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US101 Cancelled... (Read 1030 times)

Apr 7^th, 2009 at 11:55am

C Offline
Colonel
Earth

Posts: 13144

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7986627.stm

F22 Production to cease too along with the VH-71/(AW)US-101. I'm sure economic conditions will be used as the reason, but one can't help thinking it will more than happily satisfy the xenophobic elements in the States who protested against a presidential helicopter whose airframe produced by "aliens", and were concerned that F-22 may be exported. In the case of the VH-71 it seems a little odd, as I'm sure most of the airframes have already been built if not exported to the USA already!

To be fair, the writing was on the wall for an export F-22 last month when the new F-15 variant was announced.

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Reply #1 - Apr 7^th, 2009 at 9:56pm

Mobius Offline
Colonel
Highest Point in the Lightning
Storm
Wisconsin

Posts: 4369

"Wow" is about all I should say... Undecided

Undecided

Let's just hope
things change
...

There, I've gone over the line...

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Reply #2 - Apr 8^th, 2009 at 4:46am

C Offline
Colonel
Earth

Posts: 13144

Mobius wrote on Apr 7^th, 2009 at 9:56pm:

"Wow" is about all I should say... Undecided

Undecided

Let's just hope
things change
...

There, I've gone over the line...

I'm surprised that they aren't giving the USAF the full run of the F-22, although some team of strategists somewhere obviously believe they can sustain the front line force for as long as necessary. After USAF production was complete, I wouldn't have been surprised if they'd closed the line to ensure no one in future could sell an export variant to "the usual customers" (ie, those who operate the F-15 as an export variant - Saudi Arabia, Israel, Japan, S. Korea), particularly with the argument over sensitive information, even within the partner nations of the JSF/JCA project.

In one fell swoop they've created an order book for the F-15SE.

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Reply #3 - Apr 8^th, 2009 at 6:00am

ShaneG Offline
Colonel
I turned into a Martian!

Posts: 10000

Sounds like someone isn't very happy with Lockheed Martin. Undecided

Undecided

That or they feel like the JSF can fill any gaps left by the F-22. Could be a smart financial call in the end.

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Reply #4 - Apr 8^th, 2009 at 10:55am

RitterKreuz Offline
Colonel
Texas

Gender:
Posts: 1253

personally i think xenophobia has little to do with it.

you have to look at things strategically.

if sh*t hits the fan... i want military goods built in the United States - because the United States is not going to Embargo the United States.

however, get into a war with someone and the country that produces your war materials doesnt agree with your point of view... guess what?

parts for your helicopters and fighter jets just got scarce Undecided

Undecided

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Reply #5 - Apr 8^th, 2009 at 12:55pm

C Offline
Colonel
Earth

Posts: 13144

RitterKreuz wrote on Apr 8^th, 2009 at 10:55am:

personally i think xenophobia has little to do with it.

you have to look at things strategically.

if sh*t hits the fan... i want military goods built in the United States - because the United States is not going to Embargo the United States.

You seriously think the UK (or Italy) would ever embargo the US? Not to mention you'd already received a third of the basic airframes from (Agusta)Westland in the UK anyway.

I was thinking along Shane's lines, but then again JSF is also an LM product. Having said that, of course the cancelled KC-45 was also LM, and although European in design, was to be made in the States.

It'll be a change for us you look at some of the US forces equipment without turning a shade of green as we do nowadays! Grin

Grin

Wink

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Reply #6 - Apr 8^th, 2009 at 7:42pm

Mobius Offline
Colonel
Highest Point in the Lightning
Storm
Wisconsin

Posts: 4369

It'll be interesting to see what the happens with the Air Force in the next few years. Their entire fighter fleet (other than the F-15E and the Raptors) are approaching their service lives and now that the Raptor is being cut back, they're either betting the show on the F-35, or they're becoming more of a support force instead of a front-line force. Personally, I think it's the latter - they haven't even been giving out fighter slots to anyone anymore, even the guys that tracked through the T-38s to get to fighters, they're all getting the UAV slots and aircraft like the AF version of the PC-12. It seems the AF is delegating it's fighter duties to the Air National Guard, which makes up only 35% of the AF fighter force right now, but it's also the only way for pilots entering the AF to hope to get a fighter slot. That or join the Navy, they're just switching everything other than SAR and mail delivery the the Super Hornets.

