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Question on cycling on the roads (turns) (Read 996 times)
Feb 2nd, 2012 at 3:08pm

machineman9   Offline
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Usually I'm quite okay when it comes to cycling, but I intend to more in the evenings (which, if you didn't notice, are very dark and usually involves a fair bit of traffic). Quite often I cycle on the pavement, but only when it is clear from pedestrians - I know what the Highway Code has to say on that, but I'm also aware that 'by-rules' also permit you to do so if it's not causing any problems to pedestrians or is the safer thing to do... And it is usually a lot safer to cycle there. But I digress...

I'm good at cycling on the left side of the left lane, and I usually keep it right there, but imagine I want to stop and do a right turn on the road? So I'm going into a junction and I need to cross over the line of traffic on the other side of the road, but because of traffic I had to stop in the road.

Should I just be like a car and get to the middle of the road and pause, with my turning indicator on (or, arm, whichever you prefer  Grin) or is there a better way? I usually try to time it so that I cycle between the flow of cars, but this is not always possible nor safe to do so.


Cheers.
 

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Reply #1 - Feb 4th, 2012 at 9:07pm

BigTruck   Offline
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Well, here in Mountain View, CA cyclists are required to ride on the road, so they have bike lanes on the side of the road.  In order to make left turns they have to use the turning lane that cars use.  They just get up in front of the pack, make their turn when the light turns green and then get the heck out of the way.  Mountain View is considered one of the most bicycle friendly towns in the USA though, I'm not sure if your town provides this stuff for your people.

The one bad thing about it being so bicycle friendly though, is that there are a lot of riders, which means police patrol them just as hard as they do cars.  I've had friends get speeding tickets, wreckless driving, DUI, failing to stop, the list goes on.  Have to treat it like a motorized vehicle here.  Takes some of the fun out of it, I used to be able to ride my bike to the bar down the street and get nicely hammered and ride home instead of driving.  Now I have to crawl home.
 

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Reply #2 - Feb 4th, 2012 at 9:48pm

machineman9   Offline
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Interesting how they enforce a speed limit, seeing as nobody has a speedometer unless they've got a bike computer.

We only really get turning lanes at the lights, crossroads and the like. Imagine you wanted to park on the other side of the road and there was oncoming traffic, I presume you'd just wait on your point and then cycle over when ready. Act like a motorbike, maybe?
 

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Reply #3 - Feb 4th, 2012 at 10:00pm

BigTruck   Offline
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It was obvious speeding, they were in a 5mph zone and the guy was riding through that at an easy 15mph.  They wrote him for wreckless.  And yeah, the only turning lanes are at stoplights here as well.  I'd say yes, act like a motor bike.
 

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Reply #4 - Feb 5th, 2012 at 11:30am

Apex   Offline
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Anytime I see a bicyclist I exercise extreme caution for their benefit.  If they're nicely outfitted with bike gear and helmets, most likely they're riding properly. 

But I wonder how the average driver regards bicyclists?

Sometime ago, maybe 2 years, a bicyclist was killed while crossing over a well travelled bridge here (Miami FL) with other bicyclists, very sad.  I don't recall if the car driver was found to be at fault. 

And last year, a friend of a friend was seriously injured while bicycling to work in Chicago. 

I don't ride anymore, too dangerous for musicians like me who value their hands, really, and my neighborhood has a lot of rush hour traffic cutting through to avoid the corner lights, I just don't want to mess with cell phone talkers etc.

But we, drivers and bicyclists alike, need to be aware that bicyclists have road rights and rules also, I guess. 
 
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Reply #5 - Feb 5th, 2012 at 12:44pm

ViperPilot   Offline
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Apex wrote on Feb 5th, 2012 at 11:30am:
Anytime I see a bicyclist I exercise extreme caution for their benefit.  If they're nicely outfitted with bike gear and helmets, most likely they're riding properly. 

But I wonder how the average driver regards bicyclists?

Sometime ago, maybe 2 years, a bicyclist was killed while crossing over a well travelled bridge here (Miami FL) with other bicyclists, very sad.  I don't recall if the car driver was found to be at fault. 

And last year, a friend of a friend was seriously injured while bicycling to work in Chicago. 

I don't ride anymore, too dangerous for musicians like me who value their hands, really, and my neighborhood has a lot of rush hour traffic cutting through to avoid the corner lights, I just don't want to mess with cell phone talkers etc.

But we, drivers and bicyclists alike, need to be aware that bicyclists have road rights and rules also, I guess. 


