Search the archive:
YaBB - Yet another Bulletin Board
 
   
 
Pages: 1 
Send Topic Print
Harrier missed approach (Read 948 times)
Jun 5th, 2010 at 6:47am

expat   Offline
Colonel
Deep behind enemy lines!

Gender: male
Posts: 8499
*****
 
A STOL approach that goes a little wrong. He stays with it a long time before going for the Martin Baker flyby.

Time to leave

Matt
 

PETA ... People Eating Tasty Animals.

B1 Boeing 737-800 and Dash8 Q-400
IP Logged
 
Reply #1 - Jun 5th, 2010 at 8:22am

DaveSims   Offline
Colonel
Clear Lake, Iowa

Gender: male
Posts: 2453
*****
 
Watch the video and think about what the pilot can see.  He ejects when the flames surround the cockpit, probably got kind of hot in there.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #2 - Jun 5th, 2010 at 10:45am

expat   Offline
Colonel
Deep behind enemy lines!

Gender: male
Posts: 8499
*****
 
DaveSims wrote on Jun 5th, 2010 at 8:22am:
Watch the video and think about what the pilot can see.  He ejects when the flames surround the cockpit, probably got kind of hot in there.



Well having worked on Harriers for 10 years, I can tell you once the outriggers have collapsed, if that wing digs in, over it goes. Seen it more than once. Just very surprised he stayed with it as it started to go sideways even before the flames came over the canopy.

Matt
 

PETA ... People Eating Tasty Animals.

B1 Boeing 737-800 and Dash8 Q-400
IP Logged
 
Reply #3 - Jun 5th, 2010 at 12:29pm

OVERLORD_CHRIS   Offline
Colonel
No C-17B's, C-5M's for
Every One!
Chalreston SC

Gender: male
Posts: 1148
*****
 
Maybe he had a back up plan and that's why he stuck with it so long.

 

...
IP Logged
 
Reply #4 - Jun 5th, 2010 at 1:33pm

expat   Offline
Colonel
Deep behind enemy lines!

Gender: male
Posts: 8499
*****
 
OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote on Jun 5th, 2010 at 12:29pm:
Maybe he had a back up plan and that's why he stuck with it so long.



What would that be..............Please make that go away, please make that go away, please make that go away Grin

Matt
 

PETA ... People Eating Tasty Animals.

B1 Boeing 737-800 and Dash8 Q-400
IP Logged
 
Reply #5 - Jun 5th, 2010 at 6:13pm

TigerAl   Offline
Colonel
Woo hoo!!
UK

Gender: male
Posts: 215
*****
 
Maybe he waited to put the handbrake on so no-one could steal the wreckage!  Wink
 

...
IP Logged
 
Reply #6 - Jun 5th, 2010 at 11:00pm
U4EA   Ex Member

 
WTH sorta seat they got in that thing Roll Eyes?

I saw a stooper-trooper (read stupid crew chief) eject himself out of a parked A-10 while I was delivering munitions to the flightline, he was playing 'fighter pilot' and pulled the handle on an improperly safed seat.

Although he did not stay with the seat during the entire "trip", he and the seat seperately attained way more altitude than this Harrier driver did.  And this was in 1981! 

I know they hafta have at least an ACES II in them there jets! Shocked
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #7 - Jun 6th, 2010 at 1:56am

Hagar   Offline
Colonel
My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica

Posts: 33159
*****
 
British Harriers are fitted with Martin-Baker Mk. 9A or Mk. 12 seats. http://www.martin-baker.com/products/Ejection-Seats/Mk--12H---Harrier.aspx
 

...

Founder & Sole Member - Grumpy's Over the Hill Club for Veteran Virtual Aviators
Member of the Fox Four Group

Need help? Try Grumpy's Lair

My photo gallery
IP Logged
 
Reply #8 - Jun 6th, 2010 at 4:13am

expat   Offline
Colonel
Deep behind enemy lines!