Still, if the Air Force replaces it's numbers with the F-35, there's going to be a lot of pilots that are too old to train into it and they'll be desperate for pilots again. Also, if the Air Force gets only 187 Raptors, the F-35 will have to be good enough or numerous enough to pick up the slack of losing a good number of the best air weapon there is.

Good news though, my local ANG squadron here in Madison is ranked as one of the best in the nation, so apparently the news is they will be one of the first units to get delivery of the F-35 when that happens. Cool

Cool

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Reply #7 - Apr 9^th, 2009 at 1:15am

flyboy 28 Offline
Colonel
Jacksonville, FL

Posts: 13323

Good thing everything's still floating along with the navy. Tongue

Tongue

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Reply #8 - Apr 9^th, 2009 at 10:01pm

AMDDDA Offline
Colonel

Posts: 1002

ShaneG wrote on Apr 8^th, 2009 at 6:00am:

Sounds like someone isn't very happy with Lockheed Martin. Undecided

Undecided

That or they feel like the JSF can fill any gaps left by the F-22. Could be a smart financial call in the end.

F-4's can out turn JSF's, the JSF only has one thing going for it: stealth.

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Reply #9 - Apr 13^th, 2009 at 7:27am

flavio Offline
Colonel
USA

Posts: 157

Mobius wrote on Apr 8^th, 2009 at 7:42pm:

It'll be interesting to see what the happens with the Air Force in the next few years. Their entire fighter fleet (other than the F-15E and the Raptors) are approaching their service lives and now that the Raptor is being cut back, they're either betting the show on the F-35, or they're becoming more of a support force instead of a front-line force. Personally, I think it's the latter - they haven't even been giving out fighter slots to anyone anymore, even the guys that tracked through the T-38s to get to fighters, they're all getting the UAV slots and aircraft like the AF version of the PC-12. It seems the AF is delegating it's fighter duties to the Air National Guard, which makes up only 35% of the AF fighter force right now, but it's also the only way for pilots entering the AF to hope to get a fighter slot. That or join the Navy, they're just switching everything other than SAR and mail delivery the the Super Hornets.

Still, if the Air Force replaces it's numbers with the F-35, there's going to be a lot of pilots that are too old to train into it and they'll be desperate for pilots again. Also, if the Air Force gets only 187 Raptors, the F-35 will have to be good enough or numerous enough to pick up the slack of losing a good number of the best air weapon there is.

Good news though, my local ANG squadron here in Madison is ranked as one of the best in the nation, so apparently the news is they will be one of the first units to get delivery of the F-35 when that happens. Cool

Cool

long time no talk buddy! how is everything?

im kinda hoping we get through upt by the time f-35s are up and running and theyre hiring. because other then that, like you said, we'll be sitting in a trailor in arizona flying plastic airplanes lol.

in a more serious note, if i dont make my first USAF board, i might apply USAF and NAVY second time around.

Anyways, kind of sad to see our intended line of work go out like that. I do hope people realize that in order to accomplish anything with a military you must own the skies

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Reply #10 - Apr 13^th, 2009 at 8:47am

OVERLORD_CHRIS Offline
Colonel
No C-17B's, C-5M's for
Every One!
Chalreston SC

Gender:
Posts: 1148

So they cancel the $140 million F-22 for the $200+million F-35, that makes perfect since. Especial since Japan has asked more then once to get permission to buy the F-22 for the JASDF, witch would make the cost go down per unit, and if it did the UK had already expressed interest in buying some also, witch would drive it down even more, meaning the USAF would be able to get closer to the 300+ units they want if the price were only $90-100 million a unit.
***Still like how Gates has said the Raptor is not combat proven, but it is by his decree that Raptors are not allowed to be sent into combat, a good way to justifies not buying more cold war relics as he puts it***

And the good thing is, The president is not a mechanic and does not understand metal fatigue from years of flying around a heavily modified chopper with EMP shielding, laser defense, flares, chaff, triple the sound deadening, NBC proofing, and the tons of other extra stuff that would allow the Commander In Chief to stay in contacted with any one at any time while flying. So Far 3 VH-71's delivered, 4th on the way, the 5th is paid for and should be being built also.

