Simviation Forum - Runway practices

Mar 7^th, 2010 at 4:34pm

skoker Offline
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I was up at the buffalo airport today and saw a common occurance there, planes taking off at 1/2 runway. My question is are there qualifications or rules/regs for a plane that takesoff so far down the runway? Are passenger aircraft able to do the same if the runway is long enough?

Ps. I'm talking about plane taxiing from Rwy14 and taking off at the intersection on to 23. Wink

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Reply #1 - Mar 7^th, 2010 at 5:09pm

olderndirt Offline
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Intersection departures have always been popular and I suppose each 'for hire' outfit has rules about their use but don't think Part121 companies allow them. As a controller, I thought they were a royal pain and also contributed to runway incursion incidents - even fatalities.

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Reply #2 - Mar 7^th, 2010 at 7:27pm

DaveSims Offline
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Clear Lake, Iowa

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skoker wrote on Mar 7^th, 2010 at 4:34pm:

I was up at the buffalo airport today and saw a common occurance there, planes taking off at 1/2 runway. My question is are there qualifications or rules/regs for a plane that takesoff so far down the runway? Are passenger aircraft able to do the same if the runway is long enough?

Ps. I'm talking about plane taxiing from Rwy14 and taking off at the intersection on to 23. Wink

No qualifications necessary, just make sure you have enough runway. A Cub doesn't need 9,000 feet, so an intersection takeoff would work (I have even experienced taking off across a runway in a Cub once). However, the three things that won't help you, fuel in the fuel trucks, altitude above you, and the runway behind you. I believe air lines may be prohibited from doing it. I also agree it can cause confusion and runway incursions if the controller isn't paying close attention.

Dave

www.flymcw.com

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Reply #3 - Mar 7^th, 2010 at 8:49pm

JoBee Offline
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Watch this thru to the end - http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/videos/media/simulation.html

It was an interesting day, no doubt.

cheers,
Joe

Don't argue with idiots, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

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Reply #4 - Mar 8^th, 2010 at 4:33am

C Offline
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DaveSims wrote on Mar 7^th, 2010 at 7:27pm:

)However, the three things that won't help you, fuel in the fuel trucks, altitude above you, and the runway behind you. I believe air lines may be prohibited from doing it.

Not sure about the airlines being prohibited. Apart from the slightly extra workload for the controller, as long as the aircraft has the performance for the runway length available, then there are no major dramas.

Certainly when you look at 10000ft+ runways, if your aircraft is capable of using several thousand feet less without compromising safety, then you'll be saving a little bit of time (and a tiny bit of fuel).

I'm a fan of using all the available runway though myself, unless you could effectively get V

1

/V

r

unity on the shorter distance.

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Reply #5 - Mar 8^th, 2010 at 8:55am

aeroart Offline
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I don't know if it's still allowed, but we used to do intersection take-offs with Mohawk Airlines at places like KJFK. Saved lots of time and avoided inhaling lots of jet engine exhaust. The Convairs didn't need all that concrete.

Art

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Reply #6 - Mar 8^th, 2010 at 10:36am

DaveSims Offline
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C wrote on Mar 8^th, 2010 at 4:33am:

DaveSims wrote on Mar 7^th, 2010 at 7:27pm:

)However, the three things that won't help you, fuel in the fuel trucks, altitude above you, and the runway behind you. I believe air lines may be prohibited from doing it.

Not sure about the airlines being prohibited. Apart from the slightly extra workload for the controller, as long as the aircraft has the performance for the runway length available, then there are no major dramas.

Certainly when you look at 10000ft+ runways, if your aircraft is capable of using several thousand feet less without compromising safety, then you'll be saving a little bit of time (and a tiny bit of fuel).

I'm a fan of using all the available runway though myself, unless you could effectively get V

1

/V

r

unity on the shorter distance.

Have you checked out the simulation Joe posted right above you? There have been many other close calls due to similar situations. Sometimes the controller just assumes an aircraft waiting to takeoff is at the threshold. That being said, a pilot can watch out for himself to avoid becoming a statistic just by doing a couple of things. First, make sure you include your location when you contact the tower, not just ready for takeoff. Second, situational awareness. If the pilot of the private jet would have been paying attention, he would have heard the Jet Blue cleared for takeoff moments before he was told to enter the runway. If he would have taken a moment to look down the runway, he would have seen the Airbus's landing lights coming his way fast. The Jet Blue crew should also have noticed the airplane in front of them and aborted takeoff much sooner.

Dave

www.flymcw.com

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Reply #7 - Mar 8^th, 2010 at 11:31am

C Offline
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DaveSims wrote on Mar 8^th, 2010 at 10:36am:

Have you checked out the simulation Joe posted right above you?

I'd missed that link - I'll have a look now.

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Reply #8 - Mar 8^th, 2010 at 6:09pm

specter177 Offline
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I would only do it if the airport had very light traffic, a very long runway, I was on the wrong side of the field, and I had a slow airplane with a radio, and the field was controlled.

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Reply #9 - Mar 8^th, 2010 at 10:49pm

olderndirt Offline
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By and large, most of these runway incursions are the result of actions/inactions taken by both controllers and pilots. When you look at the average airport diagram, many operators are in a poor location for the runway in use so the nearest suitable intersection becomes their choice. Another factor, which I'm not sure is current but, way back when, a pilot could waive the turbulence delay from an intersection which he couldn't have done departing from the end. This rule may have been removed so don't quote me. In looking at that little visual of the incident posted above, I wonder if anything like that is available to a tower controller. A video diagram of the airport with the cast of characters showing their positions and flashing when they talked could certainly enhance awareness. Just like the old Abbot and Costello routine - Whos on first, Whats on second and I don't know's on third.

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Reply #10 - Mar 11^th, 2010 at 6:55pm

-Crossfire- Offline
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I've seen AC Jazz Dash-8's do intersection take-offs at YVR many times.

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Reply #11 - Apr 7^th, 2010 at 4:41am

Towerguy Offline
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Auckland, New Zealand

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use them all the time,
gives the controller much more choice to mix the departure order to achieve a better throughput or better order for the departure controller, on our system (electronic strips) the different departure positions are listed seperately so it is easy to see where they are and it's pointless to taxi a light aircraft 2 miles and put it behind a taxiing b747 when it could be airborne and gone before the heavy even gets to the runway. with 2 miles of runway we even get B767 and even B744 and B772 take the insets at times depending o the conditions.

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Reply #12 - Jun 29^th, 2010 at 6:37pm

Andy Hughes Offline
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Silverton, Oregon

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This is standard practice at many airport.
At Van Nuys, for instance, we used to line up 3 or 4 planes deep at EACH of the intersections A through J on the 8000' runway waiting for the go ahead. The scary/dangerous part is when a large plane comes in and doesn't land in the first half of the runway.... saw a 172 flip over once.

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