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Have grant money - need system (Read 2326 times)
Apr 23rd, 2011 at 4:07pm

gsp225   Offline
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Hi - Newbie here.
I did a search and came up with some great information, but since this is a special case and I am so new to flight sim, I thought I would send this out for my specific case.

I fly a lot as an aircrew member with Civil Air Patrol and a private pilot.  Haven't done any real FS'ing since I played Flight Sim on my Apple IIC.  However, here is my situation:

I am now (since retiring after 20 years in law enforcement) the Aviation and Aerospace Investigations teacher at a brand new Aerospace Technologies Charter school.  I have a budget of $5000 for a flight simulator (minus $2000 for the cockpit enclosure) - I'm going to be going with Saitek equipment - the full Monty (Yoke, quad, stack, etc).  I want to run 7 screens - 3 front, 1@ side, and 2 for the panel.  I want the experience to be "theatricaly-real" for the students, not boring FAA stuff that the pre-packaged IFR simulators are for.

I have researched the boards and come up with some good knowledge and general advice, but (now to my question) what specific hardware (video cards, memory, etc) do I really need to run my system?
(** I have to use Dell systems - the only district vendor allowed) 
Any help would be appreicated.
 
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Reply #1 - Apr 23rd, 2011 at 5:12pm

Steve M   Offline
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Welcome, interesting querry. I hope John Baymore catches this thread as he has quite a setup. I can't help much, except I keep thinking Dell is a limiting factor? And that the budget for realism is equal to the results..
                           Wink
 

...
Flying with twins is a lot of fun..
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Reply #2 - Apr 23rd, 2011 at 5:40pm

Strategic Retreat   Offline
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Intriguing project. Shocked

The three screens in the front can be manned by a single Matrox Triple Head 2 Go adapter, the two lateral ones on a second PC and the panel a third PC. All of this interlinked by Project Magenta or similar Sim sharing software I know little about at the moment, but that can be surely found on the net with little problems...

A bare minimum of three PC, two of which must be able to give good 3D graphics (the one for the front view and the one for the lateral view) on which you better prepare to fork quite a lot of money, especially if you want to use FSX as a base sim. If you plan to use FS9 instead, it would require a more modest need for processing power and memory giving you more latitude with your funds. Or you could use X-plane, which would be a midway between the two above for graphical aspect and power needed, but I'm not going there because I know X-plane is appreciated by few (simply presenting you the option should not be offense enough to make lynch mobs form, I hope). Undecided

For the two most graphic intensive PCs, beside for the Triple Heads 2 Go video adapter to be used on the front one (which is a simple to configure outside dongle with a single input and three different outputs for as many monitors), you would be good with the best combination you can afford of Nvidia Geforce card, CPU, memory and fast HD possible.

The second PC would need a quite good card too (and I suggest Nvidia because ATi always were problematic to me) but not need adapters, as any good video-card nowadays has two video exits.

Seen you're stuck on Dell... beside giving you some general advice cannot be of a lot of help there, seen I know a little less than nothing about this brand of PCs. Smiley

The PC responsible for the gauges can be less powerful under the point of view of the video department, saving you some money. And for last, a fast Ethernet linkage between the three PC is not an optional.

The hardware part is quite straightforward, if costly I expect, but the software part I fear will be a waking nightmare more problematic, seen the only experience I have in the matter (on the much simpler FSUIPC - WideFS combo no less) was quite hair rising. I can only wish you good luck and Godspeed. Smiley


[edit]
PS
You should ask in the HomeBuild Cockpits section as well. There you'll surely find more detailed suggestions. Wink
« Last Edit: Apr 23rd, 2011 at 9:13pm by Strategic Retreat »  

There is no such a thing as overkill. Only unworthy targets.
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Reply #3 - Apr 23rd, 2011 at 11:07pm

JBaymore   Offline
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gsp225,

Welcome to SimV and the homebuild craziness.

I am going to move this to the Homebuild section....... likely you'll get more reponses there.

