Simviation Forum - Question About FSUIPC Joystick Programming

Jun 5^th, 2008 at 9:17am

BTilson Offline
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I know that FSUIPC is an incredible piece of software, but I have some questions about it's functionality. I know that it can control values in the memory offsets of FS9, and that it can be used to program joystick buttons. I am also aware of a facility to check the values of offsets and change them based upon what is currently at that offset. (For instance, write "off" to a toggle value only if the current value is "on", etc)

My question is, can this functionality be combined? It seems like it would be a good way to really begin building up some functional hardware for relatively cheap. Get a joystick controller card or a hacked stick, wire up your own buttons, program them with FSUIPC, done.

I have already experimented with the hacked joystick concept using the built in FS controls, but they are very limited in what they can control, hence the reason I am looking at FSUIPC to do my variable controlling. I think my first real project will be a (somewhat) slimmed down MCP/Autopilot panel. Since the functions of that should all be able to be controlled by momentary inputs, it seems that a joystick card + FSUIPC should be able to handle that admirably well. (The BUO86X (or something to that effect) joystick card can be easily set up to use rotary encoders for up/down value adjustments)

I am also aware that this setup would NOT easily accomodate toggle switches. For that I would likely go with GoFlight modules (either their premade versions or the "build your own" type option they have)

Does anyone have any input on this? This might very well be where I "really" begin. I've been experimenting with panel making and such for probably a year now, and I've built up several nice looking panels, but none of my stuff DOES anything yet. I am really itching to get some functional hardware built!

Thanks in advance for any input.

The first step on the long journey of building a flight simulator has been taken... There is no turning back now!

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Reply #1 - Jun 5^th, 2008 at 11:36am

beaky Offline
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Some specific questions would be helpful... Grin

But FWIW, here's my (still-incomplete) simpit spec ...I'm combining a hacked joystick with Hagstrom devices (which translate inputs into keyboard commands, all programmed with FSUIPC):

One Hagstrom KE-USB108: for joystick, trim wheel, and almost all switches and buttons (has 108 inputs for contacts, plus 3 analog inputs for pots).

One Hagstrom KEAD6 for the throttle quadrant (six inputs for pots; my quadrant has prop, throttle and mixture times two).

The stick pots and some switches will be used for the rudder pedals (with brakes) and maybe a couple of switches... right now my pedals use the guts from a wireless stick, but I bought a wired Saitek for $10 on sale and will hack that (the wireless is a PITA because it keeps going dormant to save battery life; OK for a joystick but not pedals, which are rarely moved.

But the "Haggies" cost a little money (although a lot less than several good joysticks)... so hacking multiple sticks can be a big money-saver, especially if you take advantage of sales at Radio Shack... Grin

Using that cheap stick for the rudders saved me having to buy another KEAD6 when I only needed one more pot interface.

Hacking mostly involves simply extending wires from either pots or switches to your home-made pots and switches... rather than remove anything, I just soldered extension leads onto the circuit boards of my hacked stick, leaving the existing stuff intact. If you mount everything properly, the board-mounted switches won't get pressed by accident.

At any rate, if the big question is: FSUIPC-yes or no? I say "YES!"... so far I've found the payware version to be very useful.

I know I sound like a Hagstrom salesaman, but I have the units and have started testing them... lots of bang for the buck, IMHO. There's also more stuff on the 108 that I am not even using...

http://www.hagstromelectronics.com/products/

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Reply #2 - Jun 5^th, 2008 at 12:21pm

BTilson Offline
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I checked out the KE-USB108... Wow. Looks like a fantastic piece of hardware, AND seems to fully support true toggle switches. It is a bit pricey, but seems to be well worth the moneda involved. May have to start priming the wife and kids to get this for me for fathers day. Tongue

Now for a very specific question, just to make sure I am thinking properly. Based on your input, I've already re-adjusted how I am thinking.

Let's say I bought a KE-USB108, I hook a toggle switch up to it. I program the switch to send "A" when it goes to on, and "B" when it goes to off. Can I then use FSUIPC to, say, specifically turn landing lights on when "A" is sent, and specifically turn them off when "B" is sent?

By "specifically" I mean that can it actually write "on" to the offset containing landing light information, instead of just "toggling" whatever value is currently there? I thinking in the line of having the sim controls and hardware controls out of sync when starting up. Let's say that switch is in the on position when I start, but the plane's lights are off. In the ideal case, turning the switch to off would simply leave the lights in the plane off, but then turning it back on would activate them, as opposed to if it were just toggling the value, turning the switch to off would turn the lights on, and vice versa.

Jeez, I hope I am making sense here. Please feel free to call me names and such if I seem to just be rambling. I understand what I am wanting to know in my head, but I fear it may not be coming out very well in words.

Thanks, by the way!!

The first step on the long journey of building a flight simulator has been taken... There is no turning back now!

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Reply #3 - Jun 5^th, 2008 at 2:45pm

JBaymore Offline
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BTilson wrote on Jun 5^th, 2008 at 12:21pm:

Let's say I bought a KE-USB108, I hook a toggle switch up to it. I program the switch to send "A" when it goes to on, and "B" when it goes to off. Can I then use FSUIPC to, say, specifically turn landing lights on when "A" is sent, and specifically turn them off when "B" is sent?

