Did a search on a widely used program for downloading files today (not going to say which incase anybody decides to try to download some) and found over 22 types of Payware available for download (including the real air spit and lago tornado.) and probably some more that didn't have the makers name on it. This is just as bad as the people on ebay who charge for freeware, here you get payware free.
So perhaps freeware should be called payware from now on and payware should be called freeware.
To think that people put so much effort into making freeware and payware aircraft then so many people just rip them off. Hopefully there will be something on fs10 to help prevent payware piracy but I don't know what but hopefully it will help stop this.

Mods, If this is in the wrong place please feel free to move it.

It's hard to regulate much on p2p file sharing programs. They're also dangerous to use. I tried using one a while back, and downloaded more fake files, and viruses then I wanted. I did find some interesting things, but in the end, I dumped the program and havn't used it in a couple years

Sucks big time, but torrents are the best way for me get all my linux stuff

Piracy will be around as long as computers will be, But personally 40-60 bucks a plane, When I can buy a game for the same I'm shocked, Only reason I get payware is friends/Family ask me what I want and buy it..... But maybe payware comps should take Alphasim for example! Cheers, Gunny (payware is too damn expencive sometimes)

EDIT: I think Payware companies rip the people off, but just my oppinion and nothing more

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+1...I agree to that 8)

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Seems like a lotta wasted money/Effort..... I've had to deal with some security stuff that MADE me turn off half of my comps programs just to run it..... Wasteful if you ask me and it irritates me, cheers, Gunny

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The texture stuff is mostly by PSS...that has me mad too...but when you think of it...you're flying an aircraft worth more than $60 million for a mere $50...and that too with almost all systems modelled (I am talking about the PMDG 747), I wouldn't say that's a bad price...that's just my opinion....I usually wait for a month or two for the prices to drop...then go ahead and by products...I also have a on of Commercial airliners since that is what I mainly fly.... 8)

Yeah I do think prices are kind of high on aircraft compared to other payware addons. I have no idea how well the payware market is doing but but remember game companys can sell ther products for say 50$ each instead of 200 because they sell a lot of copies. Payware dosen't have that kind of market and dosen't sell as much so to make a profit prices are higher. Still I would think if they lowered price they would sell more and it would all balance out and probably get more of a profit.

Anyway I say Microsoft ditch making their own aircraft, contract a few payware companies Like PMDG etc to make aircraft and or scenery.

To expand on what John just said (which I believe is absolutely true):

Payware products are most likely price inelastic. That is, the quantity demanded of them changes very little following big changes in price.
This is due mainly to addiction I would think. For example, payware junkies like Ashar. Even if the price of payware was increased by 50% he would still buy nearly as many add-ons.
However, if the price of payware is halved the quantity demanded of Payware products would not double as one might expect. It might increase by a quarter, because the market is so small for payware products and the number of addicted payware junkies is limited. Many people strongly believe in only freeware.



Look at this Market diagram I drew in photoshop. Demand is inelastic. As you can see, the large change in price from P1 to P2 causes a rather small change in demand from D1 to D2.
Because the total revenue is depicted by this formula:
TR = Quantity demanded X Price per unit
The area under the coloured lines represent the total revenue payware companies earn.

So, as we can see at a higher price (the red line) the area under the line (total revenue) is much larger than for a low price (blue line).

Payware companies are earning for themselves as large a revenue as possible at high prices. We discussed recently how this is an efficient way of allocating payware products.

An important concept:
Demand at a given price measures people's willingness to buy a product at that price.
So from this we conclude: people who buy the payware at high prices value it more than people who do not, hence it is a fair and efficient method of distribution which ensures that people who value the product enough will have it and people who dont will not.

However, this is of course a big generalisation, as economics thrives on generalisations.

Rest assured then, that obviously there is a price at which demand is no longer inelastic and demand would plummet beyond that price. So rest assured, the price will not keep rising forever.

Thats my economics revision for today... 

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You forgot to mention the every 3 year service that costs $250 to 400, and the autowinder box which for a decent one is about $800, however if you do take care of a Rolex it will be a hand me down for generations, and they do keep impecable time. That and while I wouldnt buy one personally, I have yet to turn down a high tier watch as a gift.

The 14k/ss Submariner is a gorgeous watch (just have to watch out for ogling eyes lol)

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To be fair, PSS are just capitalising on the people in the market that must have everything straight or very soon after it comes out. Wait a few months and most of their products are published (boxed) by Just Flight...

Just my 2 cents here.  My copy of COF cost $34 at the time.  When it came out it was $48-$54 depending where you buy, $48 at Walmart initially ($29.97  now) Anyway, I would have no problem at all paying nearly double the initial release price for the sim IF all the included aircraft were of PMDG, Flight1, Feelthere etc. quality, detail, and systems implementation.  All airliners with complete functiona overheads, avionics, FMC's etc.  All GA aircraft with exact duplication of realworld GPS (think realityxp here).  Yes, let them indeed make it all as real as it gets for REAL and charge an according price and my debit card would still clear leather.  Just my 2 cents.

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If every aircraft in FS was up to the quality of PMDG then its likely that only the very well off would be able to afford it.
A. Because the initial unit price would be in the 100's ($/£).
B. The computer needed to actually needed to run it would  be far in excess of the specs of the current machines most of us run.
C. Even future computers would struggle much as most of the current crop do with the the current sim.

Stop moaning about the price of payware and the quality of FS. If you can't afford the payware then do what most of us do and  SAVE.
The current version of FS IS as real as it gets for the CURRENT crop of machines if you want to have it any more real then go book yourself some time in a Professional simulator. Or upgrade/ improve your machine so you can up the settings. Either way it's going to cost.