And spend some time looking around in that section.  I bet almost all of your quewstions are answered in there somewhere.  There is a wealth of knowledgfe in that section.

best,

............john
 

... ...Intel i7 960 quad 3.2G LGA 1366, Asus P6X58D Premium, 750W Corsair, 6 gig 1600 DDR3, Spinpoint 1TB 7200 HD, Caviar 500G 7200 HD, GTX275 1280M,  Logitec Z640, Win7 Pro 64b, CH Products yoke, pedals + throttle quad, simpit
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Reply #4 - Apr 23rd, 2011 at 11:27pm

JBaymore   Offline
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There are many ways to go with the setup of this solution.  It is complicateed enough to write a book to really elaborate on the pros and cons of each solution.  In the end, the one that works for you is the right one  Wink.

Depending on the space you have, I would recommend using a projection system for the front visuals, with the cockpit set up so that you look outside the encolsure at the "world".  This makes an AMAZING difference in realism.  What is lost in fine pixels on a monitor.... it gained in realism.  You won't miss the likely lower resolution.

If budget allows (eventually, use multiple projectors to get about a 180 degree view, so that the peripheral vision part kicks in on the side windows.

Single GOOD fast machine with a killer graphics card can drive the front visuals.  Many people find good luck with the TripleHead2Go.

Personally for your needs I'd recommend FS2004 over FSX.  You can get faster framerates per unit of $ spent on the machine.  If you are going projection, you'll not need the finer resolution that FSX offers.  Framerate and smoothness is KEY for the illusion of flight....and when you go to a simpit..... stutters and hesitations stand out like a sore thumb.... because everything else is SO real feeling.  You notice every little glitch.

A switched 100Mbit network will suffice to computer communications.  I'd recommend all XP Pro machines or all Windows 7.  DON'T mix and match.... it is a pain in the A$$.  Believe me.... been there.

Install bass shakers in the pilot's seat, driven off the subwoofer output.  That sensation of runway roll then nothing is amazingly effective.  A slight vibration as the engines start up is also very effective.  It can be done pretty cheaply.  Small amp and the shakers for probably $150.

I find that the Saitek stuff feels "cheap" when compared to the feel of the CH Products controls.

Put the instruments on LCD screen behind wooden cutouts with some hardware to "pretty up" the facing. 

If you are making a GA pit..... like a Cessna trainer.... then look at FSXpand as a possible gauge generation program.  Use one machine to run the gauges on the monitors hidden behind the wooden instrument panel facing.  If you are building a commercial Boeing aircraft... try Ellie Avionics packages.  (Discalimer... I am on the Beta Team for them.)

There are a number of companies that make real fake aviation radios that look and operate just like the real thing.  Figure on about $180-200 per hardware radio, depending on the supplier.  Goflight's VRP-166 radios are not exactly identical to a real unit... but very close.

You can install many switches and indicator lights also in a real configuration using Phidgets interfaces and the freeware FS2Phidget software.  Almost anything is possible.  The interfaces are usb plug andd play.  Then configure what they do in the software.  There are many other options like that too.

That is a start.  Good luck.  Keep us posted, and get some pictures in here for us to look at too.

best,

..............john
 

... ...Intel i7 960 quad 3.2G LGA 1366, Asus P6X58D Premium, 750W Corsair, 6 gig 1600 DDR3, Spinpoint 1TB 7200 HD, Caviar 500G 7200 HD, GTX275 1280M,  Logitec Z640, Win7 Pro 64b, CH Products yoke, pedals + throttle quad, simpit
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Reply #5 - Apr 26th, 2011 at 6:33am

gsp225   Offline
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Thanks for the info so far.  I am already tweaking the proposal based on what I am learning. 

We are putting the sim into an existing computer lab (in the middle of the room), so for now we have to go with a enclosed cockpit for now.  Would I have to buy a special projector for the 180 degree view?

Where can I find a how to guide for running multiple screens? Not being a computer wizard, I need help in setting a system up.

Regarding FS2004 - how soon is that going to be obsolete?  I was looking at getting the google-earth scenery that has the external terra-byte drive.
 
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Reply #6 - Apr 26th, 2011 at 10:29am

JBaymore   Offline
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gsp225 wrote on Apr 26th, 2011 at 6:33am:
Thanks for the info so far.  I am already tweaking the proposal based on what I am learning. 