By "specifically" I mean that can it actually write "on" to the offset containing landing light information, instead of just "toggling" whatever value is currently there? I thinking in the line of having the sim controls and hardware controls out of sync when starting up. Let's say that switch is in the on position when I start, but the plane's lights are off. In the ideal case, turning the switch to off would simply leave the lights in the plane off, but then turning it back on would activate them, as opposed to if it were just toggling the value, turning the switch to off would turn the lights on, and vice versa.

Jeez, I hope I am making sense here. Please feel free to call me names and such if I seem to just be rambling. I understand what I am wanting to know in my head, but I fear it may not be coming out very well in words.

Thanks, by the way!!

Here's the "tag team" salesman approach on the Hagstrom stuff........ Wink

Yes, the Haggie will do that FOR THE MOST PART. There are some commands in FS that are inherent to the sim itself...and do not have anything BUT a "toggle" function.

But most stuff is retained if the model you re suing retains settings (some don't). So if you shut down the aircraft with the landing lights "on" when you re start the sim..... the lights will be on.

You can also tell the Haggie to "ignore" switch positions on startup and other such options. The programming setup for the Hagstrom cards is VERY flexible.

I have two KE-72s (the 108 is a new product since I bought mine). They are flawless pieces of hardware.

best,

................john

Intel i7 960 quad 3.2G LGA 1366, Asus P6X58D Premium, 750W Corsair, 6 gig 1600 DDR3, Spinpoint 1TB 7200 HD, Caviar 500G 7200 HD, GTX275 1280M, Logitec Z640, Win7 Pro 64b, CH Products yoke, pedals + throttle quad, simpit

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Reply #4 - Jun 5^th, 2008 at 3:13pm

beaky Offline
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JB raises a good point... but shoot, if you're going to build even a simple simpit, you "should" be starting and ending flights "cold and dark"... more realism.
In that case, there'd never be something left on that shouldn't be.

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Reply #5 - Jun 5^th, 2008 at 5:35pm

BTilson Offline
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You guys are just about to convince me to get one of these! Although I'll likely get the KE72 to start with. I have two more questions. One about the KE72 and one about FSUIPC.

One, do you have to hook up the KE72 to your serial port to program it? I would think so, as I've never heard of sending data back out through the mini 6 pin keyboard port.

Two, are FSUIPC keyboard inputs case sensitive? For instance, could I program a different action to "a" and "A" or would it see those as the same thing?

Thanks!!

The first step on the long journey of building a flight simulator has been taken... There is no turning back now!

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Reply #6 - Jun 5^th, 2008 at 5:59pm

JBaymore Offline
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BTilson wrote on Jun 5^th, 2008 at 5:35pm:

You guys are just about to convince me to get one of these! Although I'll likely get the KE72 to start with. I have two more questions. One about the KE72 and one about FSUIPC.

One, do you have to hook up the KE72 to your serial port to program it? I would think so, as I've never heard of sending data back out through the mini 6 pin keyboard port.

Two, are FSUIPC keyboard inputs case sensitive? For instance, could I program a different action to "a" and "A" or would it see those as the same thing?

Thanks!!

The KE72 gets programmed right thru the keyboard cable!!!! It works slicker n' %$#@. You write up a config file in notepad with what you want each input to do, and then point out that file to their programming interface program and voila',....... the KE72 works.

SOme of the Hagstrom cards DO require you to hook them up to the serial port to program them ....... but I don't remember which ones now. The website tells you.

Get the breakout cards for the KE72.... they make wiring MUCH simpler.

As to FSUIPC recognizing the "a" versus the "A"...... I can't remember for sure. But I think it does....it recognizes ASCII codes, if I remember correctly. Download the full program and the user manual...... it works in the "free" mode no matter what....which limits what it does. The manual will tell you ALL about it's capabilities. Note that there are differenet versions for fs2004 and for FSX.

I use checklist for all phases of flight now....since the pit is getting so "real". If I don't I can EASILY forget something. I always ue the shut down checklist. Cold and dark all the way, baby. Cool

The other day I tried to do a "casual" take off without the checklist... and it actually caused me to implement a rejected takeoff when the engines did not develop TO thrust correctly (one switch not in correct position). Took me a few seconds to realise the abnormal condition as the aircraft was sluggish ...and suddenly it dawned on me I had an emergency situation. It actually was a LOT of fun....... because it came at me totally unerxpected. Surprisingly... even though I KNOW it is a sim.... it got my heart pumping. Got it stopped on the runway,....... just.

best,

.................john

Intel i7 960 quad 3.2G LGA 1366, Asus P6X58D Premium, 750W Corsair, 6 gig 1600 DDR3, Spinpoint 1TB 7200 HD, Caviar 500G 7200 HD, GTX275 1280M, Logitec Z640, Win7 Pro 64b, CH Products yoke, pedals + throttle quad, simpit

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Reply #7 - Jun 5^th, 2008 at 8:24pm

beaky Offline
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I think FSUIPC will let you program a two-key function (such as "Shift, A") for any switch or button-press... you can even have the Haggie emulate any single key, and FSUIPC will let you assign that key press to yet another key press, etc. I believe in this way you can also create macros. You can even specify a command that occurs when the contact is closed, then another when it is open.

