Search the archive:
YaBB - Yet another Bulletin Board
 
   
 
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
Properly dealing with extreme P-torque? (Read 727 times)
Reply #15 - Sep 5th, 2009 at 4:37am

Travis   Offline
Colonel
Cannot find REALITY.SYS.
Universe halted.
Dripping Springs, TX

Gender: male
Posts: 4515
*****
 
Wow!  Bunch of answers in few hours.  We all have those nuggets of wisdom, don't we? Wink

My two pennies:

In real life flight, I found that even when I assumed I was climbing and maintaining a correct heading, etc, I was still drifting left of the runway because of P-torque.  It's an irritant, to be sure, but very correctable.  What I tended to do was adjust my heading by about 3 degrees to starboard as I took off (your twist, my rudder pedals), and slowly let that out as I get up to pattern alt.
 

...
IP Logged
 
Reply #16 - Sep 5th, 2009 at 4:46am

Hagar   Offline
Colonel
My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica

Posts: 33159
*****
 
Travis wrote on Sep 5th, 2009 at 4:37am:
Wow!  Bunch of answers in few hours.  We all have those nuggets of wisdom, don't we? Wink

My two pennies:

In real life flight, I found that even when I assumed I was climbing and maintaining a correct heading, etc, I was still drifting left of the runway because of P-torque.  It's an irritant, to be sure, but very correctable.  What I tended to do was adjust my heading by about 3 degrees to starboard as I took off (your twist, my rudder pedals), and slowly let that out as I get up to pattern alt.

Most aircraft have some sort of rudder trim to automatically compensate for this problem. On some types this can only be adjusted on the ground. This particular aircraft might need looking at.

Just my two penn'orth. Wink
 

...

Founder & Sole Member - Grumpy's Over the Hill Club for Veteran Virtual Aviators
Member of the Fox Four Group

Need help? Try Grumpy's Lair

My photo gallery
IP Logged
 
Reply #17 - Sep 5th, 2009 at 9:43am

ShaneG   Offline
Colonel
I turned into a Martian!

Posts: 10000
*****
 
Travis: I've noticed that drift, and an almost gyroscopic effect while flying and trying to maintain a steady course, until now, I thought it was the wind pushing me around, (lots of bad weather in the world here lately)  but that explanation makes a ton of sense. Smiley



Hagar wrote on Sep 5th, 2009 at 4:46am:
This particular aircraft might need looking at.



Here is the link to the plane, paints, & paint kit. Smiley

http://skyunlimited.net/skyboard/YaBB.pl?num=1212914234/0

(screenshots at the link)
Features include:

· Two highly detailed models by Mike Wholaver featuring the regular BF-109F 4 and the BF-109F 4 with tropical equipment.
· Over Twenty beautiful paint schemes by Alessandro Biagi.
· A stunning dynamic virtual cockpit, complete with standard Fs2004 features.
· Highly detailed 2D panel by Lobo da Silva
· The Daimler-Benz engine that powered this great aircraft is modeled in stunning detail and can be seen by using the wingfold command
· Fully animated vintage pilot with moving legs, arms, and head
· Complete custom sound set made for authentic recordings of the Daimler-benz engine that powered these aircraft.
· Machine Gun Effects triggered by After-Burner Command
· Custom High Altitude Vapor-trail effects and wing-tip vortice effects. 
· Realistic flight dynamics by Jerry Beckwith that accurately portray this aircraft's attributes both good and bad.
· Several Pages of Historical Information are included as well as an actual BF-109 Checklist.
· All appropriate Fs2004 features and animations, including a fully animated pilot, and working leading edge slats.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #18 - Sep 5th, 2009 at 12:15pm

Hagar   Offline
Colonel
My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica

Posts: 33159
*****
 
ShaneG wrote on Sep 5th, 2009 at 9:43am:
Hagar wrote on Sep 5th, 2009 at 4:46am:
This particular aircraft might need looking at.



Here is the link to the plane, paints, & paint kit. Smiley

http://skyunlimited.net/skyboard/YaBB.pl?num=1212914234/0

Sorry, I meant the aircraft that Travis flies in real life. If it's trimmed properly it shouldn't have this problem.
 

...