Gender: male
Posts: 8499
*****
 
Also the the MK12 seat makes it's own decisions as to what sort of ejection is required depending on altitude and aircraft speed. It has two modes, a fast and (relatively speaking) slow mode. The difference being, it can put the pilot of a fully deployed chute in (if memory serves) 1 point eye blink seconds and 1.7 or so. It can also be used at speed over 600 knots. It has a clever rigging system that collapses the chute a high airspeeds, imagine the pulsing of a jelly fish and you get the picture.

Matt
 

PETA ... People Eating Tasty Animals.

B1 Boeing 737-800 and Dash8 Q-400
IP Logged
 
Reply #9 - Jun 6th, 2010 at 9:48pm
U4EA   Ex Member

 
Hagar wrote on Jun 6th, 2010 at 1:56am:
British Harriers are fitted with Martin-Baker Mk. 9A or Mk. 12 seats. http://www.martin-baker.com/products/Ejection-Seats/Mk--12H---Harrier.aspx


Not as much oomph as an ACES II I reckon?  That looked like an awful hard hit that poor guy took.

Two hits!  One was in the backside getting punched out, two was the landing. Shocked
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #10 - Jun 6th, 2010 at 10:34pm

machineman9   Offline
Colonel
Nantwich, England

Gender: male
Posts: 5255
*****
 
Any idea what actually happened? It looked like a bad case of 'oh so that is where the ground is' just before meeting with it. Late to pull up, perhaps late to eject, definately late for dinner.
 

...
IP Logged
 
Reply #11 - Jun 6th, 2010 at 11:23pm
U4EA   Ex Member

 
Forgot about the first 'hit'. Cheesy

The poor guy took three altogether. Cry
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #12 - Jun 7th, 2010 at 3:45am

expat   Offline
Colonel
Deep behind enemy lines!

Gender: male
Posts: 8499
*****
 
U4EA wrote on Jun 6th, 2010 at 9:48pm:
Hagar wrote on Jun 6th, 2010 at 1:56am:
British Harriers are fitted with Martin-Baker Mk. 9A or Mk. 12 seats. http://www.martin-baker.com/products/Ejection-Seats/Mk--12H---Harrier.aspx


Not as much oomph as an ACES II I reckon?  That looked like an awful hard hit that poor guy took.

Two hits!  One was in the backside getting punched out, two was the landing. Shocked



How much oomph do you want? The spine can only take so much G. The MK12 seat was specifically designed to try and limit ejection G forces. The Aces seat runs at around 25G, the MK12 is around 14G. The speed the pilot hits the ground is a reflection of the size of the chute. The MK12 has a small-ish chute and as I have already explained because to can be deployed at speeds above 600 knots. Try that with a normal canopy and you will be falling to earth under some very nice rags.

Matt
 

PETA ... People Eating Tasty Animals.

B1 Boeing 737-800 and Dash8 Q-400
IP Logged
 
Reply #13 - Jun 7th, 2010 at 3:59am

expat   Offline
Colonel
Deep behind enemy lines!

Gender: male
Posts: 8499
*****
 
machineman9 wrote on Jun 6th, 2010 at 10:34pm:
Any idea what actually happened? It looked like a bad case of 'oh so that is where the ground is' just before meeting with it. Late to pull up, perhaps late to eject, definately late for dinner.



What happened is the wrong manoeuvre in the wrong country. Sounds daft I know, but let me explain. The Harrier is very marginal on thrust when not in conventional flight. The pilot was performing a very short landing. The video looks like Afghanistan from the amount of Rubs (rubber hangers in the background). So add marginal engine performance to high air temperatures and, well you get this. In a previous life that involved a light blue suit I spent quite a lot of time in a hot sunny country with the Harrier Force for Op Warden. The Harrier could only fly early in the morning or evening due to air temperature conditions and was limited to conventional take off and landing. The moment that this pilot decided to perform this landing, he placed his order for his Martin Baker tankard and tie. Also he was unlucky on two other fronts. Firstly it was all captured in glorious technicolour and the Harrier is one of the few fighters that has an accident data recorder . So a nice print out of his accident at 0,1 second intervals too.

Matt
 

PETA ... People Eating Tasty Animals.