Pilots go down, and the Search and Rescue will now have to drive out to them...or Call the British since they do have the EH101, to pick them up Tongue

Tongue

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Reply #11 - Apr 13^th, 2009 at 11:44am

C Offline
Colonel
Earth

Posts: 13144

OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote on Apr 13^th, 2009 at 8:47am:

So they cancel the $140 million F-22 for the $200+million F-35, that makes perfect since. Especial since Japan has asked more then once to get permission to buy the F-22 for the JASDF, witch would make the cost go down per unit, and if it did the UK had already expressed interest in buying some also, witch would drive it down even more

The UK never expressed an interest in the F-22 (we could never afford it, particularly alongside the £75m/unit Eurofighter) - it is only a partner in the F-35 programme. I suspect the only serious export interest would have been from current F-15 operators, namely Japan, Israel, South Korea and Saudi Arabia. Selling the F-22 to any of these nations would be politically and diplomatically suicidal in the current world climate.

Quote:

***Still like how Gates has said the Raptor is not combat proven, but it is by his decree that Raptors are not allowed to be sent into combat, a good way to justifies not buying more cold war relics as he puts it***

To be honest, at the moment there's more than capable legacy aircraft available to support current operations in the punishing conditions of the middle east. There'd be little point wasted F-22 life and potentially expose the aircraft to unnecessary exposure to less than desirable sources in an operation where it's most potent specialities are not required.

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Reply #12 - Apr 13^th, 2009 at 11:49am

a1 Offline
Colonel
Tied In A Knot I Am

Gender:
Posts: 8217

Well at lease the newer F-15 will take the place of the F-22 for now. In my mind i think we need an advance fighter like the F-22.

790i : QX9650 : 4Gb DDR3 : GeForce 8800 GTX : 1 WD Raptor : 1 WD VelociRaptor 150

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Reply #13 - Apr 13^th, 2009 at 5:48pm

AMDDDA Offline
Colonel

Posts: 1002

a1 wrote on Apr 13^th, 2009 at 11:49am:

Well at lease the newer F-15 will take the place of the F-22 for now. In my mind i think we need an advance fighter like the F-22.

Nope, the USAF isn't buying the F-15 SE, they're just going to go with what they have until the under-performing F-35's arrive.

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Reply #14 - Apr 13^th, 2009 at 10:35pm

Mobius Offline
Colonel
Highest Point in the Lightning
Storm
Wisconsin

Posts: 4369

flavio wrote on Apr 13^th, 2009 at 7:27am:

Mobius wrote on Apr 8^th, 2009 at 7:42pm:

It'll be interesting to see what the happens with the Air Force in the next few years. Their entire fighter fleet (other than the F-15E and the Raptors) are approaching their service lives and now that the Raptor is being cut back, they're either betting the show on the F-35, or they're becoming more of a support force instead of a front-line force. Personally, I think it's the latter - they haven't even been giving out fighter slots to anyone anymore, even the guys that tracked through the T-38s to get to fighters, they're all getting the UAV slots and aircraft like the AF version of the PC-12. It seems the AF is delegating it's fighter duties to the Air National Guard, which makes up only 35% of the AF fighter force right now, but it's also the only way for pilots entering the AF to hope to get a fighter slot. That or join the Navy, they're just switching everything other than SAR and mail delivery the the Super Hornets.