Founder & Sole Member - Grumpy's Over the Hill Club for Veteran Virtual Aviators
Member of the Fox Four Group

Need help? Try Grumpy's Lair

My photo gallery
IP Logged
 
Reply #19 - Sep 5th, 2009 at 12:29pm

Romflyer   Offline
Colonel
Hello!
Canada

Gender: male
Posts: 365
*****
 
Hagar wrote on Sep 5th, 2009 at 12:15pm:
ShaneG wrote on Sep 5th, 2009 at 9:43am:
Hagar wrote on Sep 5th, 2009 at 4:46am:
This particular aircraft might need looking at.





Here is the link to the plane, paints, & paint kit. Smiley

http://skyunlimited.net/skyboard/YaBB.pl?num=1212914234/0

Sorry, I meant the aircraft that Travis flies in real life. If it's trimmed properly it shouldn't have this problem.


In my experience a properly trimmed rudder will pull left with throttle open and pull right with throttle closed
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #20 - Sep 5th, 2009 at 1:34pm

DaveSims   Offline
Colonel
Clear Lake, Iowa

Gender: male
Posts: 2453
*****
 
Romflyer wrote on Sep 5th, 2009 at 12:29pm:
Hagar wrote on Sep 5th, 2009 at 12:15pm:
ShaneG wrote on Sep 5th, 2009 at 9:43am:
Hagar wrote on Sep 5th, 2009 at 4:46am:
This particular aircraft might need looking at.





Here is the link to the plane, paints, & paint kit. Smiley

http://skyunlimited.net/skyboard/YaBB.pl?num=1212914234/0

Sorry, I meant the aircraft that Travis flies in real life. If it's trimmed properly it shouldn't have this problem.


In my experience a properly trimmed rudder will pull left with throttle open and pull right with throttle closed


In an aircraft with a fixed rudder trim tab, the goal is to usually have a trimmed aircraft at cruise speed. 

As for locking tailwheels, the P-51 and the T-6 to the best of my knowledge do have locking tailwheels whenever the stick is pulled back, and is released when the stick is pushed forward.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #21 - Sep 5th, 2009 at 1:59pm

olderndirt   Offline
Colonel
Flying is PFM
Rochester, WA

Gender: male
Posts: 3574
*****
 
With the primary objective of your average takeoff being to get airborne with some  semblance of dignity, your first order of business is to keep it straight.  Failing that, catch the swerve and, if it's not much, go with the new straight line.  What I'm saying is, while not perfect, an angled line of takeoff is better than trying to correct back to the right, often an exercise in futility - just stay inside the lights  Smiley  In the climb your left turning tendency moves the ball in the turn indicator to the right.  Simply 'step on the ball', moving it back to center - keep it there, wings level, and your climb will remain straight.  Here's where rudder trim is nice.  Another thought (I'm full of them  Smiley).  On the takeoff roll, don't try to raise the tail prematurely so you can see better.  This just adds the gyro thing to the mix when your rudder's least effective.  Let the tail fly by itself then keep it fairly low - seems to help.  To think I used to get $20 an hour for this  Smiley.
 

... 

                            
THIS IS NOT A PANAM CLIPPER

                                                            
IP Logged
 
Reply #22 - Sep 5th, 2009 at 9:51pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
Colonel
EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
BE AN NDB

Gender: male
Posts: 3593
*****
 
All good stuff..   and it's hard to over-emphasize how much easier it is to manage, with rudder pedals..

But the BIG pointer was from davysims..  Some of those old airplanes had enough horsepower to sustain 400+ knots  in level flight.  With some flaps deployed, they only needed ~100 knots to get off the ground..
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #23 - Sep 6th, 2009 at 8:49am

DaveSims   Offline
Colonel
Clear Lake, Iowa

Gender: male
Posts: 2453
*****
 
Brett_Henderson wrote on Sep 5th, 2009 at 9:51pm:
All good stuff..   and it's hard to over-emphasize how much easier it is to manage, with rudder pedals..

But the BIG pointer was from davysims..  Some of those old airplanes had enough horsepower to sustain 400+ knots  in level flight.  With some flaps deployed, they only needed ~100 knots to get off the ground..


That was a tidbit I picked up from working at my airport.  We have a few warbird pilots based here, flying everything from T-6s, P-51s, and B-25s.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #24 - Sep 6th, 2009 at 11:07am

olderndirt   Offline
Colonel
Flying is PFM
Rochester, WA

Gender: male
Posts: 3574
*****
 
Fact is all aircraft of a similar gear geometry exhibit these same torque/P factor characteristics on takeoff.  Those with more horsepower do it more violently and require special attention.  Puddlejumpers, while more benign, still need rudder input to stay straight.  Everything said in this thread talks to the problem so let's see serious improvement  Smiley.   
 

