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Clouding the issue... (Read 1628 times)
Mar 22
nd
, 2012 at 7:06pm
Fozzer
Offline
Colonel
An elderly FS 2004 addict!
Hereford. England. EGBS.
Posts: 24861
As I look at the wonderful screen shots in the forum...
....and admire the amazing cloud formations that the Sim Pilots are about to enter...
I pinch myself and remember this little gem of knowledge...>>>
http://www.flyingmag.com/blogs/flying-time/stay-out-clouds?cmpid=032012&spPodID=...
Paul...VFR, and staying well clear of clouds!...
...!
Dell Dimension 5000 BTX Tower. Win7 Home Edition, 32 Bit. Intel Pentium 4, dual 2.8 GHz. 2.5GB RAM, nVidia GF 9500GT 1GB. SATA 500GB + 80GB. Philips 17" LCD Monitor. Micronet ADSL Modem only. Saitek Cyborg Evo Force. FS 2004 + FSX. Briggs and Stratton Petrol Lawn Mower...Motor Bikes. Gas Cooker... and lots of musical instruments!.... ...!
Yamaha MO6,MM6,DX7,DX11,DX21,DX100,MK100,EMT10,PSR400,PSS780,Roland GW-8L v2,TR505,Casio MT-205,Korg CX3v2 dual manual,+ Leslie 760,M-Audio Prokeys88,KeyRig,Cubase,Keyfax4,Guitars,Orchestral,Baroque,Renaissance,Medieval Instruments.
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Reply #1 -
Mar 22
nd
, 2012 at 7:17pm
DaveSims
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Colonel
Clear Lake, Iowa
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Posts: 2453
Like the author of that article, I too have heard too many non instrument (real world, not sim) rated pilots discuss their "in cloud" experiences. It is no wonder why one of the larger causes of small aircraft crashes is VFR in IMC. Even as someone with decent instrument training, and soon to finish my rating I hope, I have great respect for what it takes to fly without reference to the outside world.
Dave
www.flymcw.com
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Reply #2 -
Mar 22
nd
, 2012 at 7:36pm
Fozzer
Offline
Colonel
An elderly FS 2004 addict!
Hereford. England. EGBS.
Posts: 24861
Cumulonimbus clouds on a warm summer day are beautiful to look at, whilst lying on the grass and gazing up at the sky...
..but then recall that terrifying drive you had, a few years ago, through miles and miles of dense Fog, with visibility close to zero, never quite knowing where you were on the road...or even if you were still on the road, and all the time waiting for the crash which would suddenly cut short your life, and everyone else with you!
Take my tip, keep out of bloody clouds..they will kill you!..
..!
Paul...long-time Motorcyclist...and Fog avoider!..
...!
Dell Dimension 5000 BTX Tower. Win7 Home Edition, 32 Bit. Intel Pentium 4, dual 2.8 GHz. 2.5GB RAM, nVidia GF 9500GT 1GB. SATA 500GB + 80GB. Philips 17" LCD Monitor. Micronet ADSL Modem only. Saitek Cyborg Evo Force. FS 2004 + FSX. Briggs and Stratton Petrol Lawn Mower...Motor Bikes. Gas Cooker... and lots of musical instruments!.... ...!
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Reply #3 -
Mar 22
nd
, 2012 at 7:41pm
Flying Trucker
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An Old Retired Rocking
Chair Flying Geezer
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Posts: 11425
Years ago I remember listening to a tape between a Private Pilot and Air Traffic Control where the Controller told the pilot to take his hands off the controls and sit on them.
The pilot was flying the aircraft directly at the lake.
The aircraft crashed into the lake with the loss of all family aboard.
Cheers...Happy Landings...Doug
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Reply #4 -
Mar 22
nd
, 2012 at 7:46pm
Fozzer
Offline
Colonel
An elderly FS 2004 addict!
Hereford. England. EGBS.
Posts: 24861
Flying Trucker wrote
on Mar 22
nd
, 2012 at 7:41pm:
Years ago I remember listening to a tape between a Private Pilot and Air Traffic Control where the Controller told the pilot to take his hands off the controls and sit on them.
The pilot was flying the aircraft directly at the lake.