Still, if the Air Force replaces it's numbers with the F-35, there's going to be a lot of pilots that are too old to train into it and they'll be desperate for pilots again. Also, if the Air Force gets only 187 Raptors, the F-35 will have to be good enough or numerous enough to pick up the slack of losing a good number of the best air weapon there is.

Good news though, my local ANG squadron here in Madison is ranked as one of the best in the nation, so apparently the news is they will be one of the first units to get delivery of the F-35 when that happens. Cool

Cool

long time no talk buddy! how is everything?

im kinda hoping we get through upt by the time f-35s are up and running and theyre hiring. because other then that, like you said, we'll be sitting in a trailor in arizona flying plastic airplanes lol.

in a more serious note, if i dont make my first USAF board, i might apply USAF and NAVY second time around.

Anyways, kind of sad to see our intended line of work go out like that. I do hope people realize that in order to accomplish anything with a military you must own the skies

Not bad, how's everything going with you?

I had LASIK a little over a month ago and it's awesome and I finally got word from my (new) recruiter that my flight physical came back with everything looking good other than what the LASIK took care of. So sometime in June or July I have to go back and do the physical again so I can reapply.

I've been seriously contemplating joining the local ANG squadron here in Madison. That way, I would be guaranteed an F-16 slot no matter what happened through UPT and IFF as long as I didn't wash out. Then when the F-35's come in, I would be able to switch into those. Only problem is I would still need a real job and career and I could kiss AF Test Pilot School goodbye, but it's not like you could get there flying UAV's as an active duty pilot. Also, they only select between 0 and 1 pilot per year, so it's even harder to get than an active duty slot. Tongue

Tongue

So much fun. Tongue

Tongue

Wink

How about you, are you still planning on the 10-01 board?

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Reply #15 - Apr 14^th, 2009 at 2:12pm

OVERLORD_CHRIS Offline
Colonel
No C-17B's, C-5M's for
Every One!
Chalreston SC

Gender:
Posts: 1148

C wrote on Apr 13^th, 2009 at 11:44am:

OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote on Apr 13^th, 2009 at 8:47am:

So they cancel the $140 million F-22 for the $200+million F-35, that makes perfect since. Especial since Japan has asked more then once to get permission to buy the F-22 for the JASDF, witch would make the cost go down per unit, and if it did the UK had already expressed interest in buying some also, witch would drive it down even more

The UK never expressed an interest in the F-22 (we could never afford it, particularly alongside the £75m/unit Eurofighter) - it is only a partner in the F-35 programme. I suspect the only serious export interest would have been from current F-15 operators, namely Japan, Israel, South Korea and Saudi Arabia. Selling the F-22 to any of these nations would be politically and diplomatically suicidal in the current world climate.

Quote:

***Still like how Gates has said the Raptor is not combat proven, but it is by his decree that Raptors are not allowed to be sent into combat, a good way to justifies not buying more cold war relics as he puts it***

To be honest, at the moment there's more than capable legacy aircraft available to support current operations in the punishing conditions of the middle east. There'd be little point wasted F-22 life and potentially expose the aircraft to unnecessary exposure to less than desirable sources in an operation where it's most potent specialities are not required.

This was years ago that the UK was looking into the F-22, before the first Euro Fighter even flew, and the USAF took delivery of there first F-22, back when it was supposed to be the F/A-22. but the MoD eventually just waited it out for the Euro Fighter.

As far as taking it into combat, it is designed for combat as a combat aircraft, and the commanders wanted to bring it over there to get what ever bugs worked out right away, rather then years from now when it has to, and they don't have the luxury of being able to send it back and fix what ever might have arisen.

Much like the C-17, first it was to expensive to buy and they could not justify its use when the C-141B and C's were still able to fly into hostile places fine. But the moment they started using it for its intended purpose, we had to do quick modifications for the stuff that ended up arising from actually using it in combat situations. And as a result every thing produced from 2002 on has the mods built in, and every one benefits, while the older planes are modded.

