Simviation Forum - Junkyard syndrome

Reply #15 - Jul 26^th, 2009 at 5:38am

basys Offline
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Hi Folks

Brett_Henderson wrote on Jul 25^th, 2009 at 6:14pm:

If it were "hard" errors.. i.e. cfg syntax,
or physically non-present textures,
it would manifest itself on all computers.

Sorry but that's an inaccurate supposition. Wink

There are lots of simobjects out there
with either missing or incorrectly configured textures,
which render acceptably on some machines,
but not on others.

n.b.
The texture doesn't even need to be mapped onto a model surface,
it just needs to exist in the model heirarchy, (previously used, but not deleted).

FSX will attempt to fail gracefully.

The occurence of a render stall
is down to the PC's available resources at rendering time.

You can induce render stalls on any machine.
Set every slider to max,
and then admire your autogen sky-pillars.

If the PC has sufficient resources,
pressing pause, then ESC, ESC,
can cause the objects to be rendered correctly.

In this instance,
the user's default aircraft -
- with default paints, renders correctly.
- with addon paints, renders incorrectly.

Please read those Wiki links.

Boikat -
Forgot to explicitly mention -
Issue may also occur if a texture is of a non-DXT format.

Although the file extension may be .dds,
the file's content itself might not be.

To identify the filename of missing textures, (simobject or scenery),
add the following lines to your fsx.CFG into the section titled [SCENERY].

Code:

[SCENERY]
// To show alerts or areas, set to = 1
// To hide alerts or areas, set to = 0

// Alert for missing textures
ShowMissingTextureAlert=1

HTH
ATB
Paul

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Reply #16 - Jul 26^th, 2009 at 9:22am

Brett_Henderson Offline
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basys wrote on Jul 26^th, 2009 at 5:38am:

Hi Folks

Brett_Henderson wrote on Jul 25^th, 2009 at 6:14pm:

If it were "hard" errors.. i.e. cfg syntax,
or physically non-present textures,
it would manifest itself on all computers.

Sorry but that's an inaccurate supposition. Wink

There are lots of simobjects out there
with either missing or incorrectly configured textures,
which render acceptably on some machines,
but not on others.

Regarding the original post (animated parts askew); it is most definately a hardware problem, and almost always a graphics card issue. If your hardware (and drivers) are up to the task, they render properly.

Of course; for the models I've made, I assume an FSX installation that is up to SP2. Now, if it's something overlooked (like part of an animated part needing a texture referenced by a cfg fallback that doesn't exist), that would cause a problem on any computer. If FSX has all the instructions it needs (modeled and fallback), and still "gives up" on animated parts; we're talking about hardware (normally a graphics card) having its limits exceeded...plain and simple.

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Reply #17 - Jul 26^th, 2009 at 9:35am

Boikat Offline
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Quote:

Boikat -
Forgot to explicitly mention -
Issue may also occur if a texture is of a non-DXT format.

Although the file extension may be .dds,
the file's content itself might not be.

To identify the filename of missing textures, (simobject or scenery),
add the following lines to your fsx.CFG into the section titled [SCENERY].

Code:[SCENERY]
// To show alerts or areas, set to = 1
// To hide alerts or areas, set to = 0

// Alert for missing textures
ShowMissingTextureAlert=1

I got several hit's on that:

Pilots_737.dds
B737_800_2_T_Bump.dds
B737_800_2_T_Specular.DDS
B737_800_1_T_Bump.dds
B737_800_1_T_Specular.dds
Interior.dds

I checked the "AC-40A" texture(I have this one broke out into it's own "Aircraft" folder so all 737-800's don't have side-firing artillery. Wink

), and they were all there, so I replaced them from the 737-800 main texture folder, and it's happy now.

The odd thing is that I never did any "repainting" on it, so I'm curious as to how those files went "off the map", so to speak.

Now I just have to figure out what's going on with some of the other "junkyards", and Alrot's Cessena 310. It's all "ghosty" looking, for some reason. I don't think it's the grphics card (GeForce 9400 ).

Thanks! One problem down!

"I reject your reality, and substitute my own" Adam Savage, Mythbusters

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Reply #18 - Jul 26^th, 2009 at 9:51am

Brett_Henderson Offline
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RE: 310 "Ghosting".. I modeled that aircraft withy 2048X2048 textures..