The aircraft crashed into the lake with the loss of all family aboard.
..whilst flying in dense clouds, with poor visibility, and disorientated?
Clouds are beautiful to look at....but given half a chance, they will attack you, and kill you!...
...!
Paul....
...!
Dell Dimension 5000 BTX Tower. Win7 Home Edition, 32 Bit. Intel Pentium 4, dual 2.8 GHz. 2.5GB RAM, nVidia GF 9500GT 1GB. SATA 500GB + 80GB. Philips 17" LCD Monitor. Micronet ADSL Modem only. Saitek Cyborg Evo Force. FS 2004 + FSX. Briggs and Stratton Petrol Lawn Mower...Motor Bikes. Gas Cooker... and lots of musical instruments!.... ...!
Yamaha MO6,MM6,DX7,DX11,DX21,DX100,MK100,EMT10,PSR400,PSS780,Roland GW-8L v2,TR505,Casio MT-205,Korg CX3v2 dual manual,+ Leslie 760,M-Audio Prokeys88,KeyRig,Cubase,Keyfax4,Guitars,Orchestral,Baroque,Renaissance,Medieval Instruments.
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Reply #5 -
Mar 22
nd
, 2012 at 7:56pm
Flying Trucker
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An Old Retired Rocking
Chair Flying Geezer
Gender:
Posts: 11425
Hi Paul...
Taken from the Link:
Once called pilot vertigo or aviator’s vertigo, spatial disorientation is a persistent killer. Federal Aviation Administration statistics show that the condition is at least partly responsible for about 15 percent of general aviation accidents, most of which occur in clouds or at night, and 90 percent of which are fatal. According to a 2004 study, the average life expectancy of a non-instrument-rated pilot who flies into clouds or instrument conditions is 178 seconds.
http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/The_Disorient_Express.html
The military of most countries have done extensive research and testing on Vertigo along with Transport Canada who makes information available on their site.
Cheers...Happy Landings...Doug
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Reply #6 -
Mar 22
nd
, 2012 at 8:19pm
Fozzer
Offline
Colonel
An elderly FS 2004 addict!
Hereford. England. EGBS.
Posts: 24861
I manage my sim flight, flying in marginal VMC conditions reasonably successfully, using IFR rules...
...and providing that ALL my instruments are operating correctly...
..., and that I am reading them correctly!..
..
But the work load is enormous during normal level flight, and attempting to land under those condition is extremely daunting, to say the least!
Most of the time I try to stay well clear of clouds in all my GA, VFR flights.
Paul.
Dell Dimension 5000 BTX Tower. Win7 Home Edition, 32 Bit. Intel Pentium 4, dual 2.8 GHz. 2.5GB RAM, nVidia GF 9500GT 1GB. SATA 500GB + 80GB. Philips 17" LCD Monitor. Micronet ADSL Modem only. Saitek Cyborg Evo Force. FS 2004 + FSX. Briggs and Stratton Petrol Lawn Mower...Motor Bikes. Gas Cooker... and lots of musical instruments!.... ...!
Yamaha MO6,MM6,DX7,DX11,DX21,DX100,MK100,EMT10,PSR400,PSS780,Roland GW-8L v2,TR505,Casio MT-205,Korg CX3v2 dual manual,+ Leslie 760,M-Audio Prokeys88,KeyRig,Cubase,Keyfax4,Guitars,Orchestral,Baroque,Renaissance,Medieval Instruments.
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Reply #7 -
Mar 22
nd
, 2012 at 8:20pm
aeroart
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Colonel
Fly the good-old good
ones: Convairs, DC-6,
Connie
Michigan
Gender:
Posts: 91
Dave,
When you get your instrument rating, start by filing IFR when there isn't a cloud in the sky. Do this for a few trips, working your way up to progressively busier airports. This will get you used to working with the real Air Traffic Control system before you fly in IMC.
Good luck with your written and flight test.
Art
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Reply #8 -
Mar 22
nd
, 2012 at 8:20pm
DaveSims
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Colonel
Clear Lake, Iowa
Gender:
Posts: 2453
Flying Trucker wrote
on Mar 22
nd
, 2012 at 7:56pm:
Hi Paul...
