Henderson wrote on Dec 19^th, 2006 at 11:28am:

I did qualify it as "weird" and "mine"

I can't defend that school of thought .. other than to say that I still think every other B1 pilot is more likely to screw up now.. than is he. And maybe the pilot in me doesn't like the idea of another pilot being grounded.. ALTHOUGH, this does constitute GROSS negligence and probably got a few other people into trouble too. And the fact that it's such an important and coveted seat means there'd be no problem filling it with a qualified pilot.

I'm just glad I don't have to make the call. And I'm STILL dumbfounded that THAT plane could get anywhere near the ground, in landing configuration, with the gear up Huh

The problem is we are trying to discuss a subject here without knowing anything about the pilots background. What sort of person he is, is he a rule maker or law breaker or plain tired at the end of an 11 trip . At the end of the day, clipped wings is something that in a professional pilot we really do not want to see. Saying that, and I make not comparison between the the two pilots, but who remembers the B52 that crashed at an air display. The list of mistakes and errors took place over a long period of time and that should have grounded a cowboy pilot that in the end got people killed (Sorry the only link I could find to that incident was a youtube of the crash and that does not help this conversation).

Matt

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Reply #33 - Dec 19^th, 2006 at 12:25pm

Hagar Offline
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Read THIS

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Reply #34 - Dec 19^th, 2006 at 12:55pm

Brett_Henderson Offline
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Honest.. I'm really not trying to defend it.. it's just my gut reaction. I'ts weird I tell ya.. weeeiiirrd.. ecpecially coming from me.

My right brain agrees with you 100%.. He shouldn't only be grounded; there should be punitive action.. even criminal (militarily).

I'd make a lousy boss (officer)..

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Reply #35 - Dec 19^th, 2006 at 12:56pm

expat Offline
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Hagar wrote on Dec 19^th, 2006 at 12:25pm:

Read THIS

It does appear that the copilot is up to his neck right now.
Takes prescription drug with prescription.
Flying an aircraft he is not cleared to fly (all be it a technicality)
And can't tell right from left............Left, gear switch, right, bombs away.

In the words of a certain Hollywood block buster, "He will be lucky to be flying rubber dog turds out of Hong Kong after this".

Matt

PETA People Eating Tasty Animals.

B1 Boeing 737-800 and Dash8 Q-400

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Reply #36 - Dec 19^th, 2006 at 12:56pm

RitterKreuz Offline
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[/quote]That's all very well in theory but the Captain is not forced to take any notice of his crew. I've read of several incidents where the SIC was scared stiff of suggesting anything in case he got his head bitten off & a bad report. This was with a well-known civil airline where some senior captains were treated as gods & their second pilots depended on them for a good report to further their careers & hopefully become gods themselves. I'm sure the same sort of thing goes on in the services.

If a crew is used to ignoring checklists & warning signals there is bound to be an accident at some time. It's inevitable. It's the Captain's responsibility to make sure that procedures are carried out correctly, hence my remark that he ran a slack ship. I stand by that opinion & have to wonder what else was ignored by this officer & his crew. [/quote]

I dont know about the USAF, but some companies have since addressed this even if in some small way... I'll expand on that... if the SIC in the case of this B1 bomber is heard on the CVR all the way down final bitching about the gear being down and the captain bellied her in anyway... poof like magic the SIC is cleared of nearly all wrong doing - except that he didnt lower the gear himself. my book says "offer any information to the PIC regarding the safty of the flight, or the normal operation of the flight until the captain acts upon that information, or the situation is resolved, or until the flight is terminated." therefore, if i was in this situation, in front of the review board the CVR would most cetrainly go something like this...

ME: "recommend gear down"
CA: "not yet"
ME: "Recommend gear down now"
CA: "not yet hold on"
ME: "Go around... the aircraft is not configured for landing there chief"
CA: "Naaaa"
impact the runway and start skidding
ME "Maintain centerline boss!"

(there is some humor there but it would go a lot like that)

About these "reports", they are usually attached to the release and are only printed with the flight release if the reportable crewman has been with the company for less than 12 calendar months. I have found that 90% of captains pull it off... crinkle it up... and throw it away right after it prints. The 10% that dont i will grab the paper work myself and tear it off, tear the flight attendant's papaer work off and give it to her, tear the station copy that stays on the ground and give it to him, put the flight release on the panel and holding the report up say "do you plan on using this?" 99% of the time the answer is "no" upon which i immediately trash it. the 1% of the time they plan on filling it out it is always good remarks. After the first year is up, be as much of a pain in the arse as you want, it takes a lot of complaining from multiple captains to get you canned.... just like it takes a lot of complaining from F.O.s to get a captain canned - and even then the cannee would have union protection and get his job back unless he was proven to have done something procedurally wrong in which case being a jerk is NOT proceduraly wrong LOL

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Reply #37 - Dec 19^th, 2006 at 1:19pm

expat Offline
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That is pretty much what the copilot of the Hapag Air bus did when the captain decided to fly with the gear down after a selection problem. The aircraft flew on, except the captain did not take into account the new fuel requirement. The copilot pointed this out several times and even suggested divert airports. They where to fly from Khania, Greece to Hannover, Germany. The crew decided to continue the flight with the gear not fully raised, but with a diversion to Munich, Germany. Due to a shortage of fuel,the crew later diverted to Vienna. Both engines quit operating about 14 miles (22.5 km) from the airport. The crew was able to restart one engine for a short period of time and was able to make it to the airport. The aircraft sustained substantial damage to the left win and engine after landing about 500m (0.3 miles) short of the runway. None of the eight crew members or 142 passengers were seriously injured.

Naturally it was all over the German papers being a German company. The copilot was not so deep in it because the CVR was full of him trying to get the captain to divert for fuel. We did get a small industry joke from this. Hapags web site is www.hlf.de which translated into Why.why.why. Have low fuel. Declare emergency.

Matt

PETA People Eating Tasty Animals.

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Reply #38 - Dec 21^st, 2006 at 5:55pm

Fitter Offline
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The fuselage metal have melted in the asphault Shocked

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