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Boeings Next Gen Tanker(The Winner) (Read 1201 times)
Mar 14
th
, 2010 at 10:06am
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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Here is the site that keeps popping up every web site i visit now.
http://www.unitedstatestanker.com/
Funny
Video:(built by Americans, for Americans, in America...lol)
http://www.unitedstatestanker.com/video
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Last Edit: Mar 1
st
, 2011 at 2:50pm by OVERLORD_CHRIS
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Reply #1 -
Mar 14
th
, 2010 at 10:41am
Rich H
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So a 767, but with a 787 cockpit basically?
"Politics" is made up of two words, "Poli", which is Greek for "many", and "tics", which are blood sucking insects. - Gore Vidal
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Reply #2 -
Mar 14
th
, 2010 at 10:46am
DaveSims
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OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote
on Mar 14
th
, 2010 at 10:06am:
Here is the site that keeps popping up every web site i visit now.
http://www.unitedstatestanker.com/
Funny
Video:(built by Americans, for Americans, in America...lol)
http://www.unitedstatestanker.com/video
And 60% of the parts are foreign made.
Dave
www.flymcw.com
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Reply #3 -
Mar 15
th
, 2010 at 4:26am
Meck
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This will have some juristic aftermath I'm sure:
Europe and especially EADS & Northrop Grumman-chairmen and France/German politicians aren't quite amused about the new advertisment, that - in their eyes - favored Boeing.
www.eads.com
excuse bad grammar; "I' bin Bayer..." - German Airforce Private First Class (war reserve)
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Reply #4 -
Mar 15
th
, 2010 at 6:00am
ozzy72
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In the current economic climate it is hardly surprising that governments are doing a bit of "protectionism" to make out how flag wavingly, hand on heart they are.... a very short term view if you ask me....
There are two types of aeroplane, Spitfires and everything else that wishes it was a Spitfire!
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Reply #5 -
Mar 15
th
, 2010 at 12:33pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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No C-17B's, C-5M's for
Every One!
Chalreston SC
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DaveSims wrote
on Mar 14
th
, 2010 at 10:46am:
[quote author=OVERLORD_CHRIS
Funny
Video:(built by Americans, for Americans, in America...lol)
http://www.unitedstatestanker.com/video
Quote:
And 60% of the parts are foreign made.
I know, that's what i find so funny.
ozzy72 wrote
on Mar 15
th
, 2010 at 6:00am:
In the current economic climate it is hardly surprising that governments are doing a bit of "protectionism" to make out how flag wavingly, hand on heart they are.... a very short term view if you ask me....
I think it is stupid how they thought keeping 700-1200 jobs was better then creating 50,000 all over the country, and then a year latter hire another several thousand to work at the newly built plant next to the 1st one, but I guess in the long run the needs of the few better then the needs of the many.
In the video Boeing takes credit for the MD KC-10, witch beat the 747 for the large tanker contract. So in a technicality, Boeing can only take credit for the KB-29, and KB-97 before they went with the radical new KC-135A.
And yet they say that the KC-767 is combat proven, even though the first Air Force to fly it was the JASDF, so how the hell it is proven? I have no idea. And they criticized NG for using an "unproven" design, but yet they did just that in 1954 when they offered the KC-135A, an "unproven" plane to SAC. And yet it went on to be one the greatest designs for a tanker.
And even though AMC said no matter what plane wins, it will get defensive systems so it can fly closer to the battle field and provide better support for fighter, bombers and transports aircraft, but yet in the video some one it was proven that the 767 is "more survivable" in combat situations.....How did they come to that conclusion?
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Reply #6 -
Mar 15
th
, 2010 at 12:43pm
DaveSims
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Not to mention, this wouldn't be the first piece of non-American equipment our government has ever bought. Just look at the Harrier (license built by McDonnell Douglas, but still part of Bae), almost every helicopter in the Coast Guard fleet (Dauphin, the retired Mako). I could see, front-line, state of the art equipment you might have some security issues with, and would want completely in house in case of war with the country who made it, but a tanker is just a flying gas station, not much to it. I don't necessarily favor Airbus as a manufacturer, but I think the bid process shouldn't be so tainted with politics. The end result, the state with more congressmen gets the bid, which is why Airbus lost. Alabama isn't know for having a large political influence, unlike Washington state.
Dave
www.flymcw.com
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Reply #7 -
Mar 15
th
, 2010 at 1:57pm
C
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Earth
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DaveSims wrote
on Mar 15
th
, 2010 at 12:43pm:
Not to mention, this wouldn't be the first piece of non-American equipment our government has ever bought. Just look at the Harrier (license built by McDonnell Douglas, but still part of Bae),
Spitfire, Mosquito, Canberra...
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Reply #8 -
Mar 15
th
, 2010 at 4:30pm
DaveSims
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C wrote
on Mar 15
th
, 2010 at 1:57pm:
DaveSims wrote
on Mar 15
th
, 2010 at 12:43pm:
Not to mention, this wouldn't be the first piece of non-American equipment our government has ever bought. Just look at the Harrier (license built by McDonnell Douglas, but still part of Bae),
Spitfire, Mosquito, Canberra...
The Canberra I am aware of, but I can't say I've ever seen a Spitty or Mossie in US colors. Have seen pics of a few RAF Mustangs though.
Dave
www.flymcw.com
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Reply #9 -
Mar 15
th
, 2010 at 4:51pm
C
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Earth
Posts: 13144
DaveSims wrote
on Mar 15
th
, 2010 at 4:30pm:
C wrote
on Mar 15
th
, 2010 at 1:57pm:
DaveSims wrote
on Mar 15
th
, 2010 at 12:43pm:
Not to mention, this wouldn't be the first piece of non-American equipment our government has ever bought. Just look at the Harrier (license built by McDonnell Douglas, but still part of Bae),
Spitfire, Mosquito, Canberra...
The Canberra I am aware of, but I can't say I've ever seen a Spitty or Mossie in US colors.
Mossie - the PR variant:
http://www.airrecce.co.uk/graphics/AC/Mosquito/F-8-USAAF-650.jpg
Spits - mainly Mk Vs, IX/XVIs and PR XIs (shown here):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/matzos/USAAFPRXI.jpg
Quote:
Have seen pics of a few RAF Mustangs though.
Well the Mustang was the result of an RAF specification - in fact, in modern corporate speak, you could say the RAF was the "launch customer".
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Reply #10 -
Mar 15
th
, 2010 at 4:58pm
Hagar
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DaveSims wrote
on Mar 15
th
, 2010 at 4:30pm:
The Canberra I am aware of, but I can't say I've ever seen a Spitty or Mossie in US colors. Have seen pics of a few RAF Mustangs though.
This will have to do for the moment.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:USAAF_Spitfire_in_UK_309FS_31FG.jpg
You forgot to mention the T-45 Goshawk which is basically a BAe Hawk with an 'ook.
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Reply #11 -
Mar 16
th
, 2010 at 7:19am
lefty
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And a few more......
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/wilkofife/sv4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/wilkofife/sv3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/wilkofife/sv2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/wilkofife/sv1.jpg
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Last Edit: Mar 16
th
, 2010 at 12:58pm by ozzy72
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Reply #12 -
Mar 16
th
, 2010 at 12:59pm
ozzy72
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Some great examples there Lefty, I never realised the USAAF had used the Lizzie (learn something every day around here), but please don't link images from other sites, it slows things down for other users (especially the non-broadband mob)
There are two types of aeroplane, Spitfires and everything else that wishes it was a Spitfire!
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Reply #13 -
Mar 16
th
, 2010 at 4:47pm
lefty
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Sorry about that - I did read your forum rules and thought image linking was OK - put it down to old age....
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Reply #14 -
Mar 20
th
, 2010 at 8:04pm
SeanTK
Ex Member
Now the Russians are entering the fray with what the article claims will be a design "based on the Ilyushin IL-96".
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/19/us.russia.refueling.tanker/index.html?hpt=T2
This is getting ridiculous. As has been demonstrated, the US military should be no stranger to using "foreign" aircraft.
The Dassault Falcon 20 (HU-25 Guardian) and Eurocopter AS-365 (HH-65 Dolphin) are two French examples that have been in use with the Coast Guard for a couple of decades now, and always receive much praise.
Someone else mentioned the Harrier for the Marines, and the Sherpa for the Army, among others.
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Reply #15 -
Mar 22
nd
, 2010 at 9:53am
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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I read that Saturday, but was waiting for the end of today for the official word from the Russian government on this one, since now they are claiming they never said that.
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Reply #16 -
Mar 24
th
, 2010 at 6:04am
Meck
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And EADS seems to be in again - without Northrop-Grumman though...!
excuse bad grammar; "I' bin Bayer..." - German Airforce Private First Class (war reserve)
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Reply #17 -
Mar 24
th
, 2010 at 1:18pm
C
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Meck wrote
on Mar 24
th
, 2010 at 6:04am:
And EADS seems to be in again - without Northrop-Grumman though...!
Maybe they've been asked to submit a proposal to mitigate any lack of a competition.
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Reply #18 -
May 17
th
, 2010 at 6:30pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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I think this may spear head passing the bill that make the DOD take into account subsidies, like the Boeing supporters on Capital Hill want, locking out EADS and any other "foreign" company from bidding on US contracts.
Quote:
Boeing source: We may not bid for KC-X
By Vago Muradian and John Reed - Staff writers
Posted : Monday May 17, 2010 18:17:17 EDT
Boeing is considering not bidding for the Air Force’s KC-X tanker contract, a company source said May 14.
That would leave Europe’s EADS — which earlier this year had threatened its own pullout — as the sole bidder for the multibillion-dollar prize.
CEO Jim McNerney and other executives are privately debating whether their company can even win, much less make a profit, on the fixed-price contract, one senior Boeing executive said.
“Is it conceivable that we wouldn’t bid?” the executive said. “We are proud of the fleet and want it to win the contract so the Air Force keeps flying our planes. Your heart says you have to be part of it, but a CEO’s job is to make sure that the heart doesn’t make a decision the head can’t live with.”
Boeing spokesman Damien Mills insisted May 13 that the firm will bid.
But Boeing supporters have long complained that illegal subsidies would lower EADS’ bid price, and company officials have said for several weeks that the Pentagon appears to have shifted requirements to favor the European firm.
Earlier this year, DoD officials — eager to avoid a sole-source award to Boeing in the wake of Northrop Grumman’s withdrawal — delayed the bidding deadline 60 days to allow EADS to bid. DoD also allowed the European firm to enter the contest without a U.S. firm as a partner.
Pentagon officials say they have changed neither the requirements nor the way the bids will be evaluated.
“Jim doesn’t want to be in a position that we are going to bid a losing bid,” the Boeing executive said. “It gets difficult when you’re dealing with a competitor who has flat-out said on several occasions that they’re going to underbid us. How can they do that if the list price of their plane is higher than the list on our plane? Because they are subsidized and we’re a for-profit company, so the question we’re asking is: How do we compete against four governments?”
The average cost of a Boeing 767-200ER is $133 million, of an Airbus A330-200F, $194.8 million, according to Teal Group aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia.
The executive said Boeing has not arrived at a decision. He said raising the prospect of sitting out was not a negotiating tactic.
On May 13, Pentagon officials said that they have heard nothing from Boeing about leaving the competition.
Subsidy Scuffle
Boeing executives and its supporters say Airbus, which has garnered more than half of the commercial jet market in recent years, has been powered by tens of billions of dollars in subsidies over four decades. The World Trade Organization recently resolved a 2009 lawsuit filed by the U.S. government, finding Airbus guilty of using illegal subsidies to win contracts with predatory pricing. Europe has countersued, claiming Boeing benefits from research and development tax credits.
On May 13, two Republican lawmakers from Kansas, Sen. Sam Brownback and Rep. Todd Tiahrt, introduced legislation in the U.S. House and Senate that would order the Pentagon officials who will weigh the KC-X bids to factor in the startup subsidies EADS received for its A330. Tiahrt said he estimates the subsidies to be worth about $5 million per airplane.
The Pentagon says it will not take the WTO ruling into account because EADS plans to appeal, and waiting for the outcome could add yet more years of delay to the tanker effort.
Dubbing the proposed legislation “The Boeing Bill,” EADS spokesman Guy Hicks called it “one more attempt to avoid competing on the merits of the tanker.”
Analysts Respond
A financial analyst said a prudent Boeing would consider all options.
“If Boeing can’t make a fair return for their investment, then they shouldn’t do it,” said Ron Epstein of Banc of America. “Shareholders would rather see Boeing cover its cost of capital than win an unprofitable contract. If EADS is going to bid below their cost of capital to subsidize our military, great, they should do it.”
But Aboulafia is skeptical: “It would be a very bold move if true — possibly too bold.”
Analyst David Berteau of the Center for Strategic and International Studies said he doubts that Congress will be able to write effective legislation in time to affect the competition.
He also said Boeing’s threat is unlikely to sway Pentagon officials who have said that they “prefer a competition, but they’ll move forward with only one” bidder.
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2010/05/defense_boeing_bid_051410/
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Last Edit: May 27
th
, 2010 at 2:48pm by OVERLORD_CHRIS
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Reply #19 -
May 27
th
, 2010 at 2:44pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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No C-17B's, C-5M's for
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Quote:
REFILE-UPDATE 2-Boeing cites Iran in tanker battle with EADS
WASHINGTON, May 25 (Reuters) - Boeing Co (BA.N) accused rival EADS (EAD.PA) of having courted Iran and other countries at odds with the United States and said this should be taken into account in awarding a potential $50 billion U.S. Air Force refueling plane contract.
EADS, headquartered in Paris and Munich, "continues to do business with countries that are not friendly to the United States," Timothy Keating, Boeing's vice president of government operations, told a small group of reporters.
U.S. national security could be undercut by relying on EADS, a company over which the United States lacks as much "leverage" as it does over Boeing from which it buys much more, he added.
The Defense Department rose to the defense of EADS, saying it did not want to get involved in the "political sparring that is clearly taking place here" and would confine its response to a "statement of fact."
"We would not have welcomed EADS North America's participation in this important competition unless they were a company in good standing with the Department of Defense," Geoff Morrell, the Pentagon press secretary, said by email.