Taken from the Link:
Once called pilot vertigo or aviator’s vertigo, spatial disorientation is a persistent killer. Federal Aviation Administration statistics show that the condition is at least partly responsible for about 15 percent of general aviation accidents, most of which occur in clouds or at night, and 90 percent of which are fatal. According to a 2004 study, the average life expectancy of a non-instrument-rated pilot who flies into clouds or instrument conditions is 178 seconds.
http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/The_Disorient_Express.html
The military of most countries have done extensive research and testing on Vertigo along with Transport Canada who makes information available on their site.
I read a more recent study that reduced that life expectancy to under 90 seconds. I can definitely see why. On a recent instrument flight, we had to descend through a 1,500 foot cloud deck on the approach, which took roughly three minutes. In that short time, I was stuggling with a slight case of vertigo. I had to force myself to believe the instruments and not my gut. I was more than happy when we broke out at 900 feet and could see ground again.
Dave
www.flymcw.com
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Reply #9 -
Mar 22
nd
, 2012 at 8:24pm
DaveSims
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Colonel
Clear Lake, Iowa
Gender:
Posts: 2453
aeroart wrote
on Mar 22
nd
, 2012 at 8:20pm:
Dave,
When you get your instrument rating, start by filing IFR when there isn't a cloud in the sky. Do this for a few trips, working your way up to progressively busier airports. This will get you used to working with the real Air Traffic Control system before you fly in IMC.
Good luck with your written and flight test.
Art
Fortunately I feel fairly comfortable with the ATC system. It isn't too difficult once you learn the system, as you can anticipate what ATC will tell you before they do. I did quite a bit of flight training in college, as I was a Pro Av major. I quit flying and switched majors to Aviation Management just before I should have finished my instrument. I had already taken both the instrument and commercial writtens at the time. Right now it is just trying to dust off the instruments and my brain.
Dave
www.flymcw.com
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Reply #10 -
Mar 22
nd
, 2012 at 8:41pm
Fozzer
Offline
Colonel
An elderly FS 2004 addict!
Hereford. England. EGBS.
Posts: 24861
DaveSims wrote
on Mar 22
nd
, 2012 at 8:24pm:
.....Fortunately I feel fairly comfortable with the ATC system. It isn't too difficult once you learn the system, as you can anticipate what ATC will tell you before they do.....
Lucky you..
..!
Its the sharp intake of breath that normally precedes what someone is going to say to me, that triggers me to pay attention before they actually speak...
That doesn't happen with Air Traffic Control!
The ATC command is like a sudden, unexpected, unintelligible machine-gun blast in my ear-oles....making me jump!...
...and I am forced to constantly repeat;..."Say again"...while struggling to find the Knee-board pencil, which has disappeared between the Rudder Pedals
...!
I can never, ever, get used to real ATC, from real Airfields!
Paul..."Would you repeat the instruction again...please!"...
...!
...
...
...!
Dell Dimension 5000 BTX Tower. Win7 Home Edition, 32 Bit. Intel Pentium 4, dual 2.8 GHz. 2.5GB RAM, nVidia GF 9500GT 1GB. SATA 500GB + 80GB. Philips 17" LCD Monitor. Micronet ADSL Modem only. Saitek Cyborg Evo Force. FS 2004 + FSX. Briggs and Stratton Petrol Lawn Mower...Motor Bikes. Gas Cooker... and lots of musical instruments!.... ...!
Yamaha MO6,MM6,DX7,DX11,DX21,DX100,MK100,EMT10,PSR400,PSS780,Roland GW-8L v2,TR505,Casio MT-205,Korg CX3v2 dual manual,+ Leslie 760,M-Audio Prokeys88,KeyRig,Cubase,Keyfax4,Guitars,Orchestral,Baroque,Renaissance,Medieval Instruments.
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Reply #11 -
Mar 22
nd
, 2012 at 8:56pm
GlobalHobo
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Colonel
I Fly ORFAir
Posts: 124
Quote:
Fortunately I feel fairly comfortable ...
