Simviation Forum - Need an opinion here, should I be mad about this?

Mar 4^th, 2012 at 7:01pm

Wing Nut Offline
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Ok, so I found a website called Bob's Aircraft Documentation that specializes in photo packages, 3-views, and drawings of just about any aircraft you can imagine. This guy's catalog of planes is HUGE!

I was looking for some cockpit pictures of the Travel Air Mystery Ship. Older members may or may not remember this is my favorite plane and a perennially unfinished FS project of mine.

I wanted the exterior pics, but mostly I wanted cockpit pictures, which are exceedingly hard to find. I've known this plane for about ten years now and can count on one hand the number I have found from the original R-614K. The plane was built back in 1929, after all...

I ordered the packaged listed below and highlighted in this picture...

Now back in the 70's, Matt Younkin built a replica Type-R that he flew around to airshows and showed off. It was a beautiful job, but had several inaccuracies in the paint and design in addition to having a modern cockpit.

You guessed it, that's what I got. I spent $28.00 for 32 3x5 inch prints that are are totally useless to me.

I sent off an e-mail to Bob explaining the situation and suggesting he put a note in the catalog informing people these pics are of the replica with a modern cockpit and here's the response I got...

Quote:

Kevin as catalog states, 3-views are separate from photos, call me for clarification . I did not state that this was the original

To which I replied:

Quote:

You didn't state it was NOT the original and that is my point. When you advertised it as R614K, that means the original plane, not the reproduction version. Thank you, and I'm sorry to see you take that position. I had also planned on ordering the other Mystery Ship sets as well as the drawings and pictures for the the Loving Wayne WR-1 and the Laird Solution as well. However, if I can't count on the accuracy of the product, I have no use for them.

Thank you for your time.

Kevin Ryan

and his reply to that was:

Quote:

Kevin I state when they are ORIGINAL as you can see on the other Mystery Ships. Ask me and I will tell you if not stated as to original or repro. BoB

So I'll leave it up to you guys. Should I be mad here?

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Reply #1 - Mar 4^th, 2012 at 7:06pm

Mike.. Offline
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If you can send them back for a refund then I suppose no harm no foul. But if he isn't willing to do so as his catalog is in accurate i'd stick to my guns. If he pushes the issue i'd sick the triple B on em....But thats just me Wink

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Reply #2 - Mar 4^th, 2012 at 7:18pm

Groundbound1 Offline
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My two cents isn't worth a penny in this situation, but I'd say you're both right.

Ethically speaking, the right thing to do on his part, would have been to disclose any and all information he had about what he's selling.

On the flip though,...caveat emptor. While it's not blatantly obvious, he does have "originals" marked as such.

Should you be mad? Yeah, I would.

Will you know better next time? Yeah, I would.

You might try to explain in more detail what you wanted to use them for, and ask him if he'll give you a refund.

Worth a try. Huh

On a side note...
There is a museum in Kalamzoo, Mi. that has a replica. (pictured below)

Being that it IS in a museum, the pit might be accurate. Drop the curator a line and see if he'd email you a few snaps, if it would help. Again, worth a try.

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Reply #3 - Mar 4^th, 2012 at 8:11pm

Jetranger Offline
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"Wing Nut" , I'd have to say your "Entitled" to a Refund and get your money back, providing you also send back the photos. As a Current , quite heavy seller on "E-Bay" I always, Always provide a very detailed and through Description of what it is I'm selling, for I sell / Auction a lotta of old stuff, like the 1957 Vintage Vendo Coke machine I recently Auctioned off, I provided a clear and precise Description, of the machine with tons of up-close photos from all angles, the model # , the serial # MFG tags, and the exact Size of the machine and its Approx. Weight. I had 47 bids, it went for $4,700.00 and the new owner is tickled to have it ! No problems. The biggest problem I see out here anymore, is sometimes those selling something all they want to do is provide a " Generalized" description of what they are selling, very "Generalized" and your evidently supposed to read between the lines as to the rest of it and hope or "Assume" that what their attempting to pawn/sell/ trade is just what your looking for, too many times I've seen those selling something on-line just give a poorly "Vague" description, and the person on the other end ( buyer ), can only Assume and hope its the item their actually looking for. I myself don't go down that Road - I want the potential buyer to "KNOW" exactly what their getting right up Front, no questions, NO Doubts about what their getting what so ever ! I myself am "NOT" a "Mind Reader" and Can NOT see thru walls or Read peoples minds and I don't want to either - so I Do Not expect others to either, rather I'm selling something or just having a conversation in general , makes no difference ! These days everybodys in a Big Hurry to do nothing, and won't / can't justify the time to put more "Clarity" into their work, descriptions, or conversations, no matter what it might be , if people would just take a few more minutes to Clarify themselves to others, it would eliminate a hell of a lot of Confusion & mis-conceptions by both parties !!! So, that being said - as your Judge Judy ( Grin

) I rule in your favor for a Refund ~ ! Case Dismissed ! Lips Sealed

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Reply #4 - Mar 4^th, 2012 at 8:24pm

Wing Nut Offline
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Groundbound1 wrote on Mar 4^th, 2012 at 7:18pm:

My two cents isn't worth a penny in this situation, but I'd say you're both right.

Ethically speaking, the right thing to do on his part, would have been to disclose any and all information he had about what he's selling.

On the flip though,...caveat emptor. While it's not blatantly obvious, he does have "originals" marked as such.

Should you be mad? Yeah, I would.

Will you know better next time? Yeah, I would.

You might try to explain in more detail what you wanted to use them for, and ask him if he'll give you a refund.

Worth a try. Huh

On a side note...
There is a museum in Kalamzoo, Mi. that has a replica. [url=http://www.airzoo.org/page.php?page_id=108](pictured below)

Being that it IS in a museum, the pit might be accurate. Drop the curator a line and see if he'd email you a few snaps, if it would help. Again, worth a try.

Yeah, I'm planning my trip up to see that one soon. It's only about 100 miles from me. I've already called and got permission to go behind the ropes for detail pics.

That is a replica of NR1313, the plane Frank Hawks set the cross-country record of 12 hours and change back in 1932. The real one is hanging in the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago. It's a sister ship to R614K... Wink

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