We are putting the sim into an existing computer lab (in the middle of the room), so for now we have to go with a enclosed cockpit for now.  Would I have to buy a special projector for the 180 degree view?

Where can I find a how to guide for running multiple screens? Not being a computer wizard, I need help in setting a system up.

Regarding FS2004 - how soon is that going to be obsolete?  I was looking at getting the google-earth scenery that has the external terra-byte drive.




The cockpit itself would be enclosed.... but the "windows" look out toward a single or multiple wrap-around screen setup. 

To start with, you can just use a single flat screen in the "front".  Then use a single projector on that screen.   Having to refocus the eyes at a further point in space from the interior of the cockpit makes a HUGE difference in immersion.  As does the fact that when you move around inside the cockpit, the view exhibits a bit of parallax so that the window frame moves differently than the view.

To do the 180 degree thing usually requires three separate projectors.  Like hooking up three monitors... but far more costly due to the cost of the projectors themselves.  TripleHead2Go and three projectors.

I don't think there IS a formal "guide" per se.  You'll have to look in multiple threads on multiple forums and get an overview of the techniques different people have used.  Then pick the one that you feel is right for you.

fs2004 will be viable as long as the hardware you have can still run it.  I am running Win 7 64 bit on a quad core machine (see sig line)... and it screams.  There is TONS of freeware and payware available to upgrade it. 

FSX is certainly a possibility too.... but the correct hardware to run that at HIGH, no stutter, no "lapses" framerates is going to be critical... and a bit costly.  And the computer tweaking will get critical too even with a good machine.  The machine I have sucks with FSX compared to my fs2004 stuffed with payware. 

IMHO fs2004 when crammed with the payware and freeware options is darn close to the equiv. of FSX in almost all regards.  Particularly when using projectos(s) in a simpit  because of the lower typical graphic resolution.  FSX's bit improvement is the fineness of the graphics.... if you can't see that...... it is not an asset.

best,

...................john



 

... ...Intel i7 960 quad 3.2G LGA 1366, Asus P6X58D Premium, 750W Corsair, 6 gig 1600 DDR3, Spinpoint 1TB 7200 HD, Caviar 500G 7200 HD, GTX275 1280M,  Logitec Z640, Win7 Pro 64b, CH Products yoke, pedals + throttle quad, simpit
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Reply #7 - Apr 26th, 2011 at 8:02pm

gsp225   Offline
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Thanks.  I hate to be a pain.  I know (being on other boards) how much regulars hate to repeat themselves answering the same question.  My biggest problem is that my boss threw this into my lap last Weds, my wife had emergency surgery on Fri, and he wants the proposal turned into tomorrow.  (Grant money runs out in a month).  So I had to get up to speed and do a data dump into my head of flight simming.  I am sure there are many who can sympathize.

Any additional thoughts are greatly appreciated.  Here is what I have come up with so far –
I’m going to spec out two systems – one a “wish list” for what I really-really want and one that is balanced.  I would love to go with a wrap-around screen, but the room and working conditions won’t allow for it at this time.  So, I’ll have to go with some sort of “bonnet” until I can figure out how to have the flight sim in its’ own room.

I’ll post my two systems here when I get a draft done and see if anyone would want to give me feedback.
Thanks guys.
 
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Reply #8 - Apr 26th, 2011 at 8:46pm

gsp225   Offline
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Another thought - what about using HDTVs as monitors?  Either plasma or LCD?

Also - Is his what I need or is it too much?

Processors:
Overclocked Intel® Core™ i7 930 Quad Core Processor (3.36GHz, 8MB Cache)
Operating Systems:
Genuine Windows® 7 Professional, 64bit,
Video Cards:
1.5GB GDDR5 NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX 580
Memory:
12GB DDR3 SDRAM at 1333MHz - (6x 2048MB)
Hard Drives:
2TB RAID 0 (2x 1TB SATA-II, 7,200 RPM, 32MB Cache HDDs) 
Sound Card Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
« Last Edit: Apr 26th, 2011 at 10:00pm by gsp225 »  
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Reply #9 - Apr 27th, 2011 at 5:59am

Strategic Retreat   Offline
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gsp225 wrote on Apr 26th, 2011 at 8:46pm:
Another thought - what about using HDTVs as monitors?  Either plasma or LCD?