Not sure how all that works exactly; I haven't gotten that far yet.

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Reply #8 - Jun 5^th, 2008 at 8:30pm

JBaymore Offline
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The Hagstrom KE72 and its software support macros....... I think the limit is 64 characters on "make" and a different 64 characters on "break".

best,

.....................john

Intel i7 960 quad 3.2G LGA 1366, Asus P6X58D Premium, 750W Corsair, 6 gig 1600 DDR3, Spinpoint 1TB 7200 HD, Caviar 500G 7200 HD, GTX275 1280M, Logitec Z640, Win7 Pro 64b, CH Products yoke, pedals + throttle quad, simpit

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Reply #9 - Jun 5^th, 2008 at 9:19pm

BTilson Offline
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So I DL'd FSUIPC and poured over the interesting parts of the manuals, read through the controls, skimmed over FSInterrogate, etc... It seems like aside from controlling external programs like the FreeFD ND, that it can do anything and everything I could ever possibly want it to do heh. The massive controls list combined with the ability to read/write to any offset really seems like just one big massive playground to me.

One thing I seem to recall reading though is that using physical toggle switches was a bad idea. Seems like they would work, set the "make" to an "...on" value, set the break to an "...off" value, with no repeat set. However, seems like I heard that that was a bad way to go about that for some reason. Something to do with that fact that even though FSUIPC was only sending one command to the sim, that the joystick/etc was still seeing it as a button/key being held down the whole time that the toggle was in the on position... Right? Wrong? Even if I am right about that, could you ever really have enough toggles hooked up to where this would actually cause a problem? I could see it if you were using a hacked PS2 keyboard, and it would only allow you to have X number of keys held down at once, but with a joystick card, a hagstrom, etc, seems like that wouldn't be a problem?

I am betting that I am wrong, and that it IS an issue for some reason... Could either of you clarify? I've got a billion switches/buttons/pots/etc laying around, everything I need to make some nice panels, etc, and I am just dying to actually make something WORK.

Thanks, yet again!

The first step on the long journey of building a flight simulator has been taken... There is no turning back now!

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Reply #10 - Jun 6^th, 2008 at 12:50am

JBaymore Offline
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The Hagstrom cards can send whatever you want when a single "change of state" pulse happens on a toggle or momentary or wafer switch. This keysend can be almost any combination of things. One single "A" kepress, a string of "A"s, an "A" followed by a "B" followed by a delay of 1/2 second followed by "Shift + "D" and so on, for example.

If a toggle switch is wired where a momentary is normaly supposed to be, the joystick controller THINKS that the button is being constantly pressed.... and so keeps sending that button press at the repeat rate set up in the software/hardware. That "traffic" is constant on the buss until the toggle is released. So while FSUIPC can be told to "ignore" the repeats........ the traffic is still getting handled by the processor. If you have a lot of buttons in use like this it is just inviting conflicts, slowing of the system, and glitches, IMHO.

best,

.......................john

Intel i7 960 quad 3.2G LGA 1366, Asus P6X58D Premium, 750W Corsair, 6 gig 1600 DDR3, Spinpoint 1TB 7200 HD, Caviar 500G 7200 HD, GTX275 1280M, Logitec Z640, Win7 Pro 64b, CH Products yoke, pedals + throttle quad, simpit

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Reply #11 - Jun 7^th, 2008 at 7:21am

nemesis19 Offline
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Hi,
another possibility is IOCards from OpenCockpits. They're a group of enthousiasts, that produce and sell, good quality hardware at cost !!

It's a modular system, so you can start small and gradually build up. Programming can be simple, or complicated, using free software, that can even simulate full aircraft systems, outside the scope of FS.

http://www.opencockpits.com

Regards
............Adrian W.

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Reply #12 - Jun 7^th, 2008 at 9:04am

beaky Offline
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JBaymore wrote on Jun 6^th, 2008 at 12:50am:

The Hagstrom cards can send whatever you want when a single "change of state" pulse happens on a toggle or momentary or wafer switch. This keysend can be almost any combination of things. One single "A" kepress, a string of "A"s, an "A" followed by a "B" followed by a delay of 1/2 second followed by "Shift + "D" and so on, for example.

If a toggle switch is wired where a momentary is normaly supposed to be, the joystick controller THINKS that the button is being constantly pressed.... and so keeps sending that button press at the repeat rate set up in the software/hardware. That "traffic" is constant on the buss until the toggle is released. So while FSUIPC can be told to "ignore" the repeats........ the traffic is still getting handled by the processor. If you have a lot of buttons in use like this it is just inviting conflicts, slowing of the system, and glitches, IMHO.

best,

.......................john

I'm hoping for the best with this, as I have a few latching toggles in my design... any idea what an advisable limit would be?

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