While a 9400 "should" be OK with them, even though it's a low-end card.. and even high-end, older cards with less tha 512MB of their own memory have trouble.. Alrot availed EVERY texturing option available to FSX. when he finished that model up... so not only do you need a high-end, high-RAM card.. you MUST be running SP2.

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Reply #19 - Jul 26^th, 2009 at 10:06am

Boikat Offline
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Believe it or not, it actully worked before without SP2 and before I got the graphics card. I did notice that in my FSX.cfg, there appear to be at least three Display device entries:

(Original computer "on board" graphics)
[DISPLAY.Device.Intel(R) G33/G31 Express Chipset Family.0]
Mode=1440x900x32
AntiAlias=1

(1st graphics card I tried, talk about "junkyard aricraft..All of them looked like junkyards with that one)

[DISPLAY.Device.NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200.0]
Mode=1440x900x32
AntiAlias=1

(What I have now)

[DISPLAY.Device.NVIDIA GeForce 9400 GT .0]
Mode=1440x900x32
AntiAlias=1

But at least the AC-40 works now.

"I reject your reality, and substitute my own" Adam Savage, Mythbusters

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Reply #20 - Jul 26^th, 2009 at 10:11am

Boikat Offline
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Ah! Something else weird I found: Under the [GRAPGICS] the "TEXTURE_MAX_LOAD" was set to 512!

I'd like to know how *that* happened! Me thinks my 'puter has a poltergeist runnung aouund in it! Shocked

"I reject your reality, and substitute my own" Adam Savage, Mythbusters

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Reply #21 - Jul 26^th, 2009 at 10:43am

basys Offline
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Today the UK, tomorrow............
. somewhere else
EGNL, Barrow-in-Furness, Cumbria, UK

Posts: 109

Hi Folks

Brett_Henderson wrote on Jul 26^th, 2009 at 9:22am:

Regarding the original post (animated parts askew);
it is most definately a hardware problem,
and almost always a graphics card issue.
If your hardware (and drivers) are up to the task, they render properly.

Sorry Brett,
but again mistaken suppositions. Wink

If a simobject displays -
- correctly with default texture set,
- incorrectly with a repaint.

Then 1)
If you then move to another location,
and it now displays correctly,

Else 2)
If you then reduce your slider settings,
and it now displays correctly.

Else 3)
If you then press ESC, ESC,
and it now displays correctly.

Else 4)
The user shuts down all extraneous processes,
e.g. Web-browser, anti-virus, email client, I-Pod updater.
and it now displays correctly.

Please explain why all these are HARDWARE problems.
and how your HARDWARE has suddenly healed itself ?

Brett_Henderson wrote on Jul 26^th, 2009 at 9:22am:

Of course;
for the models I've made,
I assume an FSX installation that is up to SP2.
Now,
if it's something overlooked
(like part of an animated part needing a texture referenced by a cfg fallback that doesn't exist),
that would cause a problem on any computer.

Same again.

FSX attempts to fail gracefully.
Depending on your PC's capabilities for the current scenario
the user won't nescessarily see any issue whatsoever.

Brett_Henderson wrote on Jul 26^th, 2009 at 9:22am:

If FSX has all the instructions it needs (modeled and fallback),
and still "gives up" on animated parts;
we're talking about hardware (normally a graphics card) having its limits exceeded...
plain and simple.

Having INSTRUCTIONS, (model calls),
and having DATA, (textures),
are two seperate issues.

Again its not a hardware issue.
It's a software/modeler/user configuration issue.

The dissociated parts issue, and solutions,
were known identified scenarios
throughout all versions of FSX's beta testing.

Boikat -
re: Cessna 310
Users with a high-spec, and well configured PC,
probably won't see any issues with this model,
but are relying on FSX failing gracefully.

The model calls several missing, or mismatching extension, textures.
all of which cause additional file searches,
with the potential for render stalls occuring.

Try renaming the -
Prop_C310.dds
to -
Prop_C310.bmp

chrome_T.dds
to -
chrome_T.bmp

Tmp_C.dds
to -
Tmp_C.bmp

VCINTERIOR.dds
to -
VCINTERIOR.bmp

Just to see what happens, (where mapped),
try adding a dummy 1px flourescent green texture named -
C310_1_T.bmp

EDIT -
Boikat -
You'd posted while I was composing.

