Simviation Forum - Decisions...Decisions

Apr 5^th, 2009 at 3:05pm

Flying Trucker Offline
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Good afternoon all...

The old girl and I are moving out of the old homestead in the very near future as this home will go to our eldest son and his family. That is the way it has always been so we will not be able to go aviating whenever we want.

What I want to do is have a more realistic flight simulator than what I have now. Not interested in flying jet fighters and airliners but more in line with twin engine and single engine bush and float flying aircraft.

There is no rush to purchase as I prefer to do that after we move and get settled in.

Could I please get opinions on several of these products?

Saitek:
Yoke with throttles for multi engine and rudder controls.
$149.95 US Dollars $119.95 US Dollars
Could not find a separate price for Saiteks throttles so I do believe they are included with the yoke at $149.95 and that is for six (6) levers.

CH Products:
Two (2) yokes available at $249.95 and $149.95 US Dollars.
The problem I saw with these units is they already had three (3) levers on the top right of the unit. Not realistic placement and not very realistic for a twin engine aircraft.

Throttle unit $179.95 US Dollars.

Rudder Controls $149.95 US Dollars.

Elite:
Pro Panel SE.......$1495.00
Rudder Controls..$ 695.00
Avionics Stack....$3118.00 & there are several different options and
prices
OR:
P1-121 complete unit for $4495.00 US Dollars
I do believe that includes everything but a monitor and CPU.
Would anyone here use Elite products and would anyone have this unit as I would like to hear more about it.

Precision Flight Console:
C-2..........$3995.00
Rudders....$1995.00
Avionics....$2495.00
Total.........$8485.00 US Dollars
Very nice looking unit but again I know nothing about this company and their products so any comments would be most appreciated.

These prices were taken off the internet today and I realize there is US Tax and Custom Fees to be include also.

I looked at several other units however being the cost of a single engine light aircraft and without motion I would not even consider them.

There are also several good motion chairs on the market now and if anyone has a comment or knows about them I would like to hear it.

I would also like to know what folks think about mixing and matching different products from different companies such as Elite and Saitek or whoever.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers...Happy Landings...Doug

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Reply #1 - Apr 5^th, 2009 at 5:19pm

pengyman89 Offline
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you are given one throttle quadrant (3 levers) with the saitek yoke. however, you can purchase the throttle quadrant by itself to get another 3 levers and mount them side by side.

CM690&&Intel e8400 @3.937Ghz&&2GB Patriot PC2-6400 DDR2-800Mhz @ 875Mhz 5-5-5-16&&250GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive + Seagate 640GB&&Windows XP Media Center -32bit&&eVGA 8800GT 512MB&&Antec Truepower Trio 650W&&LG W2252TQ 22" LCD

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Reply #2 - Apr 6^th, 2009 at 7:08am

Flying Trucker Offline
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Yes I see what you are saying and I was wondering how realistic they look when you do that.

Are the top of the levers all the same height when you mount to the right side the throttle unit to the yoke unit?

Thanks for your input pengyman89.

Cheers...Happy Landings...Doug

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Reply #3 - Apr 6^th, 2009 at 8:00pm

Brett_Henderson Offline
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Hi Doug..

As you're aware (as it applies to just about any hobby).. the two questions are always:

1) What level of realism are you looking for ?
2) How much are you willing to spend ?

The products you list cover both of those spectrums, fully. So I'd be inclined to ask, both questions.

Before you answer, I'll add that, for health reasons, I fully expect to be grounded in less than 2 years... and have pondered what level of simming I'd end up with as a substitute. Even if it's just a reduction in how much you fly for real, and you apply those resources to a computer and control hardware.. you're talking about VERY high-end equipment. I've always kept my simming budget pretty tame ($1,500 -$2,500 per year.. for both computer upgrades, and hardware like yokes and such).. and realize that I regularly spend twice that much in just one month of real flying. Using that logic, I'll probably go all out when I hang up my wings.. maybe even build a sim-pit.

On that note.. you should check out that section of the forum

ANYway.. Like anything else, the foundation is most important. The best control hardware will be useless, if the PC struggles to run the simulator software. If you're not up to building that computer.. or don't have someone you trust to do it... that in itself will be a several thousand dollar purchase. Then it gets back to the original, two questions.

