Simviation Forum - O&O defrag issue

Jan 5^th, 2008 at 5:15pm

raptorx Offline
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I've been using O&O defrag for a while now, version 10, and it's been working well. When I installed my XP & FSX/addons I used a space defrag followed by a complete/name defrag and only the complete/name defrag from then on. Now today, during a defrag, my computer crashed just before it was finished. I got a blue screen with an error notice and a memory dump (didn't save it and I don't have error reporting on). Couldn't restart even after a CMOS reset until I took out the memory and reinstalled it, then it started up fine and with a reset BIOS. All is well now, but here's the issue:

Where my O&O once showed the space reserved for the MFT in yellow shading, that is gone now. No more yellow space of MFT being displayed. I did a complete/name defrag and that completed and filled in the empty space left by the yellow MFT blocks. It looks like overall the total used is still the same, it's just all blue files, orange directories, a couple black locked cells, and the brown paging file (3070mb).

The computer works fine, FSX works fine, but how can I have no MFT and still function? I tried uninstalling and reinstalling O&O and it's the same. Any ideas?

-Jim

Rampage II Gene, i7 965 4GHz
Mushkin Redline DDR3 1600
XP x64 SP2
ASUS Matrix GTX285

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Reply #1 - Jan 5^th, 2008 at 8:34pm

Wingo Offline
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If your MFT was trully missing you would know about it, your system would be completely uselss. It seems weird that O&O can't detct it any more. I would do a disk check just to make sure that no damage has been done. The instructions below are for Vista, but will be similar for XP.

Open up My Computer.

Right click the hard drive you wish to check and select Properties.

Select the Tools tab and find Error Checking.

Click Check Now and in the new window make sure Automatically fix file system errors and Scan for and attempt recovery of bad sectors.

Click OK and restart the computer.

Allow the check to run.

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Reply #2 - Jan 5^th, 2008 at 11:22pm

raptorx Offline
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I thought so too. It couldn't actually be gone. I did run the disk check and didn't notice anything. I just hope my files are organized correctly on the hard disk-by folder/file name, and not in some other order that I can't detect.

-Jim

Wingo wrote on Jan 5^th, 2008 at 8:34pm:

If your MFT was trully missing you would know about it, your system would be completely uselss. It seems weird that O&O can't detct it any more. I would do a disk check just to make sure that no damage has been done. The instructions below are for Vista, but will be similar for XP.

Open up My Computer.

Right click the hard drive you wish to check and select Properties.

Select the Tools tab and find Error Checking.

Click Check Now and in the new window make sure Automatically fix file system errors and Scan for and attempt recovery of bad sectors.

Click OK and restart the computer.

Allow the check to run.

Rampage II Gene, i7 965 4GHz
Mushkin Redline DDR3 1600
XP x64 SP2
ASUS Matrix GTX285

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Reply #3 - Jan 6^th, 2008 at 12:20am

NickN Offline
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FSX runs fine... the problem
is you or your system

Posts: 6317

The crash seems strange to begin with. O&O is not going to cause such a crash

Anyway, no worries about the MFT. This was a clean install and Windows will reassign the space as it is required. Its there, its just so small its not showing up right now

It may pop back in over the next week. By default Windows reserves 12.5% of the disk space for the MFT so it will show back up soon enough.

And the suggestion above about running a proper disk check is good advice. Run the long version in this case just to be sure no sectors are damaged

follow the directions posted above

EDIT: I see you mentioned you ran the disk check.. I assume that was the full disk check with a sector scan too

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Reply #4 - Jan 6^th, 2008 at 1:36pm

raptorx Offline
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There's too much confusion...
San Diego, CA

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Yes, I ran the long one, the one with all 5 steps. I didn't notice any errors show up, I guess it would alert me? I've never seen any errors in any of my disk checks.

I don't blame O&O. The crash was most likely due to instability in my overclock:

E6850 running at 3.82 GHz @1.45volts, 61C highest temp under stress, I tested my system w/Prime95 and had to slowly raise Vcore until I got 9 hours w/o errors. Everything's been running well-especially FSX which I know would crash the computer if I wasn't stable.

So I have to assume that things finally caught up with me during a routine defrag. I guess I need to run stability tests for 24 hours before settling on permanant settings.

Another possibility, I couldn't get my system restarted until I took out the memory modules and reinstalled. I have a case w/lots of fans and good airflow. I have to blow the dust out every week or two, and there's a cloud of dust every time. I don't use filters because it would impede the airflow and defeat the purpose of all the fans. I supposed something could have gotton into the memory slots and shorted out a contact? Far fetched but condidering the amount of cleaning I have to do on a regular basis I think there are possibilities.

I'll leave it alone for now because everything works well. And I'm doing another clean XP install as soon as service pack 3 is released.

-Jim

NickN wrote on Jan 6^th, 2008 at 12:20am:

The crash seems strange to begin with. O&O is not going to cause such a crash

Anyway, no worries about the MFT. This was a clean install and Windows will reassign the space as it is required. Its there, its just so small its not showing up right now

It may pop back in over the next week. By default Windows reserves 12.5% of the disk space for the MFT so it will show back up soon enough.

And the suggestion above about running a proper disk check is good advice. Run the long version in this case just to be sure no sectors are damaged

follow the directions posted above

EDIT: I see you mentioned you ran the disk check.. I assume that was the full disk