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USAF Tanker Round 5: FIGHT!! (Read 1123 times)
Reply #15 - Jun 22nd, 2009 at 4:52am

OVERLORD_CHRIS   Offline
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expat wrote on May 20th, 2009 at 4:36am:
PAX, you mean self loading cargo Grin

Matt
You know it. Grin

Quote:
Tanker Teams Start Posturing for USAF Competition

Jun 19, 2009



Amy Butler/Paris

Both teams vying for a massive U.S. Air Force contract to build refueling tankers appear to be taking on a more collegial tenor as they await release of the Pentagon's requirements next month, but this newfound spirit could be the calm before the storm in a third attempt for the service to select a new design.

Boeing and Northrop Grumman/EADS North America engaged in a volley of assaults about their designs during the past two years, and last year Boeing was on the offensive against the U.S. Air Force customer after it selected the Airbus A330-tanker based design. Yet, last week both said they are open to a so-called "dual buy" of KC-135 replacements. This would call for parallel development of both platforms and a guaranteed minimum order. KC-X was originally proposed to procure 179 aircraft. Defense Secretary Robert Gates, however, is adamant that he wants a single winner, primarily to avoid paying for two developments, logistics and training efforts.

The Air Force's decision to award a $1.5-billion contract to the Northrop team was found by government auditors to be flawed after Boeing protested; this prompted the Pentagon's failed attempt last year to conduct a new duel between the companies. Gates halted the procurement in September and called for a "cooling off."

While both teams clearly took great pains to present a cool exterior in their media briefings here last week, neither was willing to commit to a protest-free process. In the last round, both contractors engaged in attempting to shape the request for proposals (RFP) that would drive metrics for the competition, and both at times threatened not to bid if the RFP wasn't favorable to their design.

The challenge is for the Pentagon to craft metrics to judge the attributes of dissimilar commercial platforms modified for military use.

Jim Albaugh, president of Boeing Integrated Defense Systems, unveiled the 7A7 concept during a briefing here last week. This leaves the door open to a large 777-200ER tanker or a smaller one derived from the 767 family. The "A" stands for "advanced," according to Dave Bowman, vice president of Boeing's tanker programs. The intent, he says, was to show the Air Force that the team would be flexible based on service needs. "We are not in a position to tell our customer what they want. . . . We are not RFP shaping at all." A new twist in Boeing's team was the appearance at the media briefing of Pat Shanahan, who oversees commercial aircraft programs; during the last competition, critics said Boeing's civil and military sectors weren't in lockstep on the tanker proposal. Shanahan, who is shepherding the delayed 787, says, "While the 787 may be the biggest program we have in commercial, tanker is equally important." It hasn't been decided whether a tanker would be built on the commercial line, with minor defense-specific modifications to follow, or if the commercial sector would simply hand over green aircraft to the military side. Despite poor performance on the 767-based tanker programs for Japan and Italy, Bowman points to lessons from efficiencies in the Navy's P-8 maritime patrol aircraft, a modified 737, as a model.

The challenge for Boeing will be to select the right platform and propose a plausible development plan based on a to-be-determined platform. The Northrop team, by contrast, is left to defend the merits of the A330-based option, which sits in the middle of the size spectrum of options.

Just how much development work has been done on these options is highly proprietary. The 777-based design could be delivered in "not exactly the same time [as a 767 design], but similar," Bowman says; company officials say they have not conducted wind tunnel tests of a 777 design. Boeing was previously docked for development risk because its design was based on components of various 767 aircraft wrapped into a single, new-designation aircraft.

Meanwhile, Boeing officials are eager to deliver to Italy its first 767-based tanker, which is late. "We have disappointed a very important customer," Bowman said.

Northrop Grumman's team, by contrast, is expected to stick with its A330-based proposal. Australia is the first customer, and the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia and the U.K. each have placed orders. Northrop Grumman is not the prime contractor in those deals.

Ralph Crosby, CEO of EADS North America, is rejecting a notion to conduct a "low-price, technically acceptable" (LPTA) competition; this calls for both entrants to qualify for threshold requirements and then engage in a price shoot-out. The larger A330 would be at a disadvantage. This LPTA model was proposed by outgoing Pentagon acquisition czar John Young last year; it is unclear whether the strategy has gained traction with his replacement, Ashton Carter.

"That works for pencils and tablets [but] it is a flawed concept" for a military system, Crosby said during a June 13 briefing here.

"The issue is what credit does one get for capability above the threshold?" he said. It would "be both injurious to the defense acquisition process and a damn bad thing for the . . . armed services." Boeing officials support an LPTA competition, which could favor a smaller platform.

"We don't know what it means," says Paul Meyer, Northrop's vice president for mobility system, noting price could refer simply to development pricing, procurement, life cycle or some combination.

He says 90-100 aircraft are needed in a dual-buy scenario to justify construction of an Airbus final assembly facility in Mobile, Ala., for the A330 platforms and a nearby Northrop Grumman plant to add the mission systems. The Airbus facility could also produce A330-200Fs and, at some point, assemble A350XWBs.

