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Battle of Trafalgar and other great naval battles. (Read 2025 times)
May 14
th
, 2009 at 10:12pm
Wing Nut
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I was just reading up on it tonight and once again, I was amazed by the battle. And once again, I have to hand it to you Brits. You guys sure know how to throw a good battle. The Hood and the Bismark, Battle of Britain, Hastings... All throughout history, Britain seems to have a little habit of turning things on it's ear during a war. The French and Spain lost (I think) 22 ships at Trafalgar to Britain's 0 lost.
As I understand it, Nelson's tactics were a bit unorthodox for the time. I'm not informed on naval tactics.
The only American sea battle I can think of that compares is Midway...
There's no real point here, I just wanted to see if we could spark a decent discussion.
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Reply #1 -
May 15
th
, 2009 at 1:36am
Webb
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The Spanish Armada
England's abysmal weather saves it from yet another invader.
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Reply #2 -
May 15
th
, 2009 at 3:52am
Hagar
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Wing Nut wrote
on May 14
th
, 2009 at 10:12pm:
And once again, I have to hand it to you Brits. You guys sure know how to throw a good battle. The Hood and the Bismark, Battle of Britain, Hastings... All throughout history, Britain seems to have a little habit of turning things on it's ear during a war.
Not sure I would agree with that. Trafalgar was indeed a great tactical victory but the Bismarck sank HMS Hood (pride of the Royal Navy & flagship of the Home Fleet) with a terrible loss of life. Only 3 of the 1418 crew survived. The new battleship HMS Prince of Wales was severely damaged in the same action. King Harold lost the Battle of Hastings in 1066, the last time that Britain was successfully invaded.
In WWI the Battle of Jutland (1916) was arguably the largest naval battle in history. It was regarded as a failure in Britain at the time & historians still argue about it. The German Navy, with a 99-strong fleet, sank 115,000 tons of British ships, while a 151-strong British fleet sank 62,000 tons of German ships. However, it was effective in that the German High Seas Fleet never put to sea again.
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Reply #3 -
May 15
th
, 2009 at 3:58am
Wing Nut
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There I go talking out of my a$$ again...
What I meant by the Bismarck and the Hood was not that the Hood won, but the intense hunt and battle that ensued from that.
About Hastings, I was just plain wrong, I guess...
Kevin (who is now about to go read up on his British history)
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Reply #4 -
May 15
th
, 2009 at 4:10am
Hagar
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Wing Nut wrote
on May 15
th
, 2009 at 3:58am:
Hagar wrote
on May 15
th
, 2009 at 3:52am:
Wing Nut wrote
on May 14
th
, 2009 at 10:12pm:
And once again, I have to hand it to you Brits. You guys sure know how to throw a good battle. The Hood and the Bismark, Battle of Britain, Hastings... All throughout history, Britain seems to have a little habit of turning things on it's ear during a war.
Not sure I would agree with that. Trafalgar was indeed a great tactical victory but the Bismarck sank HMS Hood (pride of the Royal Navy & flagship of the Home Fleet) with a terrible loss of life. Only 3 of the 1418 crew survived. The new battleship HMS Prince of Wales was severely damaged in the same action.
There I go talking out of my a$$ again...
What I meant by the Bismarck and the Hood was not that the Hood won, but the intense hunt and Battle that ensued from that.
Like a lot of things in wartime I think that was more a matter of luck than anything else. The Bismarck was sailing at reduced speed when a torpedo dropped by one of the Swordfish from HMS Ark Royal damaged her rudder. After that she was done for. Sailing in circles at 8 knots. The Royal Navy wanted revenge for the sinking of HMS Hood & when they eventually caught the Bismarck it was terrible indeed. Out of her crew of 2,200, there were only 115 survivors.
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/bismarck/history/bisfataltorpedohit.html
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Reply #5 -
May 15
th
, 2009 at 4:18am
Wing Nut
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As I recall, the Bismarck did not go down quietly. First, they were attacking the pride of the German Navy with planes that were obsolete before the war even started, then the ship was chased and pounded for something like three days before she went down...
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Reply #6 -
May 15
th
, 2009 at 4:22am
Hagar
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Wing Nut wrote
on May 15
th
, 2009 at 4:18am:
As I recall, the Bismarck did not go down quietly. First, they were attacking the pride of the German Navy with planes that were obsolete before the war even started, then the ship was chased and pounded for something like three days before she went down...
Read the detailed account of the Battle of the Denmark Strait from my link. It covers several pages.
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/bismarck/history/bisfirstcontact.html
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Reply #7 -
May 15
th
, 2009 at 11:27am
H
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Hagar wrote
on May 15
th
, 2009 at 3:52am:
King Harold lost the Battle of Hastings in 1066, the last time that Britain was successfully invaded.