B1 Boeing 737-800 and Dash8 Q-400
IP Logged
 
Reply #14 - Jun 7th, 2010 at 9:06am

Al_Fallujah   Ex Member

*
 
Looks like this happened a little over a year ago, based on searching. But I could not find any accident reports.

Anyone gotta link?
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #15 - Jun 7th, 2010 at 11:45am

machineman9   Offline
Colonel
Nantwich, England

Gender: male
Posts: 5255
*****
 
expat wrote on Jun 7th, 2010 at 3:59am:
machineman9 wrote on Jun 6th, 2010 at 10:34pm:
Any idea what actually happened? It looked like a bad case of 'oh so that is where the ground is' just before meeting with it. Late to pull up, perhaps late to eject, definately late for dinner.



What happened is the wrong manoeuvre in the wrong country. Sounds daft I know, but let me explain. The Harrier is very marginal on thrust when not in conventional flight. The pilot was performing a very short landing. The video looks like Afghanistan from the amount of Rubs (rubber hangers in the background). So add marginal engine performance to high air temperatures and, well you get this. In a previous life that involved a light blue suit I spent quite a lot of time in a hot sunny country with the Harrier Force for Op Warden. The Harrier could only fly early in the morning or evening due to air temperature conditions and was limited to conventional take off and landing. The moment that this pilot decided to perform this landing, he placed his order for his Martin Baker tankard and tie. Also he was unlucky on two other fronts. Firstly it was all captured in glorious technicolour and the Harrier is one of the few fighters that has an accident data recorder . So a nice print out of his accident at 0,1 second intervals too.

Matt

Yeah it looked to me as if the pilot was hoping for more to happen than what actually did - Understeer, if you will. Anyone capable of flying something that large is bound to know how to land it properly and for what ever reason it seems like what they were used to doing to land it just didn't work that time. It would be like a Californian trying to park their car on Alaska's slippiest iciest road; they're not quite prepared for what to expect even though they're qualified and may have been driving for decades.
 

...
IP Logged
 
Reply #16 - Jun 7th, 2010 at 12:42pm

Al_Fallujah   Ex Member

*
 
machineman9 wrote on Jun 7th, 2010 at 11:45am:
expat wrote on Jun 7th, 2010 at 3:59am:
machineman9 wrote on Jun 6th, 2010 at 10:34pm:
Any idea what actually happened? It looked like a bad case of 'oh so that is where the ground is' just before meeting with it. Late to pull up, perhaps late to eject, definately late for dinner.



What happened is the wrong manoeuvre in the wrong country. Sounds daft I know, but let me explain. The Harrier is very marginal on thrust when not in conventional flight. The pilot was performing a very short landing. The video looks like Afghanistan from the amount of Rubs (rubber hangers in the background). So add marginal engine performance to high air temperatures and, well you get this. In a previous life that involved a light blue suit I spent quite a lot of time in a hot sunny country with the Harrier Force for Op Warden. The Harrier could only fly early in the morning or evening due to air temperature conditions and was limited to conventional take off and landing. The moment that this pilot decided to perform this landing, he placed his order for his Martin Baker tankard and tie. Also he was unlucky on two other fronts. Firstly it was all captured in glorious technicolour and the Harrier is one of the few fighters that has an accident data recorder . So a nice print out of his accident at 0,1 second intervals too.

Matt

Yeah it looked to me as if the pilot was hoping for more to happen than what actually did - Understeer, if you will. Anyone capable of flying something that large is bound to know how to land it properly and for what ever reason it seems like what they were used to doing to land it just didn't work that time. It would be like a Californian trying to park their car on Alaska's slippiest iciest road; they're not quite prepared for what to expect even though they're qualified and may have been driving for decades.


I saw one news article that indicated it may have been an emergency approach. But only one articel said that, no others, so I cannot confirm it, nor verify the cause of the emergency.

I think I did see that it happened around 1030, which would be pretty warm by that time in the desert.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #17 - Jun 7th, 2010 at 1:52pm

expat   Offline
Colonel
Deep behind enemy lines!