No pun intended, but it's a two way street for both roadway users; drivers should be on the lookout, and cyclists need to be cognizant of the Rules of the Road. It's a very contentious topic here in CO, especially with the cycling population we have. Riding three and four abreast, blowing through stop signs, etc. The drivers don't have much patience for cyclists who do that, especially in Denver... and they'll let you know it, too.

Unfortunately, I have seen some 'properly outfitted' cyclists on the roads here, and they have been some of the worst offenders! Bear in mind though that the cycling 'mindset' is different in the US than other countries like the Continent and in Asia, where a bicycle is looked upon as a form of transportation and as a utility item and the drivers there know that. In the US, a bicycle is looked at as a toy; a piece of recreational sports equipment like a tennis racket or a golf club.
U.S. drivers, hurrying and rushing through their daily lives don't have much patience, tolerance or, for that matter, peripheral vision for cyclists who don't abide by the Rules of the Road.

Apex, you make the best recommendation of all in your last sentence. After spending 17 years in the Industry, and racing for 20+ years I wish more drivers had the same judgement and common sense you practice on a daily basis!  Cheesy

Alan  Smiley

EDIT: In answer to your original question... I would signal, merge into the turn lane and make your turn just like a motor vehicle would. It's all a matter of traffic flow, being visible to other drivers, and executing the maneuver smoothly. Also... make your move with authority; don't second guess yourself.  Wink
 

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Reply #6 - Feb 6th, 2012 at 1:02am

beaky   Offline
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Cyclists, like motorcyclists, are at risk in this scenario... best thing to do is to signal with whatever you have, and do not assume they see you. Whenever possible, try to do it without stopping completely. Bicycles and motorcycles seem to disappear from many drivers' reality when they are not actually moving (signals or no). I'd also recommend this when driving a Fiat 124 Sport Spider, having been rear-ended in one- twice- by drivers who somehow forgot I was right in front of them.   Roll Eyes

You can assert your rights all you want, but it won't count for much if you are in traction in a body cast while you are complaining.  Grin
 

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Reply #7 - Feb 6th, 2012 at 5:11am

machineman9   Offline
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Thanks a lot. Cyclists have a weird reputation here... Many are careful but there are a lot of angry drivers. They expect cyclists to pay road tax (note: cars producing under 100g/km CO2 pay none anyway) and have no time for those two wheeled contraptions.

There is a road that takes me from my town to the next which is really dangerous... A lot of accidents each year. To me it is a case of 'sod the law' because cycling on the pavement is just so so much safer. There are several junctions and it is very narrow for a 60 zone. Just unsafe, but most shortcuts have their drawbacks.

I have my nice helmet, partially reflective bag (a camelbak) and suitable lights. So long as I don't need lycra I think this is sufficient Cheesy
 

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Reply #8 - Feb 6th, 2012 at 7:35am

Apex   Offline
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ViperPilot, your statement about "some properly outfitted bicyclists being the worst offenders" is something I'll now keep in mind.  I do see some occasionally, no offenders yet, but ya never know.  Maybe they think that because they can ride better than others that it's OK to take chances, whatever.  Thanks for that.   

 
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Reply #9 - Feb 6th, 2012 at 9:57am

Hagar   Offline
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Interesting to note that all replies so far have been from US members. Are there no UK cyclists among the regulars?

I'm a motorist & pedestrian. I have a certain sympathy for cyclists but by their attitude towards other road users the majority of them don't help themselves. You really do need eyes in the back of your head to venture out on the road these days. The problem as I see it is that most British roads simply aren't suitable for cyclists. That also applies to pavements & footpaths. Please keep in mind that modern cycles are so quiet that even pedestrians with perfect hearing cannot hear them approaching from behind. I have to agree with ViperPilot that I find the "properly outfitted" cyclists, meaning those with all the lycra gear & streamlined helmets, are usually the worst offenders & seem to think that everyone should give way to them.
 

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Reply #10 - Feb 6th, 2012 at 10:20am

machineman9   Offline
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Yeah, those super-dazzled-up riders remember one thing... "they are allowed to be on the roads and do really have a right to be there", but they lack the understanding that 'other people might not notice them, nor care for them and do not recognise them to be the traffic that they actually are'.

They're seen as a nuisance, but really they're a road going vehicle just like everyone else.


The only idiotic cyclist I ever saw decided to ride out into a road (from behind cars stopped on the other side of the road) and cycled straight into oncoming traffic that was going 30-40mph. Broken windscreens like those get engraved into your head when you're just 11 years old. So I like to cycle safely, even if it means sometimes just being on a wide pavement when I do so. I cycle as fast as I can, but I cycle sensibly... It's all about understanding where you are and what everyone else is doing (something that driving a car has taught me a great deal about).
 