The relationship here, and that somewhat distant, is the common Germanic ancestry: the Normans were descendants of vikings (the horde of Rollo, if I remember), Norse cousins of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes (name still reflected in the Jutland penninsula). As to that being the last successful invasion (remember, also, that Harold's army had just made a full march to Hastings after defeating another army of Norse cousins), it's the reason the Nazi's wanted the Bayeaux Tapestry -- a woven depiction of the battle -- in their attempt at another Germanic invasion. Maybe there's a connection here to 'bloody' having been a favorite British byline adjective.
They didn't win all their naval battles in the days of the tall ships, either. During the War of 1812 (by name only) an entire naval squadron surrendered on September 10, 1813, at the Battle of Lake Erie. I know the British frigates Guerriere and Java were lost to the USS Constitution (Old Ironsides) but there is a humorous story (perhaps that only) about the Constitution. It set sail with full compliments of cannon shot, black powder, food, rum and 38,600 gallons of fresh drinking water; it successfully engaged 17 British ships, only salvaging rum. When it arrived back at port, it had no cannon shot, no black powder, no food, no rum but did have 38,600 gallons of stagnant drinking water.
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Reply #8 -
May 16
th
, 2009 at 8:32am
Hagar
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H wrote
on May 15
th
, 2009 at 11:27am:
Hagar wrote
on May 15
th
, 2009 at 3:52am:
King Harold lost the Battle of Hastings in 1066, the last time that Britain was successfully invaded.
The relationship here, and that somewhat distant, is the common Germanic ancestry: the Normans were descendants of vikings (the horde of Rollo, if I remember), Norse cousins of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes (name still reflected in the Jutland penninsula). As to that being the last successful invasion (remember, also, that Harold's army had just made a full march to Hastings after defeating another army of Norse cousins), it's the reason the Nazi's wanted the Bayeaux Tapestry -- a woven depiction of the battle -- in their attempt at another Germanic invasion.
You certainly know your history. I'll give you that.
Quote:
Maybe there's a connection here to 'bloody' having been a favorite British byline adjective.
Your line of thought is a tad too obscure for me.
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Reply #9 -
May 16
th
, 2009 at 9:12am
H
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Hagar wrote
on May 16
th
, 2009 at 8:32am:
Quote:
Maybe there's a connection here to 'bloody' having been a favorite British byline adjective.
Your line of thought is a tad too obscure for me.
You want it more graphic to prove my point? How bloody British of you...
and my history's not so exhaustive that I could ever list the many battles in which the British engaged.
Zulus? Well, Victoria, the African soil was surely bloody.
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Last Edit: Aug 18
th
, 2009 at 12:19pm by H
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Reply #10 -
May 16
th
, 2009 at 9:21am
Hagar
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H wrote
on May 16
th
, 2009 at 9:12am:
Hagar wrote
on May 16
th
, 2009 at 8:32am:
Quote:
Maybe there's a connection here to 'bloody' having been a favorite British byline adjective.
Your line of thought is a tad too obscure for me.
You want it more graphic to prove my point? How bloody British of you...
and my history's not so exhaustive that I could ever list the many battles in which the British engaged.
Zulus? Well, Victoria, the African soil was surely bloodied.
There are various theories on the origin of the word bloody as a mild expletive. I don't think it goes anywhere near as far back as the Saxons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody
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Reply #11 -
May 16
th
, 2009 at 9:56am
H
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Hagar wrote
on May 16
th
, 2009 at 9:21am:
There are various theories on the origin of the word bloody as a mild expletive. I don't think it goes anywhere near as far back as the Saxons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody
I wasn't speaking so much of the bloody usage origin as the bloody spillage...
but thank you for putting me on the hate list...
Aitch
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Reply #12 -
May 16
th
, 2009 at 12:55pm
aussiewannabe
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H wrote
on May 16
th
, 2009 at 9:12am:
You want it more graphic to prove my point? How bloody British of you...
and my history's not so exhaustive that I could ever list the many battles in which the British engaged.
Zulus? Well, Victoria, the African soil was surely bloodied.
As I recall from a book I read in a British History graduate course, the British engaged in over 200 battles.
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Reply #13 -
May 16
th
, 2009 at 1:07pm
H
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aussiewannabe wrote
on May 16
th
, 2009 at 12:55pm:
As I recall from a book I read in a British History graduate course, the British engaged in over 200 battles.
The rest were just physical arguments...
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Reply #14 -
May 16
th
, 2009 at 1:17pm
Hagar
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aussiewannabe wrote
on May 16
th
, 2009 at 12:55pm:
As I recall from a book I read in a British History graduate course, the British engaged in over 200 battles.
I'm not qualified to argue with a History graduate but that doesn't seem very many. Depends on the criteria & what you consider a battle I suppose.
This site lists some important battles from Hastings (1066) up to the Second Boer War (1899 to 1901).
http://www.britishbattles.com/
It doesn't include WWI, WWII or any other conflicts in the last century.
Note that a lot of these involve English rather than British forces as they took place before Great Britain came into being.
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