... 

                            
THIS IS NOT A PANAM CLIPPER

                                                            
IP Logged
 
Reply #25 - Sep 7th, 2009 at 6:01am

Nav   Offline
Colonel

Posts: 717
*****
 
Quote:
I could be wrong but don't think most single-engined WWII fighters had this feature. Certainly not the Bf 109 & Spitfire.


Must admit, Hagar, I was thinking of FS models rather than the real thing -and all high-performance aircraft rather than just the 109........

Quote:
Not sure about using brakes on a typical WWII fighter during take-off or landing. That would usually end in disaster.


As a matter of fact they did - risking possible disasters seems sometimes to have been the only way to avoid certain ones.  Smiley

Worth quoting "The Big Show" by Pierre Clostermann, who IMO wrote quite the best book ever - "The Big Show" - about the WW2 air war, and describes his first (and very nearly his last) flight in a Typhoon:-

With my parachute on my back it took three people to help me up to the Typhoon's cockpit, which is nine feet off the ground. As the plane is very streamlined there is nothing to hang on to. You have to get your fingers in hollows which are covered by metal plates on spring hinges.

They close up again when you removed your hand or your foot, just like a rat trap. In the end they hoisted me up, settled me in, slapped me on the back, shouted 'good luck', and I found myself all alone inside the bowels of the monster.

I rapidly called back to mind all the gen my instructors had given me. As the exhaust gases had a high carbon dioxide content, and seeped into the cockpit, you had to breathe oxygen all the time. I therefore hurriedly put on my mask and opened the intake valve. On take-off Typhoons swing hard right and I therefore adjusted the rudder trim very carefully. I opened the radiator wide. I checked the locking of the undercart-the lever looked uncomfortably like the one for the flaps. I lowered the flaps control to open up the pneumatic circuit in order to avoid ram effect just as I started up.

----------

I had been warned that Typhoons swung, but surely not as much as this! And the brute gathered speed like a rocket. I corrected as much as I could with the brakes but even then I found myself drifting dangerously to the right.

Half way down the runway my right wheel was practically on the grass. If I came off the concrete I would gracefully flip on my back.

To hell with it..I tore her off the ground. Luckily they had hauled E Hangar down, after a series of accidents all due to the same cause - but I still passed uncomfortably close to F Hangar........

This plane just had no lateral stability at all. I still went on drifting to starboard and, with those miserable ailerons that only 'bit' at speeds higher than 100mph, I dared not lower my port wing too much.

---------

Just a wee dive to see what happened. Phew, with its seven tons the things acceleration downhill was simply fantastic. I realized with satisfaction that as far as speed was concerned this was much better than a Spitfire. What would it be like in a Tempest?

Half an hour quickly passed and I began to summon up courage for the landing. First a circuit at full throttle at 420mph to clear those bloody plugs all over again. But after that I couldn't seem to reduce speed enough to lower my undercart with safety, even though I throttled back, swishtailed violently and lowered my radiator. One circuit engine ticking over 300mph. Another circuit, at 250mph.In desperation I did a vertical climb without the engine. This took me up about 3000 feet but it reduced my speed to about 200mph. At this low speed the machine was horribly unstable, and letting down the undercart had an unexpected effect on the center of gravity. Once again, though I had been warned, I was taken by surprise, this time by terrific swings, more like incipient spins than anything else.

I asked for permission to land. Cautiously, nice and straight, and with a good reserve of speed, I made my approach and lowered the flaps, and everything went off fine until I tried to level out. Those thick wings seemed to have plenty of lift but they were treacherous. I had just begun to ease the stick back when the whole contraption stalled and dropped like a stone, then it bounced back a good 30 feet with its nose in the air amidst an appalling din.

I opened up like mad to break the fall wrestling at the same time with the ailerons so as not to land on my back.

Eventually after bucking two or three times like a mustang, my Typhoon calmed down and rolled drunkenly down the runway which now looked distinctly short.


Clostermann only died a few days ago. RIP - I have to thank him for the fact that his marvellous book was one of the main things that sparked my interest in aviation, all those years ago......
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print