And.. even before settling those.. I'd want to ask if this computer will be dedicated for simming ? Or a general use computer too ? If it's dedicated.. something like the Saitek yoke/pedals, and an extra throttle-quadrant can be mounted and modified into a very realistic setup. If on the other hand, you'll be constantly attaching/dettaching it all from a desktop, you might just wanna settle for the CH setup, even though you'll have to control both sets engine functions, as one (only 3 levers). The other high-end hardware you touched on, pretty much dictates that it will be a dedicated simming computer.

OK.. enough of my blathering (I just wanted to mention all that stuff). I'll tell you what I'D do, if I had to make the decision today..

I'd go with all CH stuff. It's reasonably priced, and easily modified.

The six-lever throttle quadrant frees up the three levers on the yoke for things like cowl-flaps or carb heat Cool

. Throw in the rudder pedals and you're all set for even DC-3 type ops

But this just reminds me how important a good computer becomes. It would be aggravating to be saving those expensive brakes by using the engines for suble taxi maneuvering when the screen get's all jumpy jerky during a turn on a ramp crowded with other aircraft and lotsa detailed scenery Cheesy

The whole effort of precisely manipulating the two throttles becomes pointless when the screen freezes for a second and starts back up again AFTER you've turned too far.. Tongue

That's probably as far as I'd take it. Flying from one monitor and using a VC covers most of the other stuff. I'm not inclined to think I'd appreciate multiple monitors.. for side views and/or other panel views. I'd probably invest in a generic switch/knob console though,.. for basic stuff like mags, batteries, generators, lights, and pitot-heat.. but that might be pushing it. I'm happy controlling those from the VC, or from the keyboard.

Now of course, if you ask me a year from now.. when I really am facing being grounded.. I might be building a $10,000 sim-pit with 3 computers and 5 monitors Roll Eyes

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Reply #4 - Apr 7^th, 2009 at 1:17am

homebrewer Offline
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Hello! I'm using FS9 and
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Grounded, Brett? Care to elaborate?

My system: AMD Phenom 9500 cpu, 2 x eVGA e-GeForce 8800GTS Superclocked vidcards (640Mb DDR3 each), Zalman "sunflower" 9700 fan, Gigabyte GA-M57SLI-S4 mobo, 4Gb G.Skill PC2-6400 DDR2 800Mhz RAM, 2 x Sony 20X DVD writers, Thermaltake Toughpower 850W modular p/s, 7 x 120mm fans, Windows XP Home and SP3, 2 x 250Gb Western Digital SATA-300 HDs (1 for apps, 1 for storage and precious files backup), CoolerMaster CM 690 case, NOD-32. Won't run FSX. Locks up a lot with FS9, too.

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Reply #5 - Apr 7^th, 2009 at 6:21am

Brett_Henderson Offline
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homebrewer wrote on Apr 7^th, 2009 at 1:17am:

Grounded, Brett? Care to elaborate?

Just preparing myself

Blood pressure, and blood sugar problems are in my genes, I just passed 50.. medication will probably come soon... i'm not willing to jump through the medical/legal hoops needed, to keep a medical certificate, while on that type of medication. Lips Sealed

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Reply #6 - Apr 7^th, 2009 at 8:07pm

olderndirt Offline
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Rochester, WA

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Brett
Know the feeling. My job-mandated second class lasted only as long as the job. Next physical, with a real MD rather than an FAA flight surgeon, was the beginning of the end. Third class for six months at a time becoming "be sure to have a qualified pilot with you".

THIS IS NOT A PANAM CLIPPER

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Reply #7 - Apr 7^th, 2009 at 8:12pm

Brett_Henderson Offline
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Hey.. maybe between the two us, it will make one, qualified pilot Cheesy

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Reply #8 - Apr 8^th, 2009 at 10:38am

olderndirt Offline
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Rochester, WA

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Yeah, you can have all the TO radials and I'll have the FROMS Roll Eyes

.

THIS IS NOT A PANAM CLIPPER

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Reply #9 - Apr 9^th, 2009 at 12:47pm

Flying Trucker Offline
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Good afternoon all...

Thanks for the feedback Brett.

The computer I use now was built for Vista and FSX and is a lot more than what is really required. That is all I use that computer for.

Several years ago I was going to have someone build me a simpit out of the front end of a Piper Apache. I didn't do it as I ran out of time doing volunteer work and I didn't want the thing down in the barn or the hangar and both are winterized. I wanted something in our home and the old girl and I were not ready to start taking out walls and now it is too late. I do manage to get into a C130 and a Boeing Simulator for several hours twice a year and having our own aircraft has spoilt me.