It is surely the cheapest option, but if you can make it work, if the absolute immersion a triplet of projectors give is not a fundamental request, a number of strategically positioned, sufficiently dimensioned LED or LCD digital TVs or monitors can be good as well, I believe. Smiley



gsp225 wrote on Apr 26th, 2011 at 8:46pm:
Also - Is his what I need or is it too much?

Processors:
Overclocked Intel® Core™ i7 930 Quad Core Processor (3.36GHz, 8MB Cache)
Operating Systems:
Genuine Windows® 7 Professional, 64bit,
Video Cards:
1.5GB GDDR5 NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX 580
Memory:
12GB DDR3 SDRAM at 1333MHz - (6x 2048MB)
Hard Drives:
2TB RAID 0 (2x 1TB SATA-II, 7,200 RPM, 32MB Cache HDDs) 
Sound Card Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio


Why overclocked? Exactly WHAT kind of simulator do you plan to use to require overclock on an Intel i7? Huh

If you want to only three front TVs or monitors and can do without the additional two on the sides as you wrote in your first post (that are a little redundant, actually), but still want to use another pair of TVs or monitors to display the gauges as a different panel, you can tranquilly operate on one simple powerful PC as above, but it will necessitate two video-cards. The most powerful one (the one above you wrote should do well, but you'll still need a Matrox Triple Heads 2 Go dongle) to control the outside world's rendering and the other video-card (that can be a modest PCI card) to control the gauges monitors. Smiley

Still I cannot suggest you to overclock your hardware. Personally I've only had problems from prolonged use of overstressed hardware. That and, supposing you use FS9, a non-overclocked Intel i7 is more than enough to keep things more than OK. Cheesy

By the way, you can save some money on the memory. 12 GB of ram are WAY over the top, even for FSX (that uses at max 6GB... the HALF of what you planned). The normal 4Gb is enough for now and if you want to be a little more sure then go for 8, but more is quite too much at the moment unless you plan to use the machine above for complex CAD/CAM and/or large photoshop projects as well. Wink
 

There is no such a thing as overkill. Only unworthy targets.
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Reply #10 - Apr 27th, 2011 at 9:18pm

JBaymore   Offline
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You don't need three projectors to do the front windscreen external image.  Start out with one.  With three.... you can get almost the 180 coverage.  Peripheral vision is the "icing on the cake".

If you are using monitors... get the biggest hoinkin' stuff that you can find.

If you are running fs2004..... and load it with maxed out payware and freeware....... that machine will give you fast seamless framerates.  For the same smoothness in FSX.... other than with totally deafult stuff..... no guarantees.

I have always heard people using HD TVs have not been happy.... but YMMV.

You will find that with a simpit, you'll almost for sure be running multiple programs BESIDES the core simulator on that main machine.  Those add additional loads to the system.  So you have to think about simpit use,....... not just a stand alone desktop sim.  Try to assign the other programs to other cores to keep the main sim core only for the sim as much as possible.

Move the instruments programs (the stuff on the MIP panel) to the second machine.  That machine can be FAR less robust unless you are getting fancy.  Most of the stand alone gauge programs don't require much processor nor graphics power.

It gets a bit tricky to use the single machine to drive all of it and undock the panels in the sim.

You should ask your boss if he wants it done right and well, or fast.  Both won't happen.  That timeframe is unrealistic for you.  Rushing it is going to botch your project.  I'll GUARANTEE that you will hit cost overruns if you try to do this project that fast without a lot of simpit and simming experience.

best,

...................john

 

... ...Intel i7 960 quad 3.2G LGA 1366, Asus P6X58D Premium, 750W Corsair, 6 gig 1600 DDR3, Spinpoint 1TB 7200 HD, Caviar 500G 7200 HD, GTX275 1280M,  Logitec Z640, Win7 Pro 64b, CH Products yoke, pedals + throttle quad, simpit
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