Gender: male
Posts: 8499
*****
 
Quote:
machineman9 wrote on Jun 7th, 2010 at 11:45am:
expat wrote on Jun 7th, 2010 at 3:59am:
machineman9 wrote on Jun 6th, 2010 at 10:34pm:
Any idea what actually happened? It looked like a bad case of 'oh so that is where the ground is' just before meeting with it. Late to pull up, perhaps late to eject, definately late for dinner.



What happened is the wrong manoeuvre in the wrong country. Sounds daft I know, but let me explain. The Harrier is very marginal on thrust when not in conventional flight. The pilot was performing a very short landing. The video looks like Afghanistan from the amount of Rubs (rubber hangers in the background). So add marginal engine performance to high air temperatures and, well you get this. In a previous life that involved a light blue suit I spent quite a lot of time in a hot sunny country with the Harrier Force for Op Warden. The Harrier could only fly early in the morning or evening due to air temperature conditions and was limited to conventional take off and landing. The moment that this pilot decided to perform this landing, he placed his order for his Martin Baker tankard and tie. Also he was unlucky on two other fronts. Firstly it was all captured in glorious technicolour and the Harrier is one of the few fighters that has an accident data recorder . So a nice print out of his accident at 0,1 second intervals too.

Matt

Yeah it looked to me as if the pilot was hoping for more to happen than what actually did - Understeer, if you will. Anyone capable of flying something that large is bound to know how to land it properly and for what ever reason it seems like what they were used to doing to land it just didn't work that time. It would be like a Californian trying to park their car on Alaska's slippiest iciest road; they're not quite prepared for what to expect even though they're qualified and may have been driving for decades.


I saw one news article that indicated it may have been an emergency approach. But only one articel said that, no others, so I cannot confirm it, nor verify the cause of the emergency.

I think I did see that it happened around 1030, which would be pretty warm by that time in the desert.


I would discount the emergency approach theory purely due to the aircraft being in a very tight place when doing that sort of manoeuvre with marginal engine performance due to temperature. A normal emergency harrier approach will be fixed throttle and nozzles at 55 degrees and a normal approach. Saying that, as we only have a video and sketchy reports it is hard to say, however I would suspect that the pilot had an interview without coffee and biscuits.

Here are a couple of reports I found. They mention an emergency landing, but I think that is more propaganda than anything else.

Flightglobal

Due to gear not extending, funny but the video tells another picture and if so, why a risky STOL manoeuvre

Another gear story and luckily the Harrier was not carrying passengers  Grin

So, as you can see, without an official report, lots of, well for want of another word, bollox being reported. Gear failure is a vertical landing to minimise damage. Those wing tanks and gun pods make great crush zones or a conventional landing to minimise damage if for what ever reason (read performance) and not stove it into the ground with a risky STOL approach in high air temperature with doggy gear Huh

Matt   
 

PETA ... People Eating Tasty Animals.

B1 Boeing 737-800 and Dash8 Q-400
IP Logged
 
Reply #18 - Jun 7th, 2010 at 6:49pm

The Ruptured Duck   Offline
Colonel
Legally sane since yesterday!
Wichita, KS

Gender: male
Posts: 2614
*****
 
I imagine he was thinking what many student pilots think when they carry too much airspeed over the runway and balloon:  "I can save it, I can save it."  Of course then he saw the airplane was on fire and ejected Grin
 

"If you would not be forgotten, as soon as you are dead and rotten, either write things worth reading, or do things worth the writing" -Ben Franklin&&&&"Man must rise above the Earth to the top of the atmosphere and beyond, for only thus will he fully understand the world in which he lives." - Socrates&&&&" Flying is a religion. A religion that asymilates all who get a taste of it." - Me&&&&"Make the most out of yourself, for that is all there is of you"- Ralf Waldo Emerson&&
IP Logged
 
Reply #19 - Jun 10th, 2010 at 4:30pm

Al_Fallujah   Ex Member

*
 
expat wrote on Jun 7th, 2010 at 1:52pm:


I saw that one. I laughed as well.
Thats what happens when people report on aviation events when they have no clue about anything aviation.
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 
Send Topic Print