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Reply #11 - Feb 6th, 2012 at 8:05pm

machineman9   Offline
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Hagar wrote on Feb 6th, 2012 at 9:57am:
You really do need eyes in the back of your head to venture out on the road these days.

I love the internet sometimes  Grin
 

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Reply #12 - Feb 7th, 2012 at 12:42pm

eno   Offline
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Ok ....... now an answer from a born again cyclist.. having recently bought a bike.... and a professional driver.

For right turns you should be doing exactly what you would do in a car. Signal well in advance of your turn and move to the centre of the road when able to do so safely. Await a break in the opposing traffic and pedal like hell to get through the gap Cheesy
If this proves too daunting then stop ..... dismount .... and cross as a predestrian wheeling the bike.
Remember as a cyclist you are afforded the same rights as any other vehicle on the road. I ride my bike the same as I drive my car... I plan well ahead, try to anticipate the actions of others, position myself appropriately in my lane so as not to cause inconvenience to other road users, unless it is for my own safety eg on blind bends or the brow of a hill where I will happily hog half the carriageway to prevent dangerous overtaking and then allow others to overtake when it is safe to do so.

From a drivers point of view I hate the "professional cyclist" ... all the gear but no sense, two and three abreast on narrow country lanes or jumping red lights in cities and towns. Another pet hate is cyclists using bus lanes ...whoever thought that one up needs their head read.
 

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Reply #13 - Feb 7th, 2012 at 1:33pm

Fozzer   Offline
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..another tip from a keen Motorcyclist for 62 years..

Together with cyclists, we have the luxury of cautiously filtering through stationary traffic....

...but BEWARE of drivers and passengers opening their doors to disembark, or curious to see what the hold-up is....

...that will knock you off your machine..sometimes into oncoming traffic!

Anticipating danger well in advance is the rule and life-saver for we two-wheelers!

Paul...Meep-meep... Cool...!

Also......keep an eye on the face of the motorist confronting you, to see if he/she has spotted you, and observe the front wheels of their vehicle...are the wheels rotating? ...and which way are they pointing?

P.S...I treat all Pedal Cyclists with the care that they deserve.
 

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Reply #14 - Feb 7th, 2012 at 6:25pm

machineman9   Offline
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I'll be sure to wear my finest plate armor and bring a joust to fight off people who try to door me  Grin


Also, it's too cold (especially for dressing as a knight) so I will leave it until it warms up a tad  Grin
 

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Reply #15 - Feb 8th, 2012 at 6:27pm

H   Offline
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As a note, here we more often refer to 'pavement' as a general term for the covering on the street; vehicles are generally prohibited from the (pedestrian's) 'sidewalk' and specific 'walkways' (last year I saw a bicyclist zip by a toddler, known to trip when there's nothing to trip over, on a sidewalk). There are biking and hiking trails, usually wider, which accomodate both.
The frustration in these parts is that, even though in the Driver's Manual from which comes the written exam, many drivers don't seem to know the hand signals even if they do see the bicyclist. That's a major part of the reason I've wired on a tail lamp, front running lamp, directionals (front and rear), a brake lamp (engaged by either front or rear brake) as well as a seperately switched 20w headlamp. Of course, I also tend to bicycle after dark which makes the illumination more important.
As eno, I sometimes find it simpler to become a pedestrian and walk my bike across the street. Auto drivers, however, should acknowledge that, in most places, the slower-by-design vehicle (like a bicycle or horse) generally has the right of way -- just as pedestrians have the right of way even respective to them.



Cool
 
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Reply #16 - Feb 8th, 2012 at 7:15pm

machineman9   Offline
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I've heard of people putting indicator and brake light kits on their bikes before.... It might be an interesting project to do at home! Get some electronics together and build a lighting system.

I would love to get dynamo lights, but they always seem to be quite expensive.
 

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Reply #17 - Feb 8th, 2012 at 9:44pm

ViperPilot   Offline
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Apex wrote on Feb 6th, 2012 at 7:35am:
ViperPilot, your statement about "some properly outfitted bicyclists being the worst offenders" is something I'll now keep in mind.  I do see some occasionally, no offenders yet, but ya never know.  Maybe they think that because they can ride better than others that it's OK to take chances, whatever.  Thanks for that.   