I know which way I prefer. I've Saved to improve both my machine and buy the payware that I want. I'm sure most of you could do the same.

FS_Pilot you obviously didn't get the point of my thread.

If the payware manufacturers had their products incorporated into FS it would either mean that the product would need to be diluted to a point where the majority of computers would be able to run it or, the sim would have a price for the consumer that most of us wouldn't be able to afford or be able to afford the computers to run it on.

As FS stands, it runs reasonably on most peoples computers it doesn't cost too much and the aircraft included are reasonable replications of the real thing, within the constraints of the sim.

It's a fantastic base for both free and payware developers to improve on.

And yes your observation is right I do have a bias toward payware ...... I go out and earn the money to pay for it and apart from the occasional beer it's the only luxury I allow myself.

Why would it be hard to run? Most payware I've had (Scenery) Has made my comp run better, Now My comp has ran FS Fairly well with paywar (since the day I bought it and it aint no luxury) so why wouldnt all payware quality run? my 6200 I got for 39.99 grouped with this 1 and half year old comp gets 15-40FPS in most places when it works on max settings...... I dont think it would cause Major issues really with technology, However this is just my humble opinion! Cheers, Gunny

EDIT: Planes are the same but they tax it a little, until I got a new graphics card thats not exactly up to date!

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But if fs 2006 was more expensive to buy but had far higher quality stuff then we wouldnt have to buy as much payware and we could always just save for it, like you say about payware 
And the professional flight simulator would cost a lot more than fs so you would have to save even more. Then people will complain because they only got one hour for 100s of £ instead of fs2006 for life for the same price  8)

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Unless I'm mistaken, I think you missed the point about what he was saying about AlphaSim. Most of their aircraft are very cheap in comparison with other payware companies. Also, the range of aircraft they have is much greater than any payware company I know.

These are the numbers of aircraft each of these companies have for sale (excluding unreleased aircraft):
note, these figures could be wrong, I'm just counting, by 'hand', what is displayed on the product pages.

AlphaSim - 77
Aerosoft - 20
Captain Sim - 7
PMDG - 5 (if you include different variations of the aircraft)
RealAir - 2

I have to also agree with Gunny, by saying that AlphaSim should be taken for example. A great choice of aircraft, bound to suit any military aviator, and for much less than other payware developers would charge. Most of their aircraft are released at around $24.00 (£13.85), and the most expensive I've seen, was released at $30 (£17.31).

Me, however. I shall continue to stay away from payware 'til I have money stashed away that can be used for it. As long as there's perfectly good freeware...

I think the customer base for FS is fairly well established by now.  It is definatly not your X-box 360 crowd.  Most of them wouldn't have the patience to work with FS and learn procedure, navigation and techiques.  Also, there's no winning and loosing save for not crashing your flight.  With that established, I think it would be a right time for MS to amp up the product with more in depth default aircraft, better flight modeling and in general, more immersion in all areas.  The customer base being fairly well established would already own the hardware to run it effectively.  I can't speak for everyone but I know I would be pleased and probably not seeking add-ons either freeware or payware if the default planes were only just 80% implemented.  Hey, there's some things that are pointless to simulate on a PC sim (presurization, air-conditioning, etc).  An FMC with basic lateral navigation abilities, or even target altitudes for waypoints, a Garminish GPS that allowed you to enter the whole flight plan rather than merely direct-to.  A little bit better systems implemetation.  Hey, apu's aren't hard, freeware designers do it.  What about more ATC flexiblity?  There's a lot that could be improved on without incurring a lot of additional developement cost or even a higher spec machine to run it on.  There's always going to be payware and freeware no matter what MS does with the main platofrm.  It would be impossible to incorporate everything.  But, it is safe to say that unless MS want's to make the platform that much more in-depth, they should really remove the "as real as it get" catch phrase.

There definitly need to be work done to make the program more framerate friendly. As a Helicopter simmer there needs to be changes made to the ATC to include helicopter approaches to helipads instead if having to do standard aeroplane approaches. As an Aussie i would also like to see the addition of the millibar scale option for altimeters and to include this option in ATC readback.
FS_Pilot

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I think that overall "mass" payware quality is improving  (especially as to what I'm seeing coming down the pipeline that's not been released.)

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And you've just posed an interesting problem.

How many "newbies" are going to want to even enter the freeware content creation field as the bar gets raised higher and higher?

Right now, there are only a few developers, payware or freeware, that can create a full aircraft single-handedly!  Extreme detail in the outside and inside visual models, as well as spot on dials, knobs, levers, buttons, etc. are de rigeur....  What's a newbie to do?

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Yeah, textures can really make an aircraft look so much better. I downloaded textures for Mike's Bristol Britannia, which made the visual model 10x better than with the original textures. Adding a worn look with dirt and staining makes a repaint look much better, too. Much better than a slab of colour applied to the aircraft.

I'm currently trying my first high quality "all by myself" plane...

I had thought I was within a week or two of release a little while ago...err...wait, that was March. Even then the release won't be nearly payware quality...it will simply be good freeware.

I think it would be hard to find any talented designer that wouldn't side with the payware guys on how to value a new creation.

Until the day when somebody sticks a gun in your face and says "Pay up and fly this" you have a choice.

You may not like the choice because you really want a particular subject, but you do have a choice.

Actually, you have another choice. Flight Simulator Design Shop 3 is reasonably priced. Pay that one flat fee and you can have any plane you want for nothing but time.