What I am looking for is realism when flying the simulator.

The old girl and I now both in our 70s do our Pilot Medicals every six months and our drivers test once a year. I am going to let my multi and instrument ratings lapse as I do not think I will ever buy another multi-engine aircraft again and what we pay out in check rides and medicals a year along with the time to do them is soon going to be a thing of the past. We both share great/good health and are very very active.

That is why I am interested in building a better flight simulator as the time will come soon I think when neither one of us will want to drive to an airport to go flying. Walking out your back door and jumping into one of your own aircraft has been wonderful for us and we log anywhere between three to five hours a week in our own aircraft and that is mostly all year round except when the field is two soft.

We are hoping flight simming (not sure that is even a word) Grin

will fill the gap.

Now a little off topic Brett but take a half a day and talk to a Hospital Dietician and I think you will be surprised as to what they can do especially with the basic food groups. We know avaitors from several of the flying clubs we visit who have diabetes and high blood pressure and a Dietician worked wonders for them.

Thanks for some input folks.

Cheers...Happy Landings...Doug

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Reply #10 - Apr 9^th, 2009 at 2:05pm

Brett_Henderson Offline
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Hi Doug..

I think you're probaly looking for the same things that I do, out of a simulator.. and will even moreso as time goes on.

I don't need a "pit", or an array of monitors (and the array of computers/graphic-cards that would call for). A good, large, widescreen monitor for now (and probably an actual HD TV in the 46" range eventually) is all I'd want.

I think the ergonomic hardware is the key. A good seat with controls placed appropriately, and of course, decent controls. The rest of it is all mental. When I start a simming session (for other than testing something), a good chunk of the realism starts before I even fire up the virtual engines. Flight planning, and real-world weather briefing.. getting all the charts and plates organized.. checking out the airports I will, or might be stopping at... ( www.airnav.com ). Carefully fueling .. virtual walk around.. checklist use.. etc...

Then, the flight itself is (to me), an excersize in discipline. Nail the speeds.. take care of the engine.. manage and conserve fuel ... and MOST important of all.. navigation and situation awareness.. and IFR flight by the book .. I never use the GPS, so I have my hands full with all those realistic, in flight chores. Tracking progress, and estimating the winds I've encountered.. and when I'm VFR on top (or IMC).. keeping track of my exact position by VOR/DME and even ADF triangulation.

A 3 hour, 400nm flight in this Mooney, in poor visibility and sneaky winds.. ending with a textbook, precision approach can be executed quite realistically with the hardware pictured. I'll I'd add, would be a decent, twin-engine throttle quadrant, and a bigger monitor.

The reason, I like the CH yoke, is that it's inexpensive enough to keep a few on hand.. very durable and reliable.. and easily modified (I've opened mine up and added springs to help center the elevator axis better, when it's hands off. It has springs that directly center the aileron axis, and then it relies on some lateral tension from them for elevator centering... it's just not enough). I've used and set up the more expensive yoke systems, but they really aren't that much better.

I suppose, that if/when I dedicate myself to simming even more.. I might get one of these: http://www.fspilotshop.com/product_info.php?products_id=1070#sreenshot_images .. but I've used these, and they aren't that much better, in flight, than the CH yoke.

Of course.. like I said.. I might go nutso, and spend un-told thousands on a pit. That in itself can be a hobby. Cheesy

(Thanks for the other advice

)

P.S.. did you see the photos from my recent mountian flight, in the photographs section ?

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Reply #11 - Apr 11^th, 2009 at 8:10am

Flying Trucker Offline
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Good morning all...

Great information Brett and thanks for the input.

What I would find interseting if I got the CH yoke with the six throttle unit I could use the top three levers on the yoke for something else.

Now I wonder if it is possible to use them for left and right carb heat or left and right cowl flaps leaving one lever for something else lets say for the Douglas DC3. When I look at the set up I have now it only shows one position for carb heat that can be programmed and the same for cowl flaps.
I like that idea you mentioned.

I am in no big rush and space will determine what I purchase, if we get a three bedroom condo which is what we are looking at then one room will be dedicated for this hobby and probably shared as library as well.

Will have a look shortly at your sim flight... Wink