EADS is continuing testing on the first A330-200-based tanker for Australia, and Northrop Grumman is also testing components of the design it previously proposed to USAF in a ground-based systems integration laboratory.

www.AviationWeek.com ;

 

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Reply #16 - Jun 22nd, 2009 at 11:22am

ShaneG   Offline
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I'm a little confused on why this is such an issue. Huh

If the B-52 can be kept in service and relevant for over half a century now, why can't they just keep the Kc-135's flying?

It seems to me, that they are the B-52s of the refueling world, they've been around forever, and still get the job done.

And wouldn't it be cheaper to keep them flying, than to have to build an entirely new fleet of planes?  Isn't that why we have that huge complex of planes stored in the desert? Low cost, plentiful, spare parts?

  This whole 'contract' thing is nothing but an excuse to keep politicians & bureaucrats busy, and give lobbyists a reason to spend money.
 
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Reply #17 - Jun 22nd, 2009 at 2:18pm

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I assume they want something that can carry more and has a longer range.

But speaking of the boneyard, I hear that most of those planes can be ready for combat in 8 days.
 

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Reply #18 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 6:27am

OVERLORD_CHRIS   Offline
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ShaneG wrote on Jun 22nd, 2009 at 11:22am:
I'm a little confused on why this is such an issue. Huh

If the B-52 can be kept in service and relevant for over half a century now, why can't they just keep the Kc-135's flying?

It seems to me, that they are the B-52s of the refueling world, they've been around forever, and still get the job done.

And wouldn't it be cheaper to keep them flying, than to have to build an entirely new fleet of planes?  Isn't that why we have that huge complex of planes stored in the desert? Low cost, plentiful, spare parts?

 This whole 'contract' thing is nothing but an excuse to keep politicians & bureaucrats busy, and give lobbyists a reason to spend money.

That's because the B-52 does not fly all the time like the KC-135 does, it probably has twice the flying hours of the B-52 do to it triple mission capability.
 

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Reply #19 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 2:37pm

C   Offline
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OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote on Jun 23rd, 2009 at 6:27am:
ShaneG wrote on Jun 22nd, 2009 at 11:22am:
I'm a little confused on why this is such an issue. Huh

If the B-52 can be kept in service and relevant for over half a century now, why can't they just keep the Kc-135's flying?

It seems to me, that they are the B-52s of the refueling world, they've been around forever, and still get the job done.

And wouldn't it be cheaper to keep them flying, than to have to build an entirely new fleet of planes?  Isn't that why we have that huge complex of planes stored in the desert? Low cost, plentiful, spare parts?

 This whole 'contract' thing is nothing but an excuse to keep politicians & bureaucrats busy, and give lobbyists a reason to spend money.

That's because the B-52 does not fly all the time like the KC-135 does, it probably has twice the flying hours of the B-52 do to it triple mission capability.


Quite. I suspect the B-52 fleet doesn't come anywhere close to the level of 24-7 operations the 135 fleet does over Iraq and the Stan. Speaking to some of the 135 guys out in the desert, they're really looking forward to a new aeroplane, particularly the ground crews by the sounds of things. However many upgrades they have, they're still operating aeroplanes with 60/61/62 on the tail. Even the RAF has newer tankers than that (albeit not upgraded as the 135s have been!). Smiley
 
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Reply #20 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 8:21pm

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Reply #21 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 9:03pm

ShaneG   Offline
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C wrote on Jun 23rd, 2009 at 2:37pm:
OVERLORD_CHRIS wrote on Jun 23rd, 2009 at 6:27am:
ShaneG wrote on Jun 22nd, 2009 at 11:22am:
I'm a little confused on why this is such an issue. Huh

If the B-52 can be kept in service and relevant for over half a century now, why can't they just keep the Kc-135's flying?

It seems to me, that they are the B-52s of the refueling world, they've been around forever, and still get the job done.

And wouldn't it be cheaper to keep them flying, than to have to build an entirely new fleet of planes?  Isn't that why we have that huge complex of planes stored in the desert? Low cost, plentiful, spare parts?

 This whole 'contract' thing is nothing but an excuse to keep politicians & bureaucrats busy, and give lobbyists a reason to spend money.

That's because the B-52 does not fly all the time like the KC-135 does, it probably has twice the flying hours of the B-52 do to it triple mission capability.


Quite. I suspect the B-52 fleet doesn't come anywhere close to the level of 24-7 operations the 135 fleet does over Iraq and the Stan. Smiley



I would be interested to see what total fleet hours for both are.  Wink

No doubt the 135's get more time now, but the 52's have been around a lot longer, and during the early cold war, they spent quite a bit of time staying in the air and at the ready.
Then there was the Vietnam deal (which went on longer than the current middle east deal). And they continue their combat service and training patrols right up to this day.

They have Men serving now in the exact same 52s thier grandfathers flew in. Shocked That's impressive... or scary... depending on how you look at total time in the air. Wink

I wonder how close the two really are. Smiley





 
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Reply #22 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 3:48am

C   Offline
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ShaneG wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 9:03pm:
No doubt the 135's get more time now, but the 52's have been around a lot longer, and during the early cold war, they spent quite a bit of time staying in the air and at the ready.

