Simviation Forum - Two die in mid-air glider collision

Jun 14^th, 2009 at 4:24pm

machineman9 Offline
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I had a quick scan but couldn't see anything about this.

Two die in mid air glider collision

Pilot of the glider is thought to have landed using their parachute. One cadet an an RAF Reservist weren't so lucky.

It hasn't been brilliant for cadets in the past few months. Thoughts go to all involved. They died doing something amazing.

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Reply #1 - Jun 14^th, 2009 at 6:09pm

Anxyous Offline
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2009 has been such a bad year for aviation so far Sad

My thoughts go out to all those involved...

&&&&

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Reply #2 - Jun 14^th, 2009 at 8:55pm

machineman9 Offline
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Yeah there have been some bad moments in the last few months.

I believe with the last crash, the two Tutors, there was a bit of talk about halting flights and things. With this second crash I can only hope they start to look even more at what is happening and hopefully prevent it in the future. Some things are accidental, but there are always precautions to take. As much as I enjoy flying with cadets, I'd rather they stop flights for a month and fix any problems that may have resulted in these recent events and then continue, rather than just carry on with chances of it happening again.

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Reply #3 - Jun 15^th, 2009 at 12:03am

beaky Offline
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machineman9 wrote on Jun 14^th, 2009 at 8:55pm:

Some things are accidental, but there are always precautions to take.

I get what you are saying... but let's face it, every aviation accident begins with an error of some kind. They're all preventable.
This doesn't necessarily mean they can do more than they are already to promote safe procedures, but the worst possible response is to be fatalistic about it. "Their number just came up" is, to me, the flipside of "it can't happen to me"... equally useless, and ultimately dangerous.

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Reply #4 - Jun 15^th, 2009 at 7:00am

C Offline
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machineman9 wrote on Jun 14^th, 2009 at 8:55pm:

As much as I enjoy flying with cadets, I'd rather they stop flights for a month and fix any problems that may have resulted in these recent events and then continue, rather than just carry on with chances of it happening again.

Sadly, stopping flying would achieve nothing, other than 100% safety. Whilst the January incident was unfortunate, I suspect this one will reinforce the argument that in today's busy airspace, all users should use a transponder with a height readout capability. Having flown at weekends around the home counties, and had to avoid numerous gliders and light aircraft, who we either spot with Mk1 eyeball, or with direction from ATC ("Contact 11 o'clock, no height information" etc etc), this thing is waiting to happen.

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Reply #5 - Jun 15^th, 2009 at 8:17am

expat Offline
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C wrote on Jun 15^th, 2009 at 7:00am:

machineman9 wrote on Jun 14^th, 2009 at 8:55pm:

As much as I enjoy flying with cadets, I'd rather they stop flights for a month and fix any problems that may have resulted in these recent events and then continue, rather than just carry on with chances of it happening again.

Sadly, stopping flying would achieve nothing, other than 100% safety. Whilst the January incident was unfortunate, I suspect this one will reinforce the argument that in today's busy airspace, all users should use a transponder with a height readout capability. Having flown at weekends around the home counties, and had to avoid numerous gliders and light aircraft, who we either spot with Mk1 eyeball, or with direction from ATC ("Contact 11 o'clock, no height information" etc etc), this thing is waiting to happen.

TCAS would be the answer. Getting to be pretty standard in GA in the USA. Friend of mine uses one and it is the size of a cigarette packed. OK it does not have resolution ability and it only has an LED panel that gives you a direction of conflict, but it is better than nothing. It would be great if everyone had a transponder, but 99% of the time, gliders are in uncontrolled airspace as are pleasure flights on a Sunday afternoon.

Matt

PETA People Eating Tasty Animals.

B1 Boeing 737-800 and Dash8 Q-400

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Reply #6 - Jun 15^th, 2009 at 10:44am

C Offline
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expat wrote on Jun 15^th, 2009 at 8:17am:

C wrote on Jun 15^th, 2009 at 7:00am:

machineman9 wrote on Jun 14^th, 2009 at 8:55pm:

As much as I enjoy flying with cadets, I'd rather they stop flights for a month and fix any problems that may have resulted in these recent events and then continue, rather than just carry on with chances of it happening again.

Sadly, stopping flying would achieve nothing, other than 100% safety. Whilst the January incident was unfortunate, I suspect this one will reinforce the argument that in today's busy airspace, all users should use a transponder with a height readout capability. Having flown at weekends around the home counties, and had to avoid numerous gliders and light aircraft, who we either spot with Mk1 eyeball, or with direction from ATC ("Contact 11 o'clock, no height information" etc etc), this thing is waiting to happen.

TCAS would be the answer. Getting to be pretty standard in GA in the USA. Friend of mine uses one and it is the size of a cigarette packed. OK it does not have resolution ability and it only has an LED panel that gives you a direction of conflict, but it is better than nothing. It would be great if everyone had a transponder, but 99% of the time, gliders are in uncontrolled airspace as are pleasure flights on a Sunday afternoon.

Don't you only appear on TCAS if you have a transponder? Some gliders do, and they're the easier ones to spot. Some light aircraft don't even seem to bother, and it's left to some poor controller looking at dozens of blips on a radar screen of which he has little idea of altitude.

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Reply #7 - Jun 15^th, 2009 at 3:57pm

machineman9 Offline
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TCAS communicates between all aircraft with an appropriate transponder, yes.

But I think anything like this, for what it is worth, should be implemented where possible. Even financially speaking, just from a quick look, TCAS can cost about £500-£1000 for a fairly simple system. It seems more affordable and safer to stick one of those systems in all the training aircraft than to have to replace one which has crashed.

I didn't quite mean to take the subject off of what has really happened here. There are solutions to make flying safer, whether they are implemented or not is not my decision. Still unfortunate that this happened and I still wish the best for all involved.

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Reply #8 - Jun 15^th, 2009 at 10:22pm

beaky Offline
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TCAS might help, but it's a double-edged sword... in busy terminal environments, pilots often get so used to the damn thing warning them constantly about aircraft they already see, or aircraft that ATC has pointed out already, that they start to ignore it. Collisions have in fact occurred in good weather between TCAS-equipped aircraft under ATC control.

Either that or they end up focusing too much on it when they should just be looking outside... sometimes I think the first 30 hours of training should be done in an aircraft with nothing but an altimeter, clock, and yaw string... less distractions that way.

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Reply #9 - Jun 18^th, 2009 at 7:58am

C Offline
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beaky wrote on Jun 15^th, 2009 at 10:22pm:

Either that or they end up focusing too much on it when they should just be looking outside... sometimes I think the first 30 hours of training should be done in an aircraft with nothing but an altimeter, clock, and yaw string... less distractions that way.

Tutor's relatively simple - the most advanced thing is a GPS.

Sadly UK airspace is very very congested, both controlled airspace and uncontrolled. It's time all users had to fit a transponder to allow ATC to do their job and provide the appropriate service.

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