Ensure you remove those 2 extraneous DISPLAY.Device. entries.

HTH
ATB
Paul

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Reply #22 - Jul 26^th, 2009 at 11:54am

Brett_Henderson Offline
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Quote:

Please explain why all these are HARDWARE problems.
and how your HARDWARE has suddenly healed itself ?

You're splitting hairs.. I'm not gonna chase you..

Reducing sliders.. changing locations.. etc.. are things you DO NOT have to do, if you have adequate hardware. Your hardware hasn't healed.. you've just made allowances for it. Roll Eyes

You hit it on the head here:

Quote:

Depending on your PC's capabilities for the current scenario
the user won't nescessarily see any issue whatsoever.

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Reply #23 - Jul 26^th, 2009 at 11:54am

Boikat Offline
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Will do. Thanks!

"I reject your reality, and substitute my own" Adam Savage, Mythbusters

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Reply #24 - Jul 26^th, 2009 at 12:36pm

Brett_Henderson Offline
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This whole thing has me thinking. Humor me..

With the 310, we're talking about an original paint job. If there are "graceful failures", what exactly failed ? The entire model is rendered, with all animated parts properly textured.

I'd have to see the final Gmax file, to see if there are any "extra" materials, that would call for missing textures. When the model left my hands.. the only thing mapped was a basic texture with reference layers and basic seams/rivets.

Now, on to the problem (ghosting)(not "junkyard").

The cure has been universally, an upgradde to SP2, and/or a better graphics card.. OR reducing the main texture resolution to 1024X1024.

To me, FSX and why it might fail (graceful or otherwise), is a "Black Box". The 310 renders properly under SP2 with a good v-card. If there is a graceful failure in there.. what exactly failed, and if it IS a failure; why does everything render perfectly ?

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Reply #25 - Jul 30^th, 2009 at 5:35pm

crazyhorseabg Offline
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Brett_Henderson wrote on Jul 26^th, 2009 at 9:22am:

basys wrote on Jul 26^th, 2009 at 5:38am:

Hi Folks

Brett_Henderson wrote on Jul 25^th, 2009 at 6:14pm:

If it were "hard" errors.. i.e. cfg syntax,
or physically non-present textures,
it would manifest itself on all computers.

Sorry but that's an inaccurate supposition. Wink

There are lots of simobjects out there
with either missing or incorrectly configured textures,
which render acceptably on some machines,
but not on others.

Regarding the original post (animated parts askew); it is most definately a hardware problem, and almost always a graphics card issue. If your hardware (and drivers) are up to the task, they render properly.

Of course; for the models I've made, I assume an FSX installation that is up to SP2. Now, if it's something overlooked (like part of an animated part needing a texture referenced by a cfg fallback that doesn't exist), that would cause a problem on any computer. If FSX has all the instructions it needs (modeled and fallback), and still "gives up" on animated parts; we're talking about hardware (normally a graphics card) having its limits exceeded...plain and simple.

Agree with Brett it's indeed simobjects and probably the grapics card try to upgrade software for grapics card but sp2 will be the biggest problem.

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Reply #26 - Jul 30^th, 2009 at 11:34pm

Boikat Offline
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Most likely, not having SP2 installed is the culpret on the Cessna 310. I must have "worked" before by "failing gracefully", and for whatever reason, will not "fail gracefully" after I installed the grahics card.

Hopefully, I'll get to that this weekend.

Thanks for all the infut, guys!!

"I reject your reality, and substitute my own" Adam Savage, Mythbusters

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Reply #27 - Jul 31^st, 2009 at 5:39am

Daube Offline
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Boikat wrote on Jul 26^th, 2009 at 10:11am:

Ah! Something else weird I found: Under the [GRAPGICS] the "TEXTURE_MAX_LOAD" was set to 512!

I'd like to know how *that* happened! Me thinks my 'puter has a poltergeist runnung aouund in it! Shocked

I think this TEXTURE_MAX_LOAD is directly linked to the global texture size slider in the advanced display settings of FSX.

Got bloom ?
Got mountains ?
Got damage ?

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