Boeing and the corporate parent of Boeing's commercial archrival, Airbus, are locked in an increasingly bitter race to sell the Air Force an initial 179 tankers used to refuel other planes in mid-air.
Keating cited a marketing effort by EADS subsidiary Eurocopter at an Iranian air show at a time the United States was pushing European allies to get tougher on Iran over its nuclear program. The event took place in 2005, said Boeing officials, who supplied a link to an NBC television report at the time.
"We have not seen any indication that EADS no longer has an interest in marketing their military products to countries like Iran," a U.S. foe, Daniel Beck, a Boeing spokesman, said in a follow-up telephone interview.
A laminated card newly distributed by Boeing on Capitol Hill described EADS and its Airbus subsidiary as "foreign government owned." It added that they were free from such laws as the U.S. Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which outlaws bribes and improper payments to win contracts overseas.
The card's flip side said the United States, "for reasons of national security," had never bought a critical military system "developed or produced by a foreign owned or controlled company -- including aerial refueling tanker aircraft."
France, Germany and to a lesser extent Spain have considerable sway over EADS, which was formed in 2000 through a merger of aerospace assets, but they have no say in day-to-day decisions or strategy.
The French government owns 15 percent, but its hands are tied by a shareholder pact giving control over nearly all issues to the industrial founders: French media group Lagardere (LAGA.PA) and German car company Daimler AG (DAIGn.DE). The pact was designed to allay German concerns about any French state interference.
EADS North America was chosen in 2006 to supply a new light utility helicopter for the U.S. Army, with a potential total "life-cycle" value of more than $2 billion.
A spokesman for EADS North American arm, James Darcy, said Boeing was trying to make the tanker competition "about anything other than getting the best tanker for the Air Force."
Boeing officials said the national-security implications of any EADS tanker contract were more serious now that Northrop Grumman Corp (NOC.N), EADS's partner in a previous tanker competition, had dropped out.
Northrop withdrew in March, complaining the contest was unfairly slanted to favor Boeing's smaller 767 wide-body derivative over its tanker based on a modified Airbus A330.
The Northrop-EADS partnership won the deal in 2008 only to have the award withdrawn after the Government Accountability Office ruled in favor of a Boeing protest that the Air Force had failed to follow its own bid-evaluating rules.
Boeing now says it fears EADS plans to low-ball its bid in an attempt to boost its toehold in the lucrative U.S. market. It is pushing a bill in Congress that would force the Pentagon to adjust EADS' bid by the value of illegal European subsidies as determined by a final World Trade Organization panel ruling in March.
"Only with a heavily and illegally subsidized price could their much bigger airplane cost less than than Boeing's 767 tanker," Keating told reporters. "We simply believe that the unfair advantage of those subsidies needs to be considered."
A European counter claim that Boeing has benefited from improper U.S. federal, state and local subsidies is due for an interim ruling by the WTO by the end of next month. A final ruling may not come in time to be factored in under the legislation introduced by lawmakers from Kansas, where Boeing's tanker would undergo final assembly and militarization.
Keating said the U.S. government would lack leverage to make sure of an uninterrupted flow of spare parts, for instance, for any Airbus tanker in case of a policy difference with France and Germany, which opposed the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.
"What leverage does the United States have over EADS North America" the unit that would be the prime contractor, he asked.
"A lot less than they would have over the Boeing Company" which does a lot more business with Washington, he responded.
In an NBC television report that aired on Feb. 23, 2005, an EADS representative, Michel Tripier, said his company was emphasizing its civil helicopters at the air show on the Iranian island of Kish.
"As a European company, we're not supposed to take into account embargoes from the U.S.," he said on camera at the time.
EADS' Darcy said Tripier had not been authorized to make that statement "and his comments were both incorrect and inappropriate.
"He was removed from his position and ultimately left the company," Darcy added.
The only arms sales to Iran banned under three U.N. Security Council resolutions passed since December 2006 were those that might contribute to Tehran developing nuclear weapons. However, sanctions now under consideration by the council would bar sale of many categories of heavy weapons to Iran. (Reporting by Jim Wolf; additional reporting by Tim Hepher in Paris and Patrick Worsnip at the United Nations; editing by Tim Dobbyn and Andre Grenon)
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2515326220100525
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Reply #20 -
May 27
th
, 2010 at 2:57pm
Ivan
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Boeing being naive... The whole Iranian AF uses Boeing tankers... they even got two experimental 747s left over from the KC-10 program.
And most airbus planes have US made engines, so where is the problem
Russian planes:
IL-76 (all standard length ones)
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Tu-154 and Il-62
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Tu-134
and
An-24RV
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Reply #21 -
May 29
th
, 2010 at 12:38pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
Offline
Colonel
No C-17B's, C-5M's for
Every One!
Chalreston SC
Gender:
Posts: 1148
Ivan wrote
on May 27
th
, 2010 at 2:57pm:
Boeing being naive... The whole Iranian AF uses Boeing tankers... they even got two experimental 747s left over from the KC-10 program.
And most airbus planes have US made engines, so where is the problem
They have forgotten that, and shrug it off.
US Congress deals blow to EADS over tankers
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Reply #22 -
Jun 2
nd
, 2010 at 6:40pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
Offline
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No C-17B's, C-5M's for
Every One!
Chalreston SC
Gender:
Posts: 1148
Quote:
Boeing Statement on Amendment to the FY2011 National Defense Authorization Act H.R. 513
6
With a recorded vote of 410-8, the U.S. House of Representatives today adopted a bipartisan amendment offered by Reps. Jay Inslee (D-Wash.), Rosa DeLauro (D-Conn.), Todd Tiahrt (R-Kan.), Rick Larsen (D-Wash.), Michael Turner (R-Ohio), and Russ Carnahan (D-Mo.) to the fiscal year 2011 National Defense Authorization Act to ensure a level playing field for the KC-X tanker competition. The amendment requires the Department of Defense to consider any unfair competitive advantage that European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co. (EADS) and its subsidiary Airbus have gained from decades of illegal subsidies. The World Trade Organization recently ruled that Airbus received billions of dollars in illegal launch aid from European governments, including almost $5 billion used to develop the A330, EADS’ tanker platform.
Boeing released the following statement on the amendment:
"We fully support the efforts of all members of Congress who share our concern about the unfair competitive advantage that EADS/Airbus, a foreign company, gained from decades of illegal launch aid subsidies worth billions of dollars. We are encouraged by strong bipartisan support for a fair competition on a level playing field. The amendment requires the Department of Defense to take into consideration illegal European launch aid subsidies in bid evaluations for America's next tanker. It is entirely appropriate that these congressional leaders take such steps to prevent the U.S. defense industrial base from suffering the same fate as the commercial aircraft industry, where illegal subsidies have contributed to the loss of tens of thousands of U.S. aerospace jobs."
http://www.unitedstatestanker.com/blog/main/2010/05/27/boeing-statement-on-amend...
;
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Reply #23 -
Jul 8
th
, 2010 at 10:04pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
Offline
Colonel
No C-17B's, C-5M's for
Every One!
Chalreston SC
Gender:
Posts: 1148
Quote:
US lawmaker group, hostile to EADS bid, cites WTO
* 2 congressmen threaten to cut off tanker appropriations
* Pentagon faulted for sticking "head in sand"
* Pentagon says has nothing new to say on matter
By Jim Wolf
WASHINGTON, June 30 (Reuters) - The Pentagon must take into account subsidies that went to Airbus in judging a rematch with Boeing Co (BA.N) for a fat contract to build a new fleet of U.S. Air Force refueling planes, a bipartisan group of lawmakers said.
At least two congressmen, reacting to a World Trade Organization ruling in a long-running subsidy dispute, spoke Wednesday of cutting off funding for the potential $50 billion tanker order if it went to EADS (EAD.PA), Airbus's corporate parent, without factoring in the WTO's findings.
Bids are due July 9 in the Air Force's third try in a decade to replace 179 of its KC-135 tankers, which average about 50 years old.
About a dozen members of the House and Senate, speaking to reporters in an outdoor press conference on the Capitol grounds, voiced concern the Pentagon would ignore the WTO.
"The Defense Department cannot look forward to appropriations for this tanker unless it takes into consideration in the bidding process these illegal subsidies," said Rep. Jay Inslee of Washington state, where Boeing manufactures the 767 widebody it would use for its tanker.
Rep. Todd Tiahrt of Kansas, where Boeing's tankers would undergo final assembly, said such action might take place after the tanker award, which is expected by Nov. 12.
A WTO panel found Airbus had only been able to launch a series of passenger jets -- including the A330 it would modify to become a U.S. tanker -- thanks to banned subsidies from the EU and member states Britain, France, Germany and Spain.
Boeing's political allies contend the Defense Department in evaluating EADS' tanker bid should raise the total consistent with the $5 billion in subsidies found to have gone to develop the A330.
The House of Representatives voted 410 to 8 on May 27 to force the Pentagon to consider illegal subsidies in the contest. It did so in an amendment to a fiscal 2011 defense spending bill. The Senate has not yet acted on the matter.
"The Pentagon can no longer stick its head in the sand over this flagrant violation of rules by Airbus and EU," said Sen. Kit Bond of Missouri, where Boeing's military aircraft arm is headquartered.
Sen. Sam Brownback of Kansas, where the proposed Boeing tanker also would be militarized, told Reuters he would move as soon as possible in the Senate to match the House vote requiring the Pentagon to factor in subsidies.
Geoff Morrell, the Pentagon's press secretary, said by email that he had nothing to add to the Pentagon's oft-stated position on the matter. In the past he has said the Pentagon cannot take punitive action against EADS outside the WTO process, which provides for appeals.
"This is a situation where both sides have claims and counterclaims against each other," he said on March 25.
"We expect the WTO findings will be appealed and the resolution of this matter will take years."
Senator Richard Shelby of Alabama, where EADS would build its version of the tanker, said in a statement: "The tanker competition must move forward as it is currently structured. It would be a significant mistake, with severe consequences to both our economy and trade relations, to attempt to restrict the tanker competition based on this WTO report."
A first confidential report in a countersuit brought by the European Union against U.S. support for Boeing is expected on July 16.
Guy Hicks, a spokesman for EADS' North American arm, said the only beneficiary of the punitive actions being sought by Boeing's allies in Congress would be Boeing.
U.S. forces would lose the right to choose the best tanker, taxpayers would lose the benefits of competition and the 48,000 Americans that EADS says would be employed for its tanker "would be robbed of the opportunity to work in support of U.S. national security," he said in an email.
In 2004, a plan to lease and then buy Boeing 767s, modified as tankers, collapsed in a scandal that sent Boeing's chief financial officer and the Air Force's former No. 2 arms buyer to prison for conflict-of-interest violations. EADS, then partnered with Northrop Grumman Corp (NOC.N), won a 179-plane contract in February 2008.
That deal was canceled after Boeing successfully protested the award, setting the stage for the current competition. In siding with Boeing last time, the Government Accountability Office said the Air Force had made several errors that could have changed the outcome, including failing to properly follow its own judging criteria. (Reporting by Jim Wolf; Editing by Gary Hill)
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN3025060320100630
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Reply #24 -
Jan 6
th
, 2011 at 3:32am
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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Boeing tries the back door
by The Anniston Star Editorial Board
December 9, 2010
You have to give Boeing Co. and its political allies credit. When it comes to securing the $40 billion Air Force refueling tanker contract, they don’t give up.
What does it matter if Defense Secretary Robert Gates and the Air Force feel that Boeing’s tactics are, in the words of U.S. Rep. Jo Bonner, R-Mobile, “underhanded.”
What do they care if their efforts represent, as U.S. Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Mobile, put it, “an unacceptable political attempt” to confuse and delay the acquisition of these much-needed planes.
Why should they follow procedure and notify U.S. Rep. Buck McKeon, R-Calif., the ranking member and soon-to-be chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, of a bill they wanted to slip through a Congress that was hurriedly trying to finish its business and adjourn?
Who cares? Not Boeing and friends.
What Boeing’s political allies did was introduce at the 11th hour the “Defense Level Playing Field Act,” which would require the Pentagon to factor in a yet unresolved World Trade Organization dispute over subsidies to tanker companies when it selects the company to receive the contract. Gates, the Air Force and others rightly see this as having little to do with this competition. Nevertheless, Boeing got a tired and distracted Congress to approve the measure.
Sessions called it the “Boeing Preservation Act” and vowed to kill it in the Senate. Observers feel he has the support to do it. Good for Sessions.
Of course, this page wants Boeing’s competitor EADS to win the contract because it will mean a $600 million assembly facility in the Mobile area and thousands of good jobs for Alabama people.
But there are other reasons Alabamians should want EADS to prevail. The EADS tanker, defense analysts say, is better suited for what the Air Force requires.
Moreover, if the contract is let early next year, production can begin and the Air Force will sooner get the tanker that it has named its top priority.
It is disappointing to see that the Alabama, Florida and Mississippi delegations were not able to block this bill in the House, where most members were apparently caught by surprise and did not mount serious opposition to it. Now it becomes the task of Sens. Sessions and Richard Shelby, R-Tuscaloosa, to do a better job for the state and the region.
They need to be up to the task.
Read more: Anniston Star - Boeing tries the back door
http://annistonstar.com/bookmark/10805750-Boeing-tries-the-back-door
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Reply #25 -
Jan 6
th
, 2011 at 3:35am
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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Wiki Leaks exposes US-French ‘war’ over jet sales
Leaked embassy cables show that US diplomats aggressively pushed foreign governments to purchase Boeing airplanes, helping the US aviation giant in the bitter transatlantic battle with its European rival, Airbus.
By Joseph BAMAT
In late 2007, the national airline of the Kingdom of Bahrain announced a huge deal to buy airplanes from European aviation giant Airbus. But only a few weeks later, Gulf Air’s decision was suddenly reversed and a new contract signing ceremony with US aerospace rival Boeing was scheduled to coincide with then US President George W. Bush’s trip to Bahrain – the first ever visit of a sitting US president.
Airbus had been sidelined by backdoor dealings at the highest levels, and not even an eleventh-hour appeal by French President Nicolas Sarkozy could undo the damage. It was just one of many incidents of US diplomatic wrangling that led foreign governments to favour Boeing over Airbus.