Apex,

I have a term for who you describe; I call them 'wind trainer warriors'. They're the guys who think that, when they're on the road that it's the Giro d' Italia, and that because they look the part they can ride like they do in the Giro... take up the whole road and ride with impunity.

As someone who is a "high time" cyclist (over 100K mi), I can suggest to you the following tip; whenever you're on the road, and need to make a maneuver (left turn, passing, overtaking another cyclist or slower moving vehicle) use this mnemonic:

S P I D E

SCAN
PREDICT
IDENTIFY
DECIDE
EXECUTE

Don't be timid... by law, you have as much right to use the roadways as a motor vehicle; you just have to follow the basic rules. Another thing... get one of those cheap 'ding ding' bells at the bike shop. They work much better than shouting "on your left" all the time!

Alan  Cheesy
 

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Reply #18 - Feb 10th, 2012 at 5:02pm

H   Offline
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machineman9 wrote on Feb 8th, 2012 at 7:15pm:
I've heard of people putting indicator and brake light kits on their bikes before.... It might be an interesting project to do at home! Get some electronics together and build a lighting system.

I would love to get dynamo lights, but they always seem to be quite expensive.
My home made system is expensive enough. The two 6v series-wired (=12v) lithium batteries cost about $40 per the pair at the time but the price is now about half again as much. I made my own battery box which is mounted on the lower front frame strut where the water bottle mount normally is. Directional, brake and tail lamps are automotive LED running lamps (~ $9 each). The directional blinking is caused by a blinking LED per side (~ $4/pair) which I've inserted in my main running lamp/headlamp switch mount (near the center of the handle bar to visibly help save me from the 'old-lady-continual-signal-syndrome'). My headlamp was made from a hacksaw-shortened metal flashlight casing (covered the back end with a vitamin-bottle cap) but I wired in a new 12v conical bulb and it has its own switch so it doesn't have to be on when the main switch is on (lithium batteries hold up better, recovering much faster, than a motorcycle battery but 20w is a bit of a draw during charging; I made a special recharging cable -- using a Nescafé instant coffee jar, cut to fit over the front of the battery box, to house it -- and I keep the front/tail lamps on during charging). To alleviate congestion and pinching with control cables, I drilled ¼" holes at each end of my top strut to run wires through. I made mounts near front and rear brakes for microswitches so that the movement of either brake cable will light the brake lamp.


ViperPilot wrote on Feb 8th, 2012 at 9:44pm:
Another thing... get one of those cheap 'ding ding' bells at the bike shop. They work much better than shouting "on your left" all the time!
I've had the intention of mounting an automotive horn... for the same price, I wonder if a junk yard might have... um, hmm... something bigger...
   Roll Eyes

Cool
 
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Reply #19 - Feb 11th, 2012 at 4:47am

Hagar   Offline
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machineman9 wrote on Feb 8th, 2012 at 7:15pm:
I've heard of people putting indicator and brake light kits on their bikes before.... It might be an interesting project to do at home! Get some electronics together and build a lighting system.

That's a good idea.

Quote:
I would love to get dynamo lights, but they always seem to be quite expensive.

I wouldn't bother with dynamos. They have one big drawback. They only work when the wheels are turning. Unless you have some sort of battery back-up the lights go out just when you need them most, like being stationary in the middle of the road waiting to turn right.
 

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Reply #20 - Feb 12th, 2012 at 12:53pm

machineman9   Offline
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Hagar wrote on Feb 11th, 2012 at 4:47am:
I wouldn't bother with dynamos. They have one big drawback. They only work when the wheels are turning. Unless you have some sort of battery back-up the lights go out just when you need them most, like being stationary in the middle of the road waiting to turn right.

Hmmm...  A hybrid system. Well, it exists for cars.

I don't see why I couldn't convert a dyamo kit into a recharger, and use batteries too. My knowledge of power supplies is a tad weak, but I have a good deal of practise with electronics. A simple bistable circuit.


I just need to watch out in case my bike starts to look like a Delorean time machine  Grin
 

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Reply #21 - Feb 12th, 2012 at 3:01pm

Fozzer   Offline
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When it comes to bicycle lights, the choice is endless!...>>>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_lighting

Take your pick!

Paul...shedding a little light on the subject!... Smiley...!

High brightness LED lights are all the rage now!
 

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Reply #22 - Feb 12th, 2012 at 8:07pm

ViperPilot   Offline
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Paul's right; high intensity, high tech lighting systems have been out on the market for quite a while, and are used with great reliability in a lot of different situations. The popularity of 24 hour mountain bike races and ultra marathon running events were possible due to efficient lighting systems that were light, recharged quickly and easily, and had burn times that lasted for three or four hours of constant use.