"DANGER WILL ROBINSON!" Just when you start feeling "fairly comfortable" is when all hell breaks loose. Art had some good advice. When you're single-pilot and ATC starts handing you reroutes and you're bouncing around in the clag and you're digging for the chart to find some intersection you've never heard of (You don't blindly trust your GPS database, do you?) and you catch a glimpse of what you think is sky where your instruments say is ground and... well, you're gonna wish you'd had just a little more rehearsal time. I know I did. Sometimes still do.
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Reply #12 -
Mar 22
nd
, 2012 at 10:49pm
beaky
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Global Moderator
Uhhhh.... yup!
Newark, NJ USA
Gender:
Posts: 14187
I have no interest in flying in clouds without the rating. Always did fine "under the hood", but that is very different.
I've gotten "the leans" once, while flying solo VFR: climbing turn; looked at the chart then back outside a bit too quickly, and suddenly the instruments and actual horizon seemed to be lying to me. It passed in a moment, but in IMC it would have been a lot worse.
I've heard that in something like a Cub, when you find yourself in IMC, or need to descend through clouds, the best course of action is to chop the throttle, apply full nose-up trim, then put your feet under the seat, sit on your hands, and wait. Doesn't always work, as Doug's tale shows... sometimes you just need a lot of luck, like this poor bastard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3QU8J8YJIc
... the audio is real; the video is a pretty good dramatization using MSFS.
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Reply #13 -
Mar 23
rd
, 2012 at 5:30am
Fozzer
Offline
Colonel
An elderly FS 2004 addict!
Hereford. England. EGBS.
Posts: 24861
Scary, scary, scary...
...!
I must admit I was fixated on the HSI (Horizontal Situation Indicator) in the video, and not observing the other vital instruments; Airspeed Indicator, Altimeter, and Vertical Speed Indicator...which were all unwinding!
Panic sets in, as soon as you become disorientated, your brain ceases to function properly, and correct procedure goes out of the window!
A Very Scary Situation!...
...!
Clouds are for looking at, ....safely, at ground level!...
..!
Paul...so far, a cloudy beer has been my only concern...
...!
Dell Dimension 5000 BTX Tower. Win7 Home Edition, 32 Bit. Intel Pentium 4, dual 2.8 GHz. 2.5GB RAM, nVidia GF 9500GT 1GB. SATA 500GB + 80GB. Philips 17" LCD Monitor. Micronet ADSL Modem only. Saitek Cyborg Evo Force. FS 2004 + FSX. Briggs and Stratton Petrol Lawn Mower...Motor Bikes. Gas Cooker... and lots of musical instruments!.... ...!
Yamaha MO6,MM6,DX7,DX11,DX21,DX100,MK100,EMT10,PSR400,PSS780,Roland GW-8L v2,TR505,Casio MT-205,Korg CX3v2 dual manual,+ Leslie 760,M-Audio Prokeys88,KeyRig,Cubase,Keyfax4,Guitars,Orchestral,Baroque,Renaissance,Medieval Instruments.
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Reply #14 -
Mar 23
rd
, 2012 at 10:46am
Flying Trucker
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Colonel
An Old Retired Rocking
Chair Flying Geezer
Gender:
Posts: 11425
Hi Sean...
If the pilot I mentioned had of done exactly what Air Traffic Control had said they would have been alive today...perhaps.
He was not Instrument Rated and he did not believe his eyes...he was flying by the seat of his pants when he should have been on the ground.
Cheers...Happy Landings...Doug
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Reply #15 -
Mar 25
th
, 2012 at 5:58pm
C
Offline
Colonel
Earth
Posts: 13144
DaveSims wrote
on Mar 22
nd
, 2012 at 7:17pm:
Even as someone with decent instrument training, and soon to finish my rating I hope, I have great respect for what it takes to fly without reference to the outside world.
Interesting thoughts. On your last point, having done a lot of pure instrument flying in the past 5 years, I now find it easier in some ways than VFR - just fly and believe the instruments, and get a service from ATC to tell you who might be thinking of hitting you, so to speak (in cloud you don't have to use you capacity to be looking out - probably the single advantage of being in cloud - other than the point below).
From a disorientation point of view, the worst time I find is when you are just in cloud tops, where it is very easy to pick out a false horizon, and hence to try and trick your brain into thinking the attitude indicator/artificial horizon is wrong. Can be a little unnerving, but you just have to stick to the principles!
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