Hundreds of newly leaked cables, obtained by the US daily the New York Times, show that US diplomats have aggressively lobbied foreign governments to buy commercial jetliners built by the Seattle-based airplane manufacturer.
“United States diplomats were acting like marketing agents, offering deals to heads of state and airline executives whose decisions could be influenced by price, performance and, as with all finicky customers with plenty to spend, perks,” the daily wrote.
The cables describe how US diplomatic staff approached, wooed and sometimes cajoled foreign officials who were still considering whether to buy airplanes from Boeing or Airbus. The bargaining chips included not only presidential visits, but negotiations over landing rights at New York’s John F. Kennedy Airport and private jet upgrades.
The leaked embassy cables shed new light on what is recognised as one of the most bitter and ongoing transatlantic commercial feuds, despite a decades-old trade agreement between US and European leaders to keep politics out of airline deals.
But with billions of dollars and tens of thousands of jobs at stake US and European diplomats felt compelled to intervene, especially during an economic crisis.
While it is common knowledge that diplomats intervene to promote their country’s businesses, the newly leaked cables reveal the extensive backroom negotiations propelling major multinational aviation contracts.
In the case of the Gulf Air contract, it was the former US ambassador, Adam Ereli, who appealed directly to the kingdom’s crown prince to overturn the deal reached between the airline company and Airbus, even though the Airbus deal was 400 million dollars less than Boeing’s offer, the cables revealed.
“Seeing that Airbus had been outmanoeuvred, France’s president, Nicolas Sarkozy, made a last minute bid to save the deal… He offered to visit Bahrain after Bush had left, but that stop-over was cancelled when the Boeing agreement was signed in January 2008,” the New York Times reported.
In 2006, a senior Commerce Department official hand-delivered a personal letter from former President Bush to the Jeddah office of the Saudi King, urging him to buy 43 Boeing jets. According to the cables, the king replied in turn with a personal request: “all the technology that his friend, President Bush, had on Air Force One,” for his own private jet.
According to the New York Times, the cables also suggest demands for bribes “still take place”. But the embassy documents also revealed that Boeing and US officials turned away some requests to hire intermediaries who charge illegal commissions.
Boeing and Airbus each control about half of the global market for commercial jetliners, but Boeing eclipsed Airbus in net orders in 2010, securing 484 orders against 388, according to November data.
The revelations of Washington’s sales pitches for Boeing comes before a much-anticipated contract decision by the US Air Force slated for early in 2011; one which involves rival bids from Boeing and Europe's EADS –the European aviation and defence group that includes Airbus.
The Pentagon’s plan to buy 179 tankers to renew its fleet of Eisenhower-era refuelling aircraft is worth up to 38 billion euros ($50 billion).
The current contest marks the Pentagon’s third try to buy new tankers, which has been dragged out by complaints by both parties of faulty and unfair bidding practices, and claims of illegal subsidies to the aviation giants.
In July 2010, the World Trade Organization partly backed a US complaint that some state support for aerospace giant Airbus is illegal.
The US had complained that Airbus had received “illegal help” from the EU totalling 139 billion euros since 1967. The EU hit back saying that Boeing’s financial assistance from the US government was nearer to 300 billion euros over the same period and has launched an appeal.
http://www.france24.com/en/20110103-boeing-airbus-war-usa-france-wikileaks-cable...
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Reply #26 -
Jan 13
th
, 2011 at 5:58pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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Quote:
Boeing to Air Force: Don't mess up
A top Boeing executive warned the Air Force that its decision on who builds the next $35 billion fleet of aerial refueling tankers should be “airtight” and thinks the contract award will come “later rather than sooner.”
“I’ve been waiting for that decision for 10 years. I’m not holding my breath,” James Albaugh, Boeing’s CEO for commercial airplanes told reporters in a wide-ranging discussion Wednesday.
Read more:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47519.html#ixzz1AxW0umOe
The Air Force’s attempt to make a new fleet of tanker aircraft is in its third go-round – with the stakes between aerospace heavyweights Boeing and the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co. growing by the day.
In November, the Air Force slipped up, providing information about Boeing’s bid to EADS and information about EADS to Boeing. That incident led Loren Thompson, the chief executive officer of the industry-funded Lexington Institute, whose philosophical sympathies lie with Boeing, to declare that EADS was likely to win.
In light of the controversy, Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.), chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, has said he plans to hold hearings on the matter by Feb. 1. A date, however, has not yet been set, according to the committee.
And Albaugh said that all eyes will be on the Air Force’s next decision.
“This is going to be the most scrutinized procurement we’ve seen in a long, long time,” he said. “They should spend a lot of time making sure this is an airtight decision that they make.”
According to the Air Force, the award is “moving toward completion,” and The Hill newspaper quoted Air Force Secretary Mike Donley as saying a decision would be coming “soon.”
Albaugh also serves as the chairman of the Aerospace Industries Association board of governors. And in that capacity, he said the association will be reaching out to new members of Congress, many of whom were elected with reducing the federal deficit in mind.
“For a new member of Congress I think it’s important to understand what a big part of the economy aerospace is,” Albaugh said, adding that aerospace represents 4 percent of the gross domestic product.
“It’s incumbent on us to make sure there’s an appreciation for what we do,” he said.
And Marion Blakey, president of the association, said that even though many new members of Congress are focused on deficit reduction, they haven’t, for the most part, been tuned into defense or declared their positions on defense spending.
“There really is an opportunity to talk in depth about … what needs to be preserved and what needs to be tightened,” she said. The group was meeting Wednesday with Rep. Hal Rogers (R-Ky.), chairman of the House Appropriations Committee.
More specifically, one area the association will be focused on is getting the administration to decide what it wants out of its industrial base. And that means pointing out that because of investment decisions at the Pentagon, engineering expertise could be lost.
Right now, no design teams are working on new programs for airplanes, rotorcraft, communications satellites, spacecraft for human exploration, large transport aircraft or small transport aircraft.
He said that Boeing had had difficulties with its 787 Dreamliner commercial aircraft because of atrophy in its design teams. “I fear that we’ll have a similar issue on the defense side,” he said.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47519.html#comments
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Reply #27 -
Jan 18
th
, 2011 at 8:00pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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Boeing allies wary of Sarkozy visit
As the Air Force nears a tanker decision, Boeing and EADS are getting sensitive about who's got access to the Oval Office. Boeing's supporters fear today's arrival of French president Nicolas Sarkozy – last time he came to town, he pressed President Obama for a "free and fair" competition, and Obama told him he could "trust" that would be the case. Boeing backers are wondering just what Sarkozy will say this time around.
Likewise, EADS may be ruffled by Obama's pick for chief of staff – Boeing board member Bill Daley. An industry official noted it was Daley's brother who helped bring Boeing to Chicago and said that the choice runs counter to Obama's previous position of choosing people who come in without a question mark.
"In a shrinking defense budget environment, where the competition for every dollar is going to be more and more intense, even just the appearance of someone in a senior position with a disposition to one company or another is disconcerting," the official said. "Now there's a champion for Boeing in the office next to the president. That's going to make you nervous.”
http://www.politico.com/politico44/perm/0111/tanker_tea_leaves_853eddb3-e49d-458...
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Reply #28 -
Jan 19
th
, 2011 at 9:44am
C
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OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote
on Jan 18
th
, 2011 at 8:00pm:
Likewise, EADS may be ruffled by Obama's pick for chief of staff – Boeing board member Bill Daley. An industry official noted it was Daley's brother who helped bring Boeing to Chicago and said that the choice runs counter to Obama's previous position of choosing people who come in without a question mark.
Daley? Chicago? Oh dear.
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Reply #29 -
Jan 19
th
, 2011 at 7:20pm
DaveSims
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C wrote
on Jan 19
th
, 2011 at 9:44am:
OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote
on Jan 18
th
, 2011 at 8:00pm:
Likewise, EADS may be ruffled by Obama's pick for chief of staff – Boeing board member Bill Daley. An industry official noted it was Daley's brother who helped bring Boeing to Chicago and said that the choice runs counter to Obama's previous position of choosing people who come in without a question mark.
Daley? Chicago? Oh dear.
Mayor Daley's brother...
... but can't say much more due to forum rules on politics.
Dave
www.flymcw.com
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Reply #30 -
Jan 20
th
, 2011 at 12:51pm
C
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DaveSims wrote
on Jan 19
th
, 2011 at 7:20pm:
Mayor Daley's brother...
... but can't say much more due to forum rules on politics.
Quite!
Even as a Brit, I know that's not the best thing!
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Reply #31 -
Jan 21
st
, 2011 at 12:47pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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Quote:
Cantwell: Air Force must answer questions about tanker flub
The Air Force's word that its inadvertent disclosure of information about Boeing and EADS North America's aerial refueling tanker bids to the competing companies didn't give anyone an unfair advantage isn't good enough, U.S. Sen. Maria Cantwell, D-Wash., said Thursday.
"We're actually here today to put the Air Force on notice that we want questions answered as to the process that has been followed in allowing the information from both sides of these bids to be revealed," Cantwell said after touring the Everett assembly line for Boeing's 767, which is the basis for the company's proposed NewGen Tanker.
"Vital information about Boeing's bid was revealed to their competitor in the bidding process," she said.
And we know now from information from the Air Force that Boeing did not look at the disc information given to them, but Airbus did. I want an investigation of what Airbus did with that information, and did that allow them to make an adjustment for the best and final offer? Did it give them an unfair advantage in the bidding process? If so, the Air Force should stop this process and make sure that there is a fair and balanced process for awarding the tanker (contract).
The Air Force is expected to award the $35 billion tanker contract in March to Boeing's NewGen tanker or EADS North America's KC-45 tanker. Representatives from EADS North America and the Air Force declined to respond to Cantwell's comments Thursday.
Cantwell said she sent a letter Thursday to Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman Carl Levin, D-Mich., outlining her questions in advance of a hearing next week on the disclosure. Cantwell said she has questions about what steps the Air Force took to ensure EADS did not gain an unfair competitive advantage from the Boeing data, what the Air Force's forensic analysis of the discs sent to both companies showed, whether each company's actions followed Air Force ethics rules, standards and practices, whether the released compromised the part of the bidding process that includes price adjustments and, if so, what that means for the competition.
What if she doesn't get her questions answered?
"And the last time we asked tough questions about this process, the GAO was involved and said you have to answer these questions," Cantwell said, referring to the U.S. Government Accountability Office's finding of serious flaws in the Air Force's previous attempt to award the tanker contract. The Air Force chose the tanker proposed by a previous team of Northrop Grumman and EADS, but the GAO report led Defense Secretary Robert Gates to throw out that award and restart the competition.
Congress members have previously threatened to cut off tanker funding if the Air Force did not address their concerns that the EADS tanker could benefit from illegal European subsidies. Asked whether that's an option she'd consider if her data disclosure questions weren't answered, Cantwell said: "I certainly would be looking for every opportunity to make sure that this was a fair process. And if that included legislative remedies, we'd be looking for them."
Cantwell said she's also concerned about subsidies, which Air Force and Pentagon officials have repeatedly refused to consider.
The next move on that "will be probably a discussion on the floor of the Senate," Cantwell said. "You've basically allowed for subsidies to play a vital role in allowing somebody to have a cheaper bid, and I think that's wrong."
Cantwell said she did not think the Republican takeover of the House of Representatives would impact the tanker process. Boeing has powerful Democratic supporters, including Washington's Norm Dicks, who lost the chairmanship of the House Defense Appropriations Subcommittee with the changeover.
But many Republicans also care about issues of American manufacturing and fairness, Cantwell said, "and you'll see that in the next coming weeks."
http://blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace/archives/236435.asp
And since it is a Washington State article, the comments that go with it are pretty funny, some of them:
Quote:
Ha, a better question to post to the USAF would be why they want to buy a tanker from Airbus[t] that drops it's refueling system into the ocean and damages planes in the process. Sounds like a crappy aircraft to me. Rather than keeping our planes in action through refueling, it would be helping the enemy by taking them out instead. Way to go Airbutts
Just what we need more interference from a novice aeronautical politician intent on preserving personal stature over quality equipment.
Lets face it anyone wondering around a Boeing production facility on a PR mission is hardly going to extol the antique nature of the 767 product, rebuked by the civil aviation sector this aircraft represents everthing Boeing wants and nothing the USAF requires, it is well and truly dead in the face of a superior European product.
It exists but only in Powerpoint.
If Boeing say they didn't look at the disc they received, we have to believe them. They are proud Americans. They never lie and never cheat.
I am amazed at the anti-Boeing European loving people who think it is to America's benfit to reduce our national manufacturing capability. As a retired KC-10/KC-135 Aerial Refueling Operator (Boom Operator), my question is how did EADS get the U.S. propriety information to make the EADS boom.....this is where the investigation should be.... who gave them the know how, besides reverse engineering the French 135 boom and the ex-USAF boom operators who work for EADS should be thinking of possible legal charges.....
The french planes have rear-view cameras to monitor the enemy.
nope they have sensors that when enemy radar is detected the plane begins trailing white "we surrender" smoke
If Boeing say they didn't look at the disc they received, we have to believe them. They are proud Americans. They never lie and never cheat.
you're an idiot, comes from parents who were idiots, please do not procreate. forensic analysis has determined that boeing DID NOT open any files, however forensic evidence did reveal that eads did open and examine files
#655738 - You think no ancient Boeing tanker has ever broken a boom? Oh wait, didn't one of the Japanese tankers break one just after (it's much delayed) delivery?
Epic FAIL.
Just a few.
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Reply #32 -
Jan 23
rd
, 2011 at 5:10am
C
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Brilliant! I like the comments suggesting that no one outside the USA could be intelligent enough to design something without copying an American!
Mind you, I suspect some of these people would lack the brain power to be able to comprehend the fact the Airbus isn't just a French company. In fact, if you told them the wings were made in the volatile region of the United Kingdom known as Wales, they'd never get on an Airbus again...
Quote:
The french planes have rear-view cameras to monitor the enemy.
Lol, well I've never heard them being called the "enemy", but some fast jet pilots can make you nervous when they're behind a hose.