They have Men serving now in the exact same 52s thier grandfathers flew in. Shocked That's impressive... or scary... depending on how you look at total time in the air. Wink



Same on the 135 fleet - its the same airframes now, upgraded as the 52 has been, as it was at the turn of the 1960s. Smiley
 
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Reply #23 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 6:45am

Perriwen   Offline
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Quote:
They have Men serving now in the exact same 52s thier grandfathers flew in. Shocked That's impressive... or scary... depending on how you look at total time in the air. Wink



I HIGHLY doubt a 24-year old's grandfather flew in a B-52H, seeing as those didn't start rolling out until the 1960s....maybe their fathers, but grandfathers? Those would be in the B-17s and B-29s!
 
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Reply #24 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 7:40am

C   Offline
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Perriwen wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 6:45am:
Quote:
They have Men serving now in the exact same 52s thier grandfathers flew in. Shocked That's impressive... or scary... depending on how you look at total time in the air. Wink



I HIGHLY doubt a 24-year old's grandfather flew in a B-52H, seeing as those didn't start rolling out until the 1960s....maybe their fathers, but grandfathers? Those would be in the B-17s and B-29s!


It's quite possible a pilot who was on the B-52H in the late 60s who was in his late 30s had a son in the 50s/60s who had by now had another son/daughter in the early 80s who was now flying the B-52H. Smiley
 
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Reply #25 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 7:48am

ShaneG   Offline
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@C:  I wasn't aware that 135's had been in active service that long!  Shocked

 Almost exactly the same amount of time. Cool


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KC-135  

First flight 31 August 1956
Introduction June 1957

"As of 2006, the KC-135E fleet is flying an annual average of 350 hours per aircraft and the KC-135R fleet is flying an annual average of 710 hours per aircraft. The KC-135 fleet is currently flying double its planned yearly flying hour program to meet airborne refueling requirements, and has resulted in higher than forecast usage and sustainment costs"


Shocked Shocked

Maybe they should be building Hybrid planes as well as cars. Grin Wink







What was so wrong with these: (honest question Wink )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KC-10

"There are 59 KC-10 Extenders currently in service.[4] The KC-10 has a significantly larger fuel capacity than the Air Force's other tanker plane, the KC-135,[6] which has over 500 in service. The USAF's KC-10s are stationed primarily at Travis AFB, California and McGuire AFB, New Jersey."


And they're a LOT younger.

Is there something I'm missing? Undecided





After looking through all this, I say they should go with Boeing.

Between the B-52 & the Kc-135, there's almost 100 years of active service in them.

Now that's dependability. (or damn good maintenance men. Cheesy Wink)


 
« Last Edit: Jun 25th, 2009 at 9:55am by ShaneG »  
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Reply #26 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 10:32am

C   Offline
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ShaneG wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 7:48am:
@C:  I wasn't aware that 135's had been in active service that long!  Shocked
 


Neither was I until I was chatting to a USAF '135 groundcrewman a couple of months ago in the desert! I thought they'd had new models made, rather than a pure re-engine and avionics instead.

Sadly it loses hands down to the VC10 (hoorah! For once we have a better bit of kit!) - the KC-135 is sadly lacking in comfy seats, toilets and galleys! Grin
 
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Reply #27 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 7:04pm

OVERLORD_CHRIS   Offline
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C wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 10:32am:
ShaneG wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 7:48am:
@C:  I wasn't aware that 135's had been in active service that long!  Shocked
 


Neither was I until I was chatting to a USAF '135 ground crewman a couple of months ago in the desert! I thought they'd had new models made, rather than a pure re-engine and avionics instead.

Sadly it loses hands down to the VC10 (hoorah! For once we have a better bit of kit!) - the KC-135 is sadly lacking in comfy seats, toilets and galleys! Grin

Rich RAF VC10, bragging about your real bathroom, and comfy seats....show off. Roll Eyes

1954 B-52A Starts flying with USAF
1957 KC-135 starts flying with USAF

remember back in the day when ever the B-52 was on alert so was the KC-135, when a B-52 took off for simulation or practice run or patrol, the KC-135 was in the air fueling it since they all way took off fully loaded during "operation chrome dome" http://www.nukestrat.com/dk/alert.htm. Back when SAC had them, they had one mission give all there fuel to the bombers when they took off. So the Tanker fleet practically put the same hours on as the BUFF. But once they joined MAC/AMC, they decided to use them for the 2nd and 3rd type mission Cargo and people transport in conjunction with the primary fueling mission.


As for the KC-10 question, the 2 primary fuel drinkers (C-5 & C-17) don't like getting fuel for them, because the #2 engine blows directly on the Vertical Stabilizer, and makes refueling behind them a big pain and very turbulent.

And for there size, the KC-15R burns less fuel then the KC-10, even though it holds more. They can actually make from East coast to west coast on something less then 30,000lbs of gas, and still land with enough full to still fly down the cost. But the KC-10 is better suited for long range long distance fairy flights with fighter while hauling cargo and people.
 

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