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Reply #16 - May 2^nd, 2009 at 1:18am

OVERLORD_CHRIS Offline
Colonel
No C-17B's, C-5M's for
Every One!
Chalreston SC

Gender:
Posts: 1148

Quote:

May 1, 2009

By Andy Nativi

Stung by criticism in Washington over the VH-71 presidential helicopter program that U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates wants to scrap and reassess, AgustaWestland is firing back and arguing, essentially, that there is no reason to start all over.

Rather than junking the Increment 1 helos, which the Pentagon says only have 5-10 years of useful life and are therefore not worth fielding, AgustaWestland argues that the rotorcraft, with some certification activities, can be validated for at least 10,000 hours of useful life, not the 1,500 specified by the Navy. The baseline AW101 aircraft is already certified for that flight time.

Moreover, with about $3.3 billion already sunk into the program, AgustaWestland argues it can deliver 19 more Increment 1 variants for another $3.5 billion.

The total would roughly equal the original VH-71 program budget before costs more than doubled as requirements grew and the program raced ahead.

The helo maker further is floating the idea of building an upgraded version, a so-called Increment 1.5, which would be close to meeting the full program requirements but below the $13 billion price tag the program has now reached.

Meanwhile, AgustaWestland has delivered the fifth pilot-production VH-71 from its Yeovil, U.K., production facility.

Chief Executive Officer Giuseppe Orsi says that while program costs have doubled, the helicopter’s portion is only a comparatively modest 8 percent over plan and six months behind schedule, which he attributes to 50 major and 800 other design changes.

AgustaWestland on April 28 finished delivery of Increment 1, with the last of nine VH-71s now bound for completion with integrator Lockheed Martin (Aerospace DAILY, April 29).

Some updates.

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Reply #17 - May 2^nd, 2009 at 4:29am

C Offline
Colonel
Earth

Posts: 13144

Interesting. I wonder what the outcome will be - take the chosen helicopter with the airframe supplier offering to match the original budget price, or start the programme all over again? Huh

Huh

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Reply #18 - May 2^nd, 2009 at 8:53pm

Al_Fallujah Ex Member

flyboy 28 wrote on Apr 9^th, 2009 at 1:15am:

Good thing everything's still floating along with the navy. Tongue

Tongue

For now...

Standby for a small fleet to be sent to the mothballs, or for a few CVN's to be retired and not replaced.

Its coming.

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Reply #19 - Jun 2^nd, 2009 at 9:34pm

OVERLORD_CHRIS Offline
Colonel
No C-17B's, C-5M's for
Every One!
Chalreston SC

Gender:
Posts: 1148

Quote:

Navy Officially Terminates VH-71

Jun 2, 2009

The Department of Defense and U.S. Naval Air Systems Command announced the official cancellation of the VH-71 Presidential Helicopter program late Monday.

Earlier that afternoon, a brief appeared and then was removed from NAVAIR's website announcing the cancellation. The link to the announcement was broken, however, and calls to Navy Public Affairs went unanswered.

Hours later, both the Department of Defense and NAVAIR issued official word that the program has been formally terminated with Lockheed Martin Systems Integration in Owego, N.Y. The company was awarded the program in January 2005, and has delivered eight Increment One aircraft to the Navy. A ninth is being flown by Lockheed for testing.

A program acquisition decision memorandum was issued May 15, 2009, directing the cancellation of the program. That decision, according to NAVAIR's statement "resulted from cost growth in the VH-71 program that breached Nunn-McCurdy thresholds."

The Pentagon's new acquisitions chief, Ashton Carter, has asked the Navy to develop options for a replacement helicopter and present those to his office. The President's budget for fiscal 2010 contains funds for service life extension of the current VH-60N/VH-3D fleet. Termination costs are unknown at this time, and Lockheed has a full year to submit a proposal for a settlement.

Bettina H. Chavanne chavanne@aviationweek.com
AviationWeek.com

I wander what they are going to do with the 5 they already paid for and have? Those still work, and should be painted by now, except for the 5th one.

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