I have an old Nite Rider dual beam halogen system with a 12 volt NiMh battery. It puts out 32 watts of light max. with both beams, has a Hi and a Low Beam, and has a matching tail light that plugs into the battery. It's shaped like a water bottle, weighs about a pound and a quarter, and fits in the WB cage on the down tube. It takes me about a minute to put the light on, recharges in about 5 hours, and lasts for 4. I've used this in the 24 Hours of Moab off road race and wouldn't ride at night with anything else.

They are kind of spendy, though, but well worth it if you commute by bike regularly and come home after dusk.

http://www.niterider.com/

Alan  Cool
 

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Reply #23 - Feb 14th, 2012 at 6:18pm

H   Offline
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ViperPilot wrote on Feb 12th, 2012 at 8:07pm:
They are kind of spendy, though, but well worth it if you commute by bike regularly and come home after dusk.
http://www.niterider.com/
From what I see, those are only headlamps?
The 12v/20w halogen lens cost me $6 on sale (the 12v/35w lens I had on the previous bike was a $3 closeout).

As indicated above, my battery pack is fairly narrow and there's no interference with legs/pedals; it can, obviously, be wired as a backup to a generator system but I suggest a surge diode be employed as a safety measure.



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Reply #24 - Feb 14th, 2012 at 11:16pm

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I really am kind of lost here.
But I used to cycle every day after school with my neighbours and we always used to cycle on the road. There weren't many cars that used to pass by there because
a) We would cycle at dusk
b) We lived in an area which was far away from the cities.
But I never cycle in an area where there is lots of traffic and that's like the Platinum rule of Jogging and Cycling here.
As for speed limits, my best friend and i let it rim once we get to the downhill Grin. No police tell us jack (well partly because we do that in little known backroads) Grin Cool
 

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Reply #25 - Feb 15th, 2012 at 12:27am

ViperPilot   Offline
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Here in Denver we have a pretty extensive network of Bike Paths, which are off street multi use paths that run along two of our waterways; Cherry Creek and the So. Platte River. Intersecting that are Bike Routes; low traffic streets that also intersect, allowing a cyclist to make their way around town pretty easily. The routes and paths have been around since the 70's; I've ridden them back and forth, and most times I can get from my house to Downtown (about 7 miles) in about 25 minutes... just as fast as a car!

Unfortunately, that isn't the case. People who ride will choose the most direct route to their destination, and that sometimes means riding on high traffic streets and thoroughfares, which also means conflicts with drivers. We also have a City ordinance that prohibits cyclists from riding on the sidewalks, except within 500 feet of their destination or if the 'sidewalk' is part of the Bike Path.

Even with all of that, we're still considered one of the top 10 bike friendly cities in the US.
 

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Reply #26 - Feb 15th, 2012 at 10:34am

machineman9   Offline
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We have quite a few cycle lanes, but they're not exactly safe... I was going down a cycle lane in the main road, and a bus was literally inches from knocking me off. So we do have cycle lanes, but we are not required to use them... In that case it was probably safer to not use the cycle lane and just cycle in the road - the bus would have not been able to chance it that way. The cycle lanes on the pavement take some interesting routes, and rarely take you where you want to go  Roll Eyes

However, on my way to work, there is a lovely long country lane with a 60mph zone which I must navigate, and then cross over the road to get into the driveway at work. It's rarely busy down there, but it's kinda scary. I pretty much bought a new super duper helmet just for the task  Grin
 

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Reply #27 - Feb 17th, 2012 at 5:28pm

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Fozzer wrote on Feb 12th, 2012 at 3:01pm:
High brightness LED lights are all the rage now!
Just to note...
when choosing lights it depends upon the intended usage. When seeking a headlamp, one is concerned with the amount of light that will be reflected back (the darker the color, the less reflected) which, of course, means more must be emitted to begin with since there will be considerable loss with the return. As for directional and indicator lighting, this is for the observer who needs only see the light coming directly from the lamp, which will thus shine much brighter in the eyes with much less emitted.

A single high brightness LED is not, currently, equivelent to a high brigtness halogen bulb. That is why LEDs are ganged in lighting units such as flashlights. LEDs are usually rated by mcd and the most common highest brightness LED I've found in stock is 28,000mcd; a 1w halogen is ~ 17 lumen; 17 lumen is equal to @ twenty-five of those 28k mcd LEDs. That means you'd need @ five-hundred of them to equivelate a 20w halogen headlamp.



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