As an aside, do the drogue/MPRS equipped KC-135s have a camera?
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Reply #33 -
Jan 23
rd
, 2011 at 10:25am
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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C wrote
on Jan 23
rd
, 2011 at 5:10am:
As an aside, do the drogue/MPRS equipped KC-135s have a camera?
No US Tanker has them, the A330MRTT would have been the first, up until Boeing Said the "Next Gen Tanker" would offer it too like the A330.
And I told my Boss, who worked the KC-135A/B/C/E, about the comments on the boom, and he laughed! He said they have been ripping booms off the KC-135 since Vietnam, nothing has changed. If it is gonna brake, it will brake there is nothing you can do about it.
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Reply #34 -
Jan 23
rd
, 2011 at 1:02pm
C
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OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote
on Jan 23
rd
, 2011 at 10:25am:
No US Tanker has them, the A330MRTT would have been the first, up until Boeing Said the "Next Gen Tanker" would offer it too like the A330.
I did wonder, seeing of course they all have a boom op. I've been down the back of a 135 once to the operators "bed" type thing, but didn't think to see what view, if any, the crew have of the hoses.
For us, the camera is a must.
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Reply #35 -
Jan 23
rd
, 2011 at 2:18pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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Yeah the KC-135 you lay flat and guide the plane in with the lights, then fly the boom in. Unless it has the basket on the boom for Navy/Coalition Fighters, then it is just a modified procedure.
The KC-10, was the first with the fly-by-wire boom, that MD came up with, and uses a regular seat for the boomer, but has the basket stode next to the boom in the fuselage on all KC-10's, but can be fitted with the extra 2 prior to take off.
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Reply #36 -
Jan 23
rd
, 2011 at 5:31pm
C
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I suppose a fair number of the USAF hoses are still just BDA as opposed to pods, and hence not having means of seeing the wing hoses.
Personally, it's a good thing to be able to see that the bloke/lady in their aeroplane, who's about to deliberately fly it into your aeroplane, is fairly competent - although sometimes you wish you weren't able to watch. Certainly it's a very valid safety feature.
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Reply #37 -
Jan 26
th
, 2011 at 5:04am
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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C wrote
on Jan 23
rd
, 2011 at 5:31pm:
I suppose a fair number of the USAF hoses are still just BDA as opposed to pods, and hence not having means of seeing the wing hoses.
Personally, it's a good thing to be able to see that the bloke/lady in their aeroplane, who's about to deliberately fly it into your aeroplane, is fairly competent - although sometimes you wish you weren't able to watch. Certainly it's a very valid safety feature.
They extend the baskets out all the way past the tail, then the boomer just watches them come in, and I believe he is on the radio too to talk if need be.
Quote:
Caldwell: Battle over Air Force tanker nearing conclusion
Bert Caldwell The Spokesman-Review
The U.S. Air Force may make its final final decision on the next generation of tanker as soon as next month.
But Congress may have the final final final word.
Defense work seldom gets awarded purely on its merits. Too much money is on the table, and too many jobs, which partly explains why this is the third go-round for a contract that could be worth $35 billion, and as many as 50,000 jobs to the winner and its suppliers.
Defense Secretary Robert Gates has taken a hard line on superfluous defense projects, but no one argues that tankers President Dwight Eisenhower would recognize do not need replacing.
So Boeing Co. and the European Aeronautic Defense & Space Co., EADS, have all their chips in. And because the two companies were inadvertently – or not – sent information on each other’s proposal, they know the hand the other is holding.
It does not look good for Boeing.
Air Force criteria apparently favor the larger EADS KC-45 over Boeing’s KC-767. A bigger plane can carry more fuel, supplies or personnel. But it will also require construction of new aprons and hangars, significantly increasing indirect costs.
This week, the Senate Armed Forces Committee will hold a hearing on the information swap, which Sen. Maria Cantwell, D-Wash., alleges compromised fair-competition regulations. She says the Air Force has glossed over the problem.
“Congress may not be as indifferent as the Air Force when so many taxpayer dollars and domestic jobs are at stake,” she wrote Sen. Carl Levin, the committee chairman, last week.
That sentence touches on the real nub: EADS will manufacture its tanker air frame, based on the Airbus A-330, in Europe. The plane will be modified for tanker use at a proposed plant in Mobile, Ala.
The KC-767 will roll off the line in Everett, where dwindling demand for the commercial version could mean thousands of layoffs.
And with EADS anxious to crack the U.S. defense market, suspicions are the company will lowball its bid. Boeing officials say they will not bid the company into a loss on the contract.
Boeing supporters claim EADS/Airbus has a cost advantage solely because European governments have contributed an estimated $20 billion to Airbus aircraft development efforts over the years. Boeing has received about $3 billion in assistance, some of that from Washington state.
Those figures are taken from World Trade Organization findings that, coincidentally, will be finalizing next month. Boeing partisans have argued mightily that the assistance given Airbus, and its foreign birth, should figure in Air Force decision-making.
Cantwell, Sen. Patty Murray, D-Wash., and former Sen. Sam Brownback, R-Kan., tried unsuccessfully to get an amendment with that requirement attached to the defense appropriations act. But the House of Representatives in December overwhelmingly supported a similar measure.
The brass knuckles will come out when the Air Force makes its choice.
Much as a win for Boeing would be a win for Washington, a choice of the EADS plane would be a boost for Spokane. Fairchild Air Force Base was among 10 the Air Force used to assess the capabilities of both airplanes. If the KC-45 is selected, the base will need major upgrades to accommodate the bigger birds.
Boeing did get one bit of good news last week. The boom on an EADS tanker broke and fell into the Atlantic Ocean during a refueling mission. Oops.
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2011/jan/23/battle-over-air-force-tanker-nearin...
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Reply #38 -
Jan 26
th
, 2011 at 9:02am
C
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OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote
on Jan 26
th
, 2011 at 5:04am:
They extend the baskets out all the way past the tail, then the boomer just watches them come in, and I believe he is on the radio too to talk if need be.
The hoses aren't that long. That's the scary part!
I've just had a look at a pic of a 135 with MPRS, and you're right, I suspect the boomer can see them from his position. I suspect on the '330 he might struggle with the extra fuselage length!
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Reply #39 -
Jan 26
th
, 2011 at 12:04pm
Flying Trucker
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Good afternoon all...
Must not forget these aircraft which were or are in United States Military service:
-DeHavilland of Canada DHC-2....Beaver....American Military U6A & U6B...won United States battle honours...not sure how many aircraft can claim that...
-DeHavilland of Canada DHC-3...Otter....American Military UC-1 & U-1B
-DeHavilland of Canada DHC-4...Caribou...American Military CV-2 & C-7
-DeHavilland of Canada DHC-6...Twin Otter...American Military UV-18A & UV-18B
-DeHavilland of Canada DHC-7....Dash 7...American Military EO-5C
-DeHavilland of Canada DHC-8....Dash 8...American Military E9A
Just to name a few...
Cheers...Happy Landings...Doug
Cheers...Happy Landings...Doug
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Reply #40 -
Jan 26
th
, 2011 at 3:43pm
DaveSims
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Flying Trucker wrote
on Jan 26
th
, 2011 at 12:04pm:
Good afternoon all...
Must not forget these aircraft which were or are in United States Military service:
-DeHavilland of Canada DHC-2....Beaver....American Military U6A & U6B...won United States battle honours...not sure how many aircraft can claim that...
-DeHavilland of Canada DHC-3...Otter....American Military UC-1 & U-1B
-DeHavilland of Canada DHC-4...Caribou...American Military CV-2 & C-7
-DeHavilland of Canada DHC-6...Twin Otter...American Military UV-18A & UV-18B
-DeHavilland of Canada DHC-7....Dash 7...American Military EO-5C
-DeHavilland of Canada DHC-8....Dash 8...American Military E9A
Just to name a few...
Cheers...Happy Landings...Doug
Even on that note:
Fokker D.VII
Fokker D.VIII
Fokker C-27 (F27)
Short C-23
AV-8 Harrier
Actually if you research, you will find quite a few Fokker's pre WW2 in the US inventory. And I know the Harrier is technically a McDonnell Douglas, but who developed, and I'm sure profited from the aircraft, British Aerospace.
I have mixed emotions about US military hardware being built out of country. However there are two things I do know, no Boeing is not 100% American made, many parts come from overseas, and I want our troops to have the most capable equipment available, which sure looks like an Airbus to me. And I do not like Airbus on most fronts.
Dave
www.flymcw.com
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Reply #41 -
Jan 26
th
, 2011 at 6:38pm
C
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Earth
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Not to mention the backbone of the USAAF photo recce fleet in Europe in WW2, the Spitfire and Mosquito.
Hurricanes even flew in USAAF markings for the invasion of north Africa during operation torch, albeit they were RAF machines, as it was thought that the "spams/yanks" may not have been familiar with their markings as it was their first venture east (on a national scale, as of course plenty had fought before for the allies before Pearl Harbor)!
So yellow rimmed blue/white stars it was.
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Reply #42 -
Jan 26
th
, 2011 at 7:30pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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Yeah but the thing is most people don"t remember those, and Congress Sure as hell don't remember those.
But the best example to use that the US Congress members would remember is the British Designed AV-8 Harrier. USMC would never have been able to carry out their missions through out the last 20-30 years with out it. Aside from the UK, the USMC had the other largest fleet of Jump Jets, granted they were built under McDonald Douglass/Boeing.
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Reply #43 -
Jan 27
th
, 2011 at 5:34am
C
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Posts: 13144
OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote
on Jan 26
th
, 2011 at 7:30pm:
Yeah but the thing is most people don"t remember those, and Congress Sure as hell don't remember those.
I'm sure some of them struggle to remember past last week!
Quote:
But the best example to use that the US Congress members would remember is the British Designed AV-8 Harrier. USMC would never have been able to carry out their missions through out the last 20-30 years with out it. Aside from the UK, the USMC had the other largest fleet of Jump Jets, granted they were built under McDonald Douglass/Boeing.
Much as the original Harrier/AV-8A was very much a British design, the AV-8B was very much driven by the USA, and I suspect was at least a 50:50 development, if not more on the US side.
We were just lucky enough to have some clever chaps at the end of the 50s who between them produced both a workable VTOL engine, and an airframe it could go into. On of them in his earlier career designed the Hurricane, and another, again 20 years earlier, was rather responsible for turning the RR Merlin into one of the best piston engines ever made.
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Reply #44 -
Jan 28
th
, 2011 at 11:52am
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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Quote:
EADS had Boeing tanker data file open for three minute
An EADS North America employee had a file showing Boeing aerial refueling tanker information open for about three minutes, while Boeing never opened a file with EADS data, a Pentagon expert testified Thursday.
The Air Force accidentally sent of information about the Boeing and EADS bids to the other bidders in November. After learning that EADS opened a file and saw one screen of information, the Air Force re-sent that information to both companies in an effort to level the playing field.
The Senate Armed Services committee held a hearing on the incident Thursday. After the hearing, Sen. Maria Cantwell, D-Wash., announced that she and six other senators, had called for a Pentagon inspector general investigation.
"EADS now has an unfair competitive advantage to adjust its bid to undercut Boeing," Cantwell contended in a news release.
Responding to that call, EADS North America Chairman Ralph Crosby, Jr., said: "We would welcome an investigation by the DoD Inspector General -- if such an investigation does not delay the decision on acquisition of new tankers.
"Scandal and protest have kept this badly needed system out of the hands of our service men and women long enough. We are interested in illuminating unambiguous facts, not in a tactic for delaying the decision process."
All the best,
Steven Shirley, executive director of the Department of Defense Cyber Crime Center, which investigated the incident, said a forensic analysis showed only one page was shown, for about three minutes, and found no evidence refuting EADS' sworn statement that the employee only actually viewed the screen for about 15 seconds.
In written testimony to the committee, EADS North America Chief Executive Officer Sean O'Keefe contradicted Shirley's account somewhat, writing: "The total time that the file was open was less than 15 seconds."
O'Keefe said the person who saw the data was "assigned to administrative duties separate from the KC-45 (tanker) program" until after the end of EADS and Air Force investigations.
"Clearly, it would have been preferable that the data disclosure by the U.S. Air Force had not happened. However, after a full and thorough review of EADS North America's actions, I can tell you with high confidence that our actions following awareness of the disclosure were timely, responsible and appropriate," O'Keefe wrote.
"Unfortunately, it appears that some are attempting to exploit the U.S. Air Force's inadvertent error by speculating on events which are not in evidence," he added. "Most disconcerting is the false assertion that EADS North America held for a month the competitor data incorrectly sent to us. I can assure the Committee that this allegation is simply untrue and is substantively contradicted by the government's investigation and detailed forensic analysis."
Cantwell mentioned the one-month figure earlier this month.
In his testimony, Boeing Defense, Space and Security President and Chief Executive Officer Dennis Muilenburg gently dug into EADS, writing:
Boeing's behavior in this instance is emblematic of our conduct throughout this competition. We have competed fairly and aggressively. We have not sought extensions of time, we have complied with every deadline, and we have followed the strictures and procedures established by the Air Force acquisition authority to the letter.
EADS did ask for, and get, an extension of the original tanker bid deadline so it could prepare its own bid after former tanker partner Northrop Grumman pulled out of the competition. Here is the full testimony from O'Keefe and Muilenburg.
The EADS employee saw summary information about the Air Force's interim Integrated Fleet Air Refueling Assessment of the Boeing NewGen Tanker, Maj. Gen. Wendy M. Masiello, Air Force program executive officer for combat and mission support, said Thursday. The assessment, known by its acronym, IFARA, looks at the plane's ability to meet requirements in several war-fighting scenarios.
So what difference would this information make? IFARA is the basis for one of two adjustments that the Air Force will make to bid prices before choosing a winner. (The other is for life-cycle costs.)
So having this information about the competitor could help a company adjust its bid to end up with a better final price.
The Air Force argues it made up for any such advantage by ensuring that both companies had the same information. But Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman Carl Levin, D-Mich., noted that the information could potentially help one company more than the other.
"The attempt to level the playing field is clear," he said. "Whether it succeeds or not is a different issue."
Arizona Sen. John McCain, the committee's senior Republican, started out by saying the hearing and an associated release of documents about the foul up, should have waited until after the Air Force's selection of a winner -- expected in the next month or two.
The extent to which the incident might have impacted the contest "seems to be to be an issue more appropriately addressed after the competition has run its course and a winner has been announced," he said.
Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Ala., also questioned the motivation behind the hearing.
"On the eve of this final decision, we've got people with political interests and local interests trying to destabilize the process," he said.
Sessions also noted that either company could protest at any time, but neither has so far. EADS would assemble its tanker in Mobile, Ala.
An eventual Boeing protest may be what Thursday's hearing was about, according to Sen. Roger Wicker, R-Miss.
"There are some people in this town who believe that the company that they favor may be about to lose a bid again, as they did in 2008, and a foundation is being laid for howls of protest," he said, referring to the Air Force's previous awarding of the tanker contract to a Northrop Grumman-EADS team. Defense Secretary Robert Gates threw out that result and launched a new competition after congressional auditors found serious flaws in the process.
But fellow Republican Lindsey Graham, of South Carolina, disagreed, saying: "I think this is something we should be looking at. It's something we should be talking about."
Boeing is building its second 787 Dreamliner assembly line in North Charleston, S.C. Notably, Republican committee member Mark Kirk, from Boeing's headquarters state of Illinois, didn't take part in the hearing.
Graham and Sen. Claire McCaskill, D-Mo., also brought up the Air Force's refusal to account in the competition for illegal subsidies that a World Trade Organization panel found EADS subsidiary Airbus to have received, including for the A330 aircraft, which is the basis for EADS North America's KC-45 tanker.
"What if this company was owned by China," she asked. "Would we take that into consideration?"
Invoking criticisms of Democrats from the right, McCaskill said: "I've heard a lot of lectures over the past year about (socialism). ... I don't think the Department of Defense should treat companies equally if one is subsidized by a foreign government."
Wicker noted that a separate panel found that Boeing also received illegal subsidies.
After the hearing, Sens. Cantwell, Graham, Patty Murray, D-Wash, Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., Richard Durbin, D-Ill., and Jerry Moran and Pat Roberts, R-Kan., signed onto a letter calling on Pentagon Inspector General Gordon Heddell to investigate the impact of the incident on the fairness and lawfulness of the competition.
"At a minimum, we know that the IFARA score was compromised," they wrote. "That is why it is critical that your investigation determine whether the data breach compromises the IFARA adjustment to price, and more broadly, whether the data breach creates an unfair competitive advantage for the bidder that looked at the other bidder's proprietary data."
http://blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace/archives/237182.asp
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Reply #45 -
Jan 28
th
, 2011 at 11:58am
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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Quote:
Bipartisan Senate Letter Urges KC-X Investigation
Seven senators from both parties called on the Pentagon’s Inspector General today, urging him initiate and investigation into what harm might have been done when Air Force officials mistakenly handed Boeing and EADS NA each other’s data about the KC-X tanker competition.
Sens. Maria Cantwell (D-Wash.), Patty Murray (D-Wash.), Jerry Moran (R-Kansas), Charles Schumer (D-NY), Lindsey Graham (R-SC), Richard Durbin (D-Ill.), and Pat Roberts (R-Kansas) signed the letter.
“At a minimum, we know that the IFARA [Integrated Fleet Aerial Refueling Assessment] score was compromised. That is why it is critical that your investigation determine whether the data breach compromises the IFARA adjustment to price, and more broadly, whether the data breach creates an unfair competitive advantage for the bidder that looked at the other bidder’s proprietary,” they wrote to Inspector General Gordon Heddell. “We are requesting an investigation because we want to make sure the Procurement Integrity Act, Federal Acquisition Regulations (FAR), and ethics rules have not been violated.”
“Today’s hearing did not get at the core of the problem,” Cantwell said. “The tanker competition is a price competition, and EADS saw Boeing’s proprietary data. What happened here is that EADS looked at Boeing’s IFARA score, which is used by the Air Force to adjust a bidder’s initially proposed price. EADS now has an unfair competitive advantage to adjust its bid to undercut Boeing.
The day after the hearing, EADS NA issued this statement, welcoming an investigation: “We would welcome an investigation by the DoD Inspector General—if such an investigation does not delay the decision on acquisition of new tankers. Scandal and protest have kept this badly needed system out of the hands of our service men and women long enough. We are interested in illuminating unambiguous facts, not in a tactic for delaying the decision process.” That was issued under the rubric of Ralph Crosby, the company’s chairman of the board.
The senators did not mention in their letter that the Air Force ensured both sides knew what data the other side had received, nor that each company could alter their bids should they wish to do so after having seen that data. Instead, they said that it took the Air Force three weeks to implement the “remedy” for the data swap goof.
Cantwell and the others — most of whom have important Boeing plants in their states — acted after this morning’s Senate Armed Services Committee hearing during which very little new light was shed on the consequences of the data swap. Of course, some close observers of the competition argued that little came out of today’s hearing because the incident has had few consequences beyond scaring EADS that it might have given Boeing another reason to protest and worrying Boeing that its bid might well be weaker than it had thought.
But Cantwell and her colleagues put it this way in her press statement: “The two witnesses present could not even tell the Committee how the leaked IFARA score may impact the overall Air Force competition.”
Most of the hearing constituted restatements of familiar themes. Sen. Clair McCaskill of Missouri, who criticized the tanker program as “a case study in incompetence,” repeated familiar arguments that any company that receives foreign subsidies should have that fact taken into account when it competes for a contract. The World Trade Organization, of course, has found that EADS has received illegal subsidies. It has also found in a preliminary ruling that Boeing illegally received subsidies. McCaskill did not mention the fact that Boeing has received American subsidies.
One of the fun moments during the hearing came when Sen. John McCain told SASC Chairman Sen. Carl Levin today that the KC-X hearing should not have occurred, especially so close to the contract award.
McCain was joined in his criticism by several other Republican senators.
Finally, another bill was introduced to influence the tanker competition, this one by the Cantwell and Sen. Jerry Moran, Republican of Kansas. This bill, the Defense Level Playing Field Act (S.189), would require the Pentagon take into consideration “illegal foreign subsidies in the tanker competition that unfairly place American workers at a competitive disadvantage.” No mention of taking into consideration illegal American subsidies, because, of course, they would not hurt American workers — or Boeing.
http://www.dodbuzz.com/2011/01/27/bipartisan-senate-letter-urges-kc-x-investigat...
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Reply #46 -
Feb 1
st
, 2011 at 11:06pm
The Ruptured Duck
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Bob Hoover was shot down in a spitfire off the southern french coast
"If you would not be forgotten, as soon as you are dead and rotten, either write things worth reading, or do things worth the writing" -Ben Franklin&&&&"Man must rise above the Earth to the top of the atmosphere and beyond, for only thus will he fully understand the world in which he lives." - Socrates&&&&" Flying is a religion. A religion that asymilates all who get a taste of it." - Me&&&&"Make the most out of yourself, for that is all there is of you"- Ralf Waldo Emerson&&
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Reply #47 -
Feb 3
rd
, 2011 at 6:55am
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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Quote:
Boeing to revise bid for US military tanker deal
WASHINGTON — Boeing said Tuesday it would submit a new, "final" bid for a $35 billion contract to supply the US military with 179 aerial refueling tankers, as it tries to beat European rival Airbus.
A Boeing spokesman said the firm and US Air Force officials held talks Monday to discuss the company's proposal and revisions would follow.
"This was our last opportunity to get feedback from the Air Force on our proposal before the end of the tanker competition," Bill Barksdale said in a company blog post.
"Based on this feedback, we're now making final adjustments to our bid, which we will provide February 11 to the Air Force," he said.
The revised final proposal "will represent our best and final offer to the Air Force -- one that matches decades of tanker experience and the best state-of-the-art technology with a proven Boeing airframe to best fulfill the Air Force's requirements."
Analysts expect the Air Force to announce its decision in March on the contract to replace 179 tankers from an aging fleet of Boeing KC-135s from the 1950s.
"As the competition comes down to the wire, our tanker team is focused on one thing: providing the Air Force with the most capable tanker at the lowest cost to the taxpayer," Barksdale said.
This will be the third time in nearly a decade the Air Force has tried to secure a contract for the planes.
At first awarded to Boeing in 2003, the Pentagon was forced to cancel the contract by Congress due to irregularities in the process.
In 2008, EADS (European Aeronautic Defence and Space), the parent of Airbus, and US partner Northrop Grumman won the bid, but the decision was withdrawn after the congressional watchdog, the Government Accountability Office, upheld Boeing's objections.
The lucrative tanker contract has deep political implications, with lawmakers representing states such as Washington, where Boeing makes planes, and Alabama, where EADS would have an assembly plant, vying for jobs.
EADS is competing this time for the military contract without a main partner, but with support from a number of US equipment makers.
An EADS North America spokesman told AFP that the firm had received the same offer and opportunity from the Air Force to submit a final proposal revision "if we choose to," but he declined to comment on whether EADS would.
The two rivals are proposing a militarized version of their commercial aircraft.
Boeing is offering the KC-767, based on its long-haul 767 plane that entered service in 1982. Dubbed the "NextGen Tanker," the plane is smaller than the Airbus plane and is to be assembled in Everett, Washington, and equipped in Wichita, Kansas.
Boeing says its plane will save $10 billion in fuel over 40 years of service and entail maintenance costs that will be 15 percent to 20 percent lower than those of the plane built by France-based Airbus.
The EADS KC-45 is based on the long-haul Airbus 330, in service since 1993. EADS says it has 31 percent more capacity and a longer range than the KC-767.
But the KC-45, bigger than its rival, could have higher fuel costs and require the construction of new hangars. It would be assembled in Mobile, Alabama.
EADS says the contract would create 48,000 US jobs, slightly below the 50,000 forecast by Boeing.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iK0673fG0hYt7j-5kdkl2VI4_4mA?...
;
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Reply #48 -
Feb 18
th
, 2011 at 1:21pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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Quote:
Murray, Cantwell: Tanker contract salvation for American jobs
Posted by Kyung M. Song
WASHINGTON -- When the U.S. Air Force at last reveals the winner of a $40 billion contract for aerial refueling tankers, it won't merely mark a turning point in one of the more tortuous chapters in Pentagon procurement history.
It also would help determine the fate of the American economy, its industrial base and national security.
That's according to a quintet of senators from three states who are pushing hard for a victory by Boeing.
During a press conference at the U.S. Capitol on Thursday, Sen. Patty Murray led an argument by a bipartisan group of lawmakers that awarding the tanker deal to the European parent of Airbus would deprive Americans of much-needed jobs.
Boeing has claimed that if the tankers are built with a military version of its 767 jetliner, it would support 50,000 U.S. jobs, including 11,000 in Washington state. Airbus parent EADS counters that a win for the larger Airbus A330 tanker would support 48,000 American jobs. Airbus plans to assemble the tankers in Mobile, Ala., with component parts made in Europe.
"If we are going to win the future, we are going to need to win this contract," Murray said. "We are doing this to remind the administration and the country what's at stake."
Underscoring that message, the press conference room was festooned with signs proclaiming "American jobs on the line" and "Support American aerospace."
Also appearing at the event were Sens. Maria Cantwell of Washington and Pat Roberts and Jerry Moran, both Republicans of Kansas, a major Boeing manufacturing center. A fifth senator, Debbie Stabenow, is from Michigan, where Boeing currently employs 22 people but hopes to gain 450 more jobs with a tanker contract.
The Air Force has been trying for a decade to replace its aging KC-135 refueling aircraft. Its 2001 decision to lease 100 tankers from Boeing was scotched after revelations that the company's chief financial officer offered jobs to a Pentagon acquisitions officer and her family. A subsequent tanker award to Northrop-EADS was successfully challenged by Boeing on grounds that the competition was flawed.
Further roiling the process, the World Trade Organization has recently ruled that Airbus -- and to a lesser degree, Boeing -- has benefited from billions of dollars in illegal government subsidies. Boeing partisans on Capitol Hill have argued for penalizing EADS, something the Pentagon has refused repeatedly.
The decision for this third round is expected to hinge on price. Aerospace analysts have speculated that EADS likely would prevail on that score. The Air Force is expected to name the winner shortly.
Asked if all the political interference might further delay the Air Force from upgrading its equipment, Moran said that's why the Pentagon must ensure that its latest choice of a winner "has to be absolutely, above-board correct."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politicsnorthwest/2014254392_murraycantwel...
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Reply #49 -
Feb 18
th
, 2011 at 1:23pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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Quote:
Pro-Boeing lawmakers tie tanker decision to job-creation goals
By John T. Bennett - 02/17/11 04:25 PM ET
A Boeing win "would be a big step forward in our efforts to win the future,” Sen. Patty Murray said.
If President Obama really intends to “win the future,” his administration should hand a $35 billion Air Force tanker contract to Boeing, several lawmakers said on Thursday.
“A win for the Boeing tanker … would be a big step forward in our efforts to win the future,” Sen. Patty Murray (D-Wash.) said during a press briefing. “American jobs, our industrial base and economic growth is on the line.”
The pro-Boeing lawmaker’s use of the phrase “win the future” — employed first by Obama in last month’s State of the Union address — is aimed at forcing the administration to use the Air Force’s KC-X tanker competition as a way of doing so.
“Job creation in the United States should start with the procurement of a Boeing tanker,” said Sen. Pat Roberts (R-Kan.).
The lawmakers made their pitch standing in front of signs and a backdrop featuring these phrases: “American Jobs,” “American jobs on the line,” and “Supporting American Jobs.”
Their not-so-subtle message came just weeks before the Air Force is slated to choose either Boeing’s 767-based tanker or one being offered by EADS, based on an A330 plane. The winner will build 179 flying gas stations for the air service — and deal a major blow to its chief rival.
Boeing and its congressional allies say if the Chicago-based firm wins, it would bring 50,000 jobs to 40 states. An EADS win would support 48,000 U.S. jobs.
The Boeing proponents also hit EADS on aircraft subsidies. The World Trade Organization (WTO) recently ruled both firms have unjustly received government funds; EADS has gotten billions more, according to the WTO.
Roberts said he “doesn’t understand” why Pentagon officials contend they cannot factor in the impact of illegal government subsidies as they pick a winning plane.
Boeing and its congressional allies are concerned the European firm will be able to drastically underbid Boeing and win the contract — primarily because of its subsidies advantage.
Defense officials say there are no laws or federal acquisition regulations that call for factoring into major acquisition decisions things such as how subsidies might influence a bidder’s price.
“Unlike other nations, the U.S. almost never makes the economic impact of weapons decisions a factor in source selection,” said Loren Thompson, a defense consultant and analyst at the Lexington Institute. “Industrial base concerns and economic impacts are not part of the Pentagon's calculus.
“So even though the Obama administration is heavily focused on job creation and increasing exports, there is no sign that will influence the tanker outcome," Thompson said.
The combination of the Air Force’s price-shootout competition and the amount of subsidies EADS gets has many analysts predicting it will offer a smaller price tag and win the contract.
“The simple truth is that either one of these planes would make a fine tanker, so in the end the winner will be the team offering the lowest price,” Thompson said. “EADS will probably offer the lowest price because it has access to European government subsidies that can defray its costs.”
http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/144903-pro-boeing-lawmakers-tie-tanker-de...
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Reply #50 -
Feb 24
th
, 2011 at 9:01pm
The Ruptured Duck
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Wichita, KS
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Damn strait it went to Boeing.
"If you would not be forgotten, as soon as you are dead and rotten, either write things worth reading, or do things worth the writing" -Ben Franklin&&&&"Man must rise above the Earth to the top of the atmosphere and beyond, for only thus will he fully understand the world in which he lives." - Socrates&&&&" Flying is a religion. A religion that asymilates all who get a taste of it." - Me&&&&"Make the most out of yourself, for that is all there is of you"- Ralf Waldo Emerson&&
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Reply #51 -
Feb 25
th
, 2011 at 1:22am
BrandonF
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Quote:
Boeing to Build U.S. Air Force Tankers
Story by Marc Selinger
The U.S. Air Force announced Thursday that it has selected Boeing’s NewGen Tanker to be its new KC-46A air refueling jet.
The contract award, which follows a rigorous Air Force review of industry proposals, means Boeing will build the next-generation tanker that will replace 179 of the service’s 1950s-era KC-135s.
Boeing officials said they are honored by the selection and will meet the Air Force’s requirement to deliver the first 18 combat-ready aircraft by 2017.
“This contract award would not have been possible without the hundreds of Boeing employees across the entire company, and the thousands of our industry teammates, who remained laser-focused on our commitment to offer a solution that is first in capability and best in value,” said Dennis Muilenburg, president and CEO of Boeing Defense, Space & Security. “This award is also a tribute to the Air Force and Defense Department officials who worked so tirelessly to make this procurement process fair, ultimately resulting in the selection of the right plane for the mission. We look forward to working with our Air Force customer to deliver this much needed capability to the servicemen and women we are honored to serve.”
Tankers are critical to the U.S. armed forces, extending the range of fighters, bombers and other aircraft by transferring fuel to them in flight. The NewGen Tanker combines the latest, most advanced technology with the proven Boeing 767 commercial airplane.
The NewGen Tanker has a modern, digital flight deck based on the new Boeing 787 commercial airliner, and advanced defensive systems so it can safely operate close to the fight. It meets or exceeds all Air Force requirements.
Boeing will build the NewGen Tanker with a low-risk approach. It will use a trained and experienced U.S. work force at existing facilities in Washington state and Kansas, and an existing supplier network in more than 40 states.
Boeing has built and supported tankers for more than 60 years, and company employees said they are rolling up their sleeves to begin work on this newest tanker right away.
http://www.boeing.com/Features/2011/02/bds_tanker_announcement_02_24_11.html
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Reply #52 -
Feb 25
th
, 2011 at 4:44am
expat
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Quote:
Boeing will build the NewGen Tanker with a low-risk approach. It will use a trained and experienced U.S..
Low risk, read "cheap" and as for "trained", it is well known in the industry what sort of people Boeing employ. I feel rather sorry for the USAF, if they have to deal with the same product standard that Boeing are delivering to customers, they are screwed. We are giving back 4 aircraft to the leasing agent due to "quality problems"
Quote:
Boeing has built and supported tankers for more than 60 years, and company employees said they are rolling up their sleeves to begin work on this newest tanker right away.
OK, because we have always done it, we should always.......At the end of the day, it was a huge waist of money to make the the bidding look legitimate as Boeing was always going to get the contract. It will cost even more now too as the aircraft will be over budget and late because they always are especially if it is a military contract.
Matt
PETA
People Eating Tasty Animals.
B1 Boeing 737-800 and Dash8 Q-400
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Reply #53 -
Feb 25
th
, 2011 at 5:23am
C
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It was always going to eventually go to Boeing. A telling quote I saw from a US analyst last night went along the lines that a major consideration in awarding the contract to Boeing is that EADS do not get a plant in the USA which they could later use to build civil aircraft in competition with Boeing.
As for Boeing being the low risk approach, well, just don't ask the Italians about there KC-767!
As for experience, the A330 wasn't Airbus' first tanker, and the "corporate knowledge" of AAR in the companies that went to make up Airbus, and of course the AAR specialist companies have been around just as long as their US counterparts.
Oh well, I look forward to USAF tanker mates being envious for once...
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Reply #54 -
Feb 25
th
, 2011 at 11:56am
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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Boeing Wins Restaged U.S. Air Force KC-X Tanker
Feb 25, 2011
By Graham Warwick graham_warwick@aviationweek.com
Washington
Overturning its previous selection, the U.S. Air Force has selected Boeing to supply its KC-X replacement aerial-refueling tanker. The company has been awarded a $3.5 billion fixed-price incentive contract for development and delivery of the first 18 of a planned 179 767-based NewGen tankers to replace U.S. Air Force Boeing KC-135s.
EADS North America, with Northrop Grumman as prime contractor, won the first KC-X competition in February 2008 with the KC-45A, based on the Airbus A330-200 and similar to the KC-30 multi-role tanker/transport under development for Australia. The program was halted in September 2008 after a Boeing contract protest was upheld.
The Air Force restarted the KC-X competition in July 2010, issuing a new request for proposals (RFP) that simplified the requirements, clarified the selection criteria and reduced the financial risks to the winner. The changes were made in a bid to prevent the protests that derailed the first competition.
Boeing revised its approach after losing the first competition, dropping plans to develop an aircraft combining elements of several different 767 models and basing its “NewGen” tanker bid on a 767-200 equipped with an upgraded KC-10 refueling boom and 787 cockpit displays. The company said its price would be lower the second time around.
EADS North America stayed with its winning KC-45 design, but entered the new competition as prime contractor after Northrop withdrew from the role in March 2010, arguing the revised RFP “clearly favored a smaller tanker.” EADS’s decision to lead the bid itself likely allowed the company to reduce its proposal price.
The Air Force substantially revamped its source selection process after the Government Accountability Office (GAO) upheld Boeing’s protest over losing the 2008 competition to Northrop Grumman and EADS. The GAO ruled the Air Force did not properly assess the relative technical and operational merits of the rival tankers.
The new RFP simplified the specification to 372 mandatory pass/fail requirements the proposals had to meet to be considered. Proposed prices were then adjusted by the Pentagon based on assessments of operational effectiveness and ownership cost. Only if the resulting total evaluated prices were within 1% of each other would the Pentagon then consider each proposal’s ability to provide additional capabilities.
A long-shot bid from U.S. Aerospace, offering a variant of the Ukrainian Antonov An-70, was rejected after it missed the deadline to submit a proposal. The company’s protest was dismissed by the GAO in November 2010.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/awx/2011/02/24/awx_02_2...
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Reply #55 -
Feb 25
th
, 2011 at 11:59am
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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Boeing The Clear Winner Of KC-X: Pentagon
Feb 25, 2011
By Graham Warwick
Additional capabilities beyond the mandatory requirements were not a factor in the U.S. Air Force’s selection of Boeing’s 767-based tanker, now designated the KC-46A, as the service’s KC-X replacement aerial refueler, Pentagon officials said late Feb. 24.
EADS North America’s larger Airbus A330-based KC-45A, winner of the previous KC-X competition, was the losing bidder. Officials announced the Boeing award shortly after 5 p.m. EST in Washington.
Additional “non-mandatory” requirements were only to be considered if the evaluated prices of the two proposals were within 1% of each other. “Both offerors met the mandatory requirements, and there was a greater than 1% difference in total price, so non-mandatory capabilities were evaluated, but not used in the source-selection,” Air Force Secretary Michael Donley says.
“Boeing was the clear winner,” says Deputy Defense Secretary William Lynn. Under the revised source-selection criteria for the restaged KC-X competition, the price proposed by each bidder was adjusted by the Pentagon based on assessments of fleet mission effectiveness and lifecycle cost. Boeing argued its smaller 767-based tanker would consume substantially less fuel.
Boeing has been awarded a $3.5 billion fixed-price incentive contract for engineering and manufacturing development and delivery of the first 18 aircraft by 2017. When Northrop Grumman/EADS North America won an earlier KC-X competition in February 2008 it was awarded a $1.5 billion development contract, including four aircraft. “This was a completely different competition,” Donley says.
The Air Force restarted the KC-X competition in July 2010, issuing a new request for proposals (RFP) that simplified the requirements, clarified the selection criteria and reduced the financial risks to the winner. The changes were made in a bid to prevent the protests that derailed the first competition.
Boeing revised its approach after losing the first competition, dropping plans to develop an aircraft combining elements of several different 767 models and basing its “NewGen” tanker bid on a 767-200 equipped with an upgraded KC-10 refueling boom and 787 cockpit displays. The company said its price would be lower the second time around.
EADS North America stayed with its winning KC-45 design, but entered the new competition as prime contractor after Northrop withdrew from the role in March 2010, arguing the revised RFP “clearly favored a smaller tanker.” EADS’ decision to lead the bid itself likely allowed the company to reduce its proposal price.
Following the protests that dogged previous attempts to buy new tankers, as well as major criticism of the Air Force’s acquisition process, Donley says the seven-month source-selection has generated an “extensive official record” of the procedures followed. The bidders had a good understanding how the evaluation was conducted, he says, clearly anxious to avoid a protest or congressional challenge this time around.
Still, the latest competition was already marred by an embarrassing data-swap mishap last fall. In the Nov. 1, 2010, data release, Air Force officials sent files containing interim Integrated Fleet Aerial Refueling Assessment (Ifara) information to the wrong industry teams. However, in an effort to level the playing field, USAF then released to both contractors the cover sheets outlining each bidder’s performance in the Ifara model so both sides now officially have the same information (Aerospace DAILY, Feb. 11).
Senate Armed Services ranking Republican John McCain (Ariz.) let it be known right after the new award was announced that he awaits the Air Force’s award explanation. “I look forward to the Air Force demonstrating over the next few weeks how today’s decision was made fairly, openly and transparently,” says the senator, who helped derail Boeing’s last tanker award by exposing Air Force and Boeing malfeasance. “Only such a process will ensure that we obtain the most capable aerial refueling tanker at the most reasonable cost.”
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/asd/2011/02/25/01.xml&h...
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Reply #56 -
Mar 1
st
, 2011 at 2:53pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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Quote:
What The Boeing Tanker Win Means
Mar 1, 2011
By Amy Butler
The question sweeping the U.S. defense establishment is: How low did Boeing go?
Nearly three years after the U.S. Air Force’s selection of a Northrop Grumman/EADS A330-based tanker was found by government auditors to be flawed, the service has now chosen a Boeing design to replace its aging KC-135 refuelers. The Air Force based its selection largely on life-cycle price, and Deputy Defense Secretary William Lynn says: “Boeing was a clear winner.”
Three years ago, Boeing’s price was roughly $8 million more per aircraft than EADS’s and its development price was higher, according to sources close to the duel. Right up until the source selection announcement last week, many defense analysts suggested EADS would underbid Boeing in order to establish a final assembly facility for Airbus aircraft in the U.S.
“It is very fortunate for Boeing that they got a second chance because their first bid was not competitive,” according to one defense industry analyst. John Young, the Pentagon procurement chief during the last source selection, says, “The delay [in fielding the aircraft] is unfortunate and it clearly led both teams to sharpen their pencils.”
The Air Force’s decision to select Boeing will likely sidestep a protracted debate with Congress; Boeing supporters on Capitol Hill were poised to fight on the company’s behalf, further delaying USAF’s ability to field new tankers. Boeing’s lobby in Congress is far more substantial than EADS’s, which mainly relied on lawmakers from Alabama, where the A330 was to be built, for its political influence.
Dennis Muilenburg, president of Boeing Defense Space and Security, says this KC-X proposal had a “one Boeing” tactic, including a marriage of its culturally diverse defense and commercial businesses. “We worked this as one integrated Boeing company,” he says, adding that this approach drove efficiencies and value to for the most recent proposal.
During the 2008 competition, Boeing was criticized for seeking too much profit, thus allowing for a then-Northrop Grumman/EADS team to underbid. Also, Boeing Commercial Airplanes was seen as uncooperative with government cost estimators who wanted pricing details on the 767 platform.
Boeing protested, leading government auditors to find flaws in the source selection. During this period, company officials were aggressive, publicly taking their top customer to task. Internally, however, Boeing did some soul-searching. “That was always the fear—that [EADS] could underbid again,” says one former Boeing official. “This is the last major USAF acquisition program in the foreseeable future,” and this tanker work was viewed by some in the company as a must win.
The Pentagon’s decision—if it withstands a possible protest from EADS—could repair the chasm in the Boeing/Air Force relationship. It also shores up not only decades of business with its top defense customer as military budgets begin to flatten but also steady work for the waning 767 production line. Perhaps more critical to the commercial side of Boeing, the win stunts its European commercial rival’s efforts to establish a stateside manufacturing facility for airliners.
A win for either company would have been considered strategic—EADS was hoping to substantially boost its U.S. revenue and, perhaps more critical for the future of its commercial business, was its plan to build an A330 final assembly facility in Mobile, Ala. Since establishing its North American arm in 2003, EADS has had a goal of aggressively growing its U.S. business, and winning KC-X was the largest single step in that strategy. EADS is likely to pursue other Pentagon business, including some smaller helicopter programs, but nothing that would bring with it the scale and prestige of U.S. livery on an A330-based tanker.
EADS North America officials were due receive a debriefing Feb. 28on the loss. Board Chairman Ralph Crosby said his company would not protest the decision unless there is an obvious error on the part of Air Force acquisition. EADS North America officials “expressed disappointment and concern” about the decision. Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz says he hopes this decision means people will “stop talking about it” and get on with fielding a tanker on schedule. The original Boeing lease—offered in 2002—called for tankers to be delivered in 2006. Investigations into the deal found a bloated price, a situation that kicked off the more recent competitions for a supplier.
A loss for Boeing would have been a blow, ending its five-decade monopoly on the U.S. refueling business as the Air Force’s interest in C-17s continues to be nonexistent. Boeing’s other defense hurdles include a downturn in missile defense opportunities and a recent guided weapon loss to Raytheon.
Pressure is now likely to mount for EADS North America to consider a U.S. acquisition to expand its stateside market share. However, uncertainty over the company’s shareholding structure and an anticipated management shuffle next year could further hinder efforts to execute its U.S. expansion anytime soon.
Though EADS has beat Boeing in previous competitions in Australia, Saudi Arabia, the U.K. and the United Arab Emirates, other countries may now turn away from the A330-based option in favor of the 767 tanker, now called the KC-46A, to achieve commonality with the U.S. fleet.
And, with 767 business established for at least 13 lots through the U.S. buy, the platform, though older than its A330 rival, could continue to challenge Airbus in the freighter market.
Boeing’s $3.5 billion contract covers the development of the system, and purchase of 18 aircraft (including those for test purposes), which will be fielded by 2017. The buy of 179 aircraft is estimated at up to $30 billion, Lynn says. Ashton Carter, the Pentagon procurement chief, says the contract will be signed soon, allowing work to begin smartly. If a protest is launched, a stop-work order will likely be issued immediately in accordance with procurement rules.
The development contract is fixed-price, a shift from the previous competition. However the process does carry risk. Production and flight-testing will be concurrent, says Jean Chamberlin, vice president of Boeing’s tanker program; if technical problems arise in flight-test, fixes may have to be retrofitted onto the aircraft. Although a different design, Boeing experienced substantial flight-test problems with its Italian 767-based tanker.
Production is slated to start in 2015, two years ahead of the first delivery. Initial flight test is also slated for 2015, Chamberlin says. The Pentagon has restructured the Joint Strike Fighter program twice in as many years to reduce concurrency. Though this stealthy fighter is more complex than a modified 767, lessons from JSF and many past programs have pointed to the benefits of discovering flaws in flight-test prior to production.
At the suggestion that Boeing bought into the program, risking its ability to make profit, Muilenburg said “We submitted an aggressive but responsible bid.”
If the decision manages to withstand scrutiny, and neither Congress or the protest reveal problems in the procurement process, this will be a pivotal step forward for an Air Force procurement corps beleaguered by missteps. They began, largely, with the Air Force/Boeing plan nearly 10 years ago to lease 767-based tankers, and continued with a problem in a competition to buy combat search-and-rescue helicopters among others. Perhaps the KC-X decision could be a fitting end to a decade of paralysis for Air Force weapons buyers.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/awst/2011/02/28/AW_02_2...
As soon as Boeing releases the Specs on its Computer Generated Plane, I or someone will post them up. What I have read so far:
767-200, with 787 flight Deck, Modified KC-10 boom, and PW motors(AF had no choice in the motor selection like Japan and Italy did)
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Reply #57 -
Mar 1
st
, 2011 at 5:27pm
C
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Earth
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Quote:
A loss for Boeing would have been a blow, ending its five-decade monopoly on the U.S. refueling business
They keep on referring to this "50 year monopoly" Boeing has had in producing tankers for the USAF (the above article refers to the US refuelling business, which is even more tenuous - KC-130 etc...). Am I missing something, or did they not lose the competition eventually won by the USAF's most versatile tanker, the KC-10 (apparently with a 747 based design)!
Yeah, ok, in course Boeing acquired McDonnell Douglas, but to say they've had a 50 year monopoly is pushing the truth boat out a bit far!
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Reply #58 -
Mar 2
nd
, 2011 at 3:03am
expat
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C wrote
on Mar 1
st
, 2011 at 5:27pm:
Quote:
A loss for Boeing would have been a blow, ending its five-decade monopoly on the U.S. refueling business
They keep on referring to this "50 year monopoly" Boeing has had in producing tankers for the USAF (the above article refers to the US refuelling business, which is even more tenuous - KC-130 etc...). Am I missing something, or did they not lose the competition eventually won by the USAF's most versatile tanker, the KC-10 (apparently with a 747 based design)!
Yeah, ok, in course Boeing acquired McDonnell Douglas, but to say they've had a 50 year monopoly is pushing the truth boat out a bit far!
Boeing are desperate to win because they have a white elephant that will need a customer. By that I mean the 787. As they can't get certification for the aircraft due to static discharges in the fuel tanks (due to them being made of carbon....what do Airbus use and why
) they are trying to get the FAA to rewrite the rules so that an acceptable amount of static discharging can be allowed in the tanks as opposed to the zero limit we have now. Maybe TWA can advise on an acceptable limit!! If the 787 fails and customers start to with draw, who do you think will end up with a nice fleet of 787's. After all military aircraft do not require certification...........It would make a great tanker, range and capacity....
Matt
PETA
People Eating Tasty Animals.
B1 Boeing 737-800 and Dash8 Q-400
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Reply #59 -
Mar 2
nd
, 2011 at 3:12pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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C wrote
on Mar 1
st
, 2011 at 5:27pm:
Quote:
A loss for Boeing would have been a blow, ending its five-decade monopoly on the U.S. refueling business
They keep on referring to this "50 year monopoly" Boeing has had in producing tankers for the USAF (the above article refers to the US refuelling business, which is even more tenuous - KC-130 etc...). Am I missing something, or did they not lose the competition eventually won by the USAF's most versatile tanker, the KC-10 (apparently with a 747 based design)!
Yeah, ok, in course Boeing acquired McDonnell Douglas, but to say they've had a 50 year monopoly is pushing the truth boat out a bit far!
Yes they did loose out to the DC-10 with the KC-747, but as far as Boeing History in the tanker it goes with:
KB-29(late 40's),KB-50(1947), KC-97(1950), KC-135(1954-1965), KC-33(747 in 70's), KC-767(2005)
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Reply #60 -
Mar 2
nd
, 2011 at 4:47pm
C
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OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote
on Mar 2
nd
, 2011 at 3:12pm:
Yes they did loose out to the DC-10 with the KC-747, but as far as Boeing History in the tanker it goes with:
KB-29(late 40's),KB-50(1947), KC-97(1950), KC-135(1954-1965), KC-33(747 in 70's), KC-767(2005)
I think due to the previously mentioned takeover, they seem happy to add KC-10 as a Boeing product!
It's a bit like Airbus or BAE Systems claiming they built the VC10!
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Reply #61 -
Mar 3
rd
, 2011 at 6:11am
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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C wrote
on Mar 2
nd
, 2011 at 4:47pm:
OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote
on Mar 2
nd
, 2011 at 3:12pm:
Yes they did loose out to the DC-10 with the KC-747, but as far as Boeing History in the tanker it goes with:
KB-29(late 40's),KB-50(1947), KC-97(1950), KC-135(1954-1965), KC-33(747 in 70's), KC-767(2005)
I think due to the previously mentioned takeover, they seem happy to add KC-10 as a Boeing product!
It's a bit like Airbus or BAE Systems claiming they built the VC10!
I don't count that since they never developed the fly by wire boom that MD did, hell the KC-46"s boom is modified KC-10 boom.
Also Boeing was trying to take credit for the Airco DH-4B first refuel when they were campaigning for the tanker last year.
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Reply #62 -
Mar 5
th
, 2011 at 12:26pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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Quote:
Boeing KC-X Price Was 10 Percent Under EADS
Mar 4, 2011
By Amy Butler abutler@aviationweek.com
The decision by EADS North America not to protest its loss in the $35 billion U.S. Air Force KC-135 replacement refueling tanker contract competition is largely being based on its adjusted price, which came in a full 10% above that of rival Boeing, according to senior company officials.
EADS North America Chairman Ralph Crosby says the loss is a “dissatisfying outcome,” to a long competitive process. But ultimately the Air Force ran the KC-X competition “in accordance with all of the ground rules” and was “scrupulous” in detailing the factors leading to the decision.
The company spent roughly $45 million competing for this last round of the KC-X duel. EADS had won the contract in 2008 with then-prime contractor Northrop Grumman, but that source selection was scrapped after government auditors turned up procurement irregularities following a Boeing protest.
The Pentagon announced Boeing’s KC-46A won the most recent long-running duel on Feb. 24. EADS received debriefings Feb. 28-March 1. The company had until March 7 to protest its loss to the Government Accountability Office.
Boeing bid $20.6 billion versus the EADS price of $22.6 billion, according to data provided by the Air Force in those debriefings, says Crosby. These are the prices for developing and building 179 KC-135 replacements, including adjustments made by the Air Force in accordance with source-selection rules. The remainder of the $35 billion total contract value includes operational and maintenance expenses over the anticipated 40-year life expectancy of the tankers.
According to Crosby, EADS has derived some estimates of the Boeing offer, which have not yet been confirmed by the Air Force or Boeing. They include a $500 million adjustment in favor of Boeing for the fuel-usage advantage of the 767-based design. The Air Force also calculated a $300 million advantage to Boeing for military construction costs, Crosby says.
The service estimated an advantage for EADS worth $800 million for the A330-based tanker’s performance in various warfighting scenarios included in the Integrated Fleet Aerial Refueling Assessment modeling tool.
Though willing to congratulate Boeing on its win, Crosby questions Boeing’s ability to deliver on its promises under the terms of the fixed-price contract.
Jean Chamberlain, a senior tanker official for Boeing, last week acknowledged “concurrency” in its development program and production. First flight for the KC-46A is slated for 2015 with 18 aircraft delivered by 2017.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/awx/2011/03/04/awx_03_0...
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Reply #63 -
Mar 5
th
, 2011 at 12:32pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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So EADS lost out on price, not capability......Also of the 372 minimum requirements, #373 was removed when they rewrote the rules, and that was for a ground mapping radar like the Alaskan 737's use so they don't crash in inclement weather, to me that one seems kinda of important.
But I am still wanting to know where they got the fuel data from? They proved a few years back that a subsidiary company that Boeing owned, had put out misleading data stating that the B767 was 25% more fuel efficient then the A330, which turned out to not be true, and in fact the A330 was 6% better then the B767.
Also they never explained what "More Survivable" was, after all they fly high over the battle field during normal operation, not down low like a regular transporter dodging RPG's and SAM's. The only real threat is take offs and landing, and that is for every plane that fly's into the battle field from small VIP transports, to the massive Tristar and C-5.
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Reply #64 -
Mar 7
th
, 2011 at 9:11am
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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This is what the specs say in the new Air Force Times:
Length: 159ft 2inch
Wingspan: 156ft 1inch
Height: 52ft
Max Takeoff Weight: 400,000+
Max Fuel Capacity: 202,000+
Passengers: Up To 190
Cargo: Up to 19 pallets
Patients: Up to 97 Patients
Required Runway: 7,000ft with Max Load
Controls: Yoke, Hydrailic
Engines: Pratt & Whitney PW4062 52,000lbs Thrust
Flight Deck: 787 Based
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Reply #65 -
Apr 21
st
, 2011 at 1:46pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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Quote:
KC-46A Lacks Winglets Shown In Competition
As the Pentagon and Boeing begin to finally talk about the new KC-46A contract, one question is: where did the winglets go?
Until this week, Boeing widely distributed artist concepts of its NewGen Tanker, based on the 767, with prominent winglets, sparking discussion among onlookers about why they were needed and how much integration would cost.
One characteristic of the KC-46A in newly released images, however, is the conspicuous absence of the winglets. So, about six weeks after winning the $4.4 billion KC-X development contract, the design is now different than that proposed on the company’s website for months.
Boeing opted against revising its so-called NewGen tanker marketing materials in advance of the source selection despite having earlier determined that the winglets would not be needed after conducting design trade studies. “Based on the USAF refueling requirements, the missions were not of sufficient duration nor conducted at altitudes that optimize the benefits derived from winglets,” according to a company statement provided as a response to the winglets issue. “We felt comfortable showing winglets on the NewGen tanker because we were considering them through the trade study. Showing available technology and potential airplane configurations in marketing material is a normal practice in the industry.”
In short, Bill Barksdale, Boeing’s KC-46A spokesman, says the winglets did not “earn their way onto the airplane.” But, they apparently earned their way into concept art renderings and managed to stay there.
Barksdale declines to say when the design decision was made to opt for standard wings. Boeing’s tanker website still features images of the aircraft with winglets. “I don’t think we are ever going to talk about the timing of when we decided to take them off,” he explains.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news...
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Reply #66 -
Jun 30
th
, 2011 at 9:05am
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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Quote:
Boeing Liable For KC-46 Overage
The U.S. Air Force is expecting to pay the largest amount allowable under the KC-46A contract with Boeing to develop a KC-135 refueler replacement, with Boeing picking up the rest of the tab.
Two months after Boeing won the contract over rival EADS, which proposed an Airbus A330-based design, the Air Force got news that it would need to pay an additional $500 million to develop the 767-based tanker and deliver the first 18 aircraft.
The target cost agreed upon in February for the fixed-price, incentive-fee development was $4.4 billion, according to Air Force officials. However, “Boeing revealed, post-contract award on 25 April 2011, that during source selection it proposed a ceiling price for the [engineering and manufacturing development] contract that is less than its actual projected cost to execute the contract,” says Lt. Col. Jack Miller, an Air Force spokesman, in a statement. “Boeing is liable for all cost above the $4.9 billion contract ceiling.”
Bloomberg broke the news last week that Boeing may have to pay $300 million over the contract ceiling (totaling $5.2 billion) to develop the KC-46A. The company chose a strategy of submitting a low bid – risking a deficit in development — to make up for the loss in projected sales.
The Air Force intends to buy 179 KC-46A tankers, and there are international opportunities. “We expect to make money on the KC-46 tanker program,” says Bill Barksdale, a Boeing spokesman, in a statement. “The KC-46 contract opens additional opportunities, including potential U.S. and international tanker sales and related services for decades to come.” Boeing has not yet been awarded a KC-46 production contract.
Barksdale and Miller both decline to identify the projected amount of the KC-46A development estimate at completion for the development program. Barksdale also declines to say how many of the tankers must be produced for the company to break even. Barksdale says the Boeing KC-46 bid was “aggressive but responsible.” He declined to say when the company realized its actual development cost would exceed the contract ceiling.
Boeing’s next earnings call with investors is July 27, and this may be when the company discusses how it will take a charge or charges for the projected overrun. So far, Boeing’s stock price has not indicated concern from investors.
“It is one program. It is a bit of a surprise, clearly, but in the broader context of everything else going on with the company and the stock, it doesn’t have the weight or bearing” to influence its price, says Byron Callan of Capital Alpha Partners.
One Air Force official says that if Boeing’s out-of-pocket cost is $300 million, “it may be the best $300 million Boeing spends all year” because it maintained the company’s grip on a decades-old refueler business in the U.S. and kept Airbus from establishing a stateside facility to build A330s.
Barksdale notes that the company is on schedule with the KC-46A development work. Few details about the schedule have been released, though, except for the requirement to deliver the first 18 aircraft in the final production configuration by the fourth quarter of fiscal 2017.
Boeing’s low-ball strategy does not violate acquisition law or regulations, Miller says. “There is no legal barrier that prohibits an offer or from pursuing a below-cost proposal strategy,” he says.
Boeing’s bid price was 10% below that of EADS’s, according to company officials after their loss. If the $300 million projected cost to Boeing is true, this would put the price about 4% below that of its rival.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/asd/2011/06/29/01.xml&h...
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Reply #67 -
Jul 19
th
, 2011 at 6:30pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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Quote:
Cost of Boeing’s US Air Force Contract Could Overrun
Five months after Boeing won a massive contract to supply air refuelling tankers to the US Air Force, the US giant fears the project may run over budget, Focus magazine reported Sunday.
The 4.9 billion-dollar (3.5 billion-euro) budget set for the first stage of the project, for the first four of 179 aircraft, was set to overrun, the magazine said, citing a Boeing spokesman.
The spokesman said that if the budget was indeed exceeded, which was expected to happen, Boeing would pick up the extra costs as per the contract.
The US Air Force expected the overrun to reach 300 million euros, the magazine added — from a total contract value of 35 billion dollars.
The Boeing spokesman told Focus the company had made an “aggressive” offer to win the contract in the face of competition from European giant EADS.
Boeing is to deliver the first batch of 18 aircraft by 2017.
The company won the contract to replace a fleet of ageing Boeing aerial refuelling tankers after a long and bitter battle with EADS.
After two earlier decisions were annulled, the Defense Department on February 24 named Boeing the winner. Airbus parent European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company decided not to appeal the decision.
But a spokesman for EADS told Focus magazine: “If Boeing doesn’t fulfill its contract at the agreed price, we are available.”
http://www.aviationnews.eu/2011/07/18/cost-of-boeings-us-air-force-contract-coul...
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Reply #68 -
Aug 29
th
, 2011 at 4:42pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
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Colonel
No C-17B's, C-5M's for
Every One!
Chalreston SC
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Posts: 1148
Quote:
USAF, Boeing Complete Key KC-46A Review
Aug 29, 2011
By Amy Butler
The U.S. Air Force has completed an interim baseline review (IBR) for the KC-46A aerial refueler, clearing the first major schedule milestone for the program.
The review lasted weeks and concluded Aug. 24, according to Jennifer Cassidy, an Air Force spokeswoman. “IBRs are intended to provide a mutual understanding of risks inherent in contractors’ performance plans and underlying management control systems,” she says. An IBR is a formal review conducted directly by the government in cooperation with the contractor team. These reviews also outline what resources are needed to achieve program goals.
The company won the work Feb. 24 under a fixed-price contract. Because of the contract’s aggressive schedule for deliveries by 2017 and the fixed-price development, many in industry are closely watching progress. The IBR was conducted in accordance with the program schedule, which called for the review to be complete within seven months of contract award.
Cassidy says the IBR was “successful,” but service procurement officials declined to provide detail on the outcome of the review. Boeing deferred questions on the IBR to the Air Force.
A critical design review is slated for 31 months after contract award, or September 2013, and the first 18 KC-46As are due for delivery in 2017.
Boeing is expected to exceed its contract ceiling of $4.9 billion; the company is liable for any costs beyond that ceiling (Aerospace DAILY, July 28). The Air Force plans to buy 179 KC-46As to begin replacing the aging KC-135 fleet.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/asd/2011/08/29/01.xml&h...
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Reply #69 -
Aug 29
th
, 2011 at 10:31pm
pfevrier
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Dallas, TX
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Posts: 1640
Wow, imagine the Air Force flying modified Il-96s to fuel up F18s...
I bet a few people would roll in their graves
-Pierre-
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Reply #70 -
Jan 5
th
, 2012 at 9:19pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
Offline
Colonel
No C-17B's, C-5M's for
Every One!
Chalreston SC
Gender:
Posts: 1148
Quote:
Boeing to close historic Wichita plant by end of 2013
WICHITA – Boeing, for decades the brand that helped support Wichita's claim as the aviation capital of the world, announced Wednesday it will shut down facilities in the city by the end of 2013 and send work to plants in three other states as it deals with defense spending cutbacks.
The closure will cost more than 2,160 workers their jobs and end the firm's presence in an area, where it has been a major employer for generations.
The decision was not a surprise because Boeing (BA) said in November that it was looking at closing the Wichita plant. But it still drew an angry response from Kansas lawmakers who helped Boeing land a lucrative Air Force refueling tanker project in February and had expected thousands of jobs to come to Wichita with it. Instead, the work will go to Boeing's facilities near Seattle and Oklahoma City.
"Boeing's announcement is that things have changed," U.S. Sen. Jerry Moran said. "Well, the only thing that really has changed in my mind in the last year is Boeing now has the contract. When they made the commitments, they didn't."
Boeing, a major defense contractor, began looking at closing the plant at the same time the Pentagon was trying to prevent $500 billion in automatic, across-the-board defense budget cuts over 10 years in the wake of a failure by a bipartisan congressional supercommittee to agree on $1.2 trillion or more in deficit reductions.
Wichita officials had hoped the number of jobs at the facility would grow after Boeing won the contract worth at least $35 billion to build 179 Air Force refueling tankers. Modification work on the planes was expected to generate 7,500 direct and indirect jobs with a total economic impact of nearly $390 million.
Boeing said 24 Kansas-based suppliers for the refueling tanker project will still provide parts as planned. On Wednesday, Boeing shares closed up 11 cents to $74.33.
"In this time of defense budget reductions, as well as shifting customer priorities, Boeing has decided to close its operations in Wichita to reduce costs, increase efficiencies and drive competitiveness," Mark Bass, vice president and general manager for the Boeing Defense, Space & Security facility in Wichita, said in a statement.
The first layoffs in Wichita are expected in the third quarter of 2012. While the Seattle area will build the tanker, engineering and modification work on it will move to Oklahoma City and future aircraft maintenance, modification and support will go to San Antonio, Tex.
Oklahoma will get about 800 jobs and San Antonio will gain 300 to 400 jobs, Bass said. The company will move 200 tanker jobs to its plant in Washington, while moving 100 support jobs, primarily engineering, now in Washington to Oklahoma City in the shuffle.
Boeing said it will continue to have a significant impact on the Kansas economy and its aerospace industry. The Chicago-based company spent more than $3.2 billion with 475 Kansas suppliers last year. Kansas is the fourth-largest state in its supplier network, it said.
But that wasn't enough for lawmakers like U.S. Sen. Pat Roberts, who said Boeing had promised as recently as February to remain in Wichita if it landed the tanker contract. Roberts and others urged the company to reconsider.
"Today's announcement by Boeing's leadership is hugely disappointing to me, but more importantly to the thousands of workers whose livelihoods are affected by this decision," Roberts said.
Moran called Boeing's move "a blow to our mental health as well as our pocketbooks." Kansas officials are still willing to do what it takes to keep the Boeing plant open, but "it's difficult to negotiate with someone who hasn't kept their word," he said.
Gov. Sam Brownback promised Kansas will pursue opportunities in commercial aircraft manufacturing. Aircraft makers like Cessna Aircraft Co., Hawker Beechcraft and Bombardier LearJet still have plants in Wichita, which Brownback said remains "the best place in the world to build airplanes."
Boeing has had a facility in Wichita since it bought the Stearman Aircraft Co. in 1929.
Employment at the plant peaked during World War II as the company churned out four bombers a day. Its 40,000 workers included President Barack Obama's beloved grandmother Madelyn Dunham, known as "Toot," who did her part for the war effort by working the night shift as a supervisor on the B-29 bomber assembly line.
The company remained Wichita's largest employer for decades after the war.
It still had about 15,000 workers in the city in 2005, when it spun off its commercial aircraft operations in Kansas and Oklahoma. After the divestiture, Boeing kept 4,500 workers for its defense work in Wichita, but layoffs have since slashed that number.
Even with the defense plant's closure, Boeing will have an economic impact in Wichita. Spirit AeroSystems, which took over Boeing's commercial aircraft operations, builds parts for the company.
"But it would be different to a certain extent because of the fact that, you know, it is kind of like family that you actually have and a member of the family is moving away," said Mayor Carl Brewer, who once worked for Boeing himself. "So there is a lot of emotional and economic attachment tied to this."
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/manufacturing/story/2012-01-04/boeing-p...
Just in case you don't remember what was said and why this was a big deal:
Quote:
Thursday, February 24, 2011......... Release from Gov. Brownback:
Kansas Governor Sam Brownback issued the following statement after the U.S. Air Force announced today that it will award its $35 billion contract to build a new fleet of military air tankers to Boeing Company.
“I have been waiting a decade to say this – Congratulations Boeing workers! This is a great day for the company, its employees as well as for our country’s economy and for Kansas. The U.S. Air Force’s decision to award its $35 billion contract to Boeing is the type of economic growth government can provide to get the U.S. and our state back on the road to economic recovery with good jobs.
I commend the Air Force for keeping the production of this vital program in the United States. It ensures the world’s newest and most capable tanker will be built by Americans for our American warfighters. I am very pleased the tankers will be built here in Kansas by the highly skilled and motivated Wichita area workforce. This is great news for American jobs and for American security.”
Boeing announced last spring Kansas would benefit from approximately 7,500 jobs and an estimated $388 million in annual economic impact if the Boeing NewGen Tanker was selected as the U.S. Air Force's next aerial refueling aircraft
.......
http://www.kake.com/home/headlines/Tanker_Decision_Expected_Thursday_116758334.h...
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Reply #71 -
Jan 7
th
, 2012 at 10:15am
Jayhawk Jake
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Colonel
Wichita, KS
Gender:
Posts: 483
I'm a 'Wichitan' as they'd say, and the Boeing closure has been big news here obviously. I think everyone saw the writing on the wall though...it was inevitable. Hopefully Spirit or Airbus picks up the facility and expands their operations, this city needs more jobs, not a huge loss (especially since Hawker Beechcraft might not exist much longer)
AMD Athalon X6 1090T 3.2Ghz::EVGA nVidia GeForce GTX 560Ti 2GB GDDR5::8GB RAM
*The opinions expressed above are my own and are in no way representative of fact or opinion of any other person, corporation, or company.*
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Reply #72 -
Feb 27
th
, 2012 at 10:32pm
OVERLORD_CHRIS
Offline
Colonel
No C-17B's, C-5M's for
Every One!
Chalreston SC
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Quote:
Boeing Marks 1st Anniversary of KC-46A Tanker Contract Award
The Boeing [NYSE: BA] KC-46 Tanker program today marked the first anniversary of receiving a U.S. Air Force contract to build the next-generation aerial refueling tanker, the KC-46A. Over the past year, the program has completed key milestones in support of the design and development phase on or ahead of schedule, and is now preparing for a Preliminary Design Review (PDR) in March.
“The KC-46 program is on a good path. Boeing’s performance thus far has been solid,” said Maj. Gen. Chris Bogdan, KC-46 Program Executive Officer, U.S. Air Force. “Our commitment is to deliver the KC-46A to the nation’s warfighters, on schedule and ready to go to war on Day One, as the world’s most advanced tanker. I’m pleased to report that Boeing is meeting its commitments.”
Since receiving the contract on Feb. 24, 2011, the Boeing KC-46 team has completed several major milestones, including a System Requirements Review, Integrated Baseline Review, 767-2C PDR, and Firm Configuration Reviews for the 767-2C and the KC-46A Tanker.
“I’m very proud of our joint team,” said Maureen Dougherty, Boeing KC-46 Tanker vice president and program manager. “We’re drawing on the best of Boeing’s industry-leading commercial airplane and defense expertise as we design and develop the KC-46A, which is a next-generation derivative aircraft. We remain on plan to deliver the first 18 combat-ready tankers by 2017.”
The PDR, which will ensure that Boeing’s design meets system requirements, will be followed by a Critical Design Review (CDR) in the third quarter of 2013. The CDR determines that the design of the KC-46A is mature and ready to proceed to the manufacturing phase of the program.
Boeing will build 179 next-generation aerial refueling tanker aircraft that will begin to replace the Air Force’s fleet of 416 KC-135 tankers. Based on the proven Boeing 767 commercial airplane, the KC-46A tanker is a widebody, multi-mission aircraft updated with the latest and most advanced technology to meet the demanding mission requirements of the future, including a digital flight deck featuring Boeing 787 Dreamliner electronic displays and a flight control design philosophy that places aircrews in command to maximize combat maneuverability. The KC-46A also features a modernized KC-10 boom with a fly-by-wire control system, and a refueling envelope and fuel offload rate that is greater than the KC-135 it will replace.
http://www.aviationnews.eu/2012/02/24/boeing-marks-1st-anniversary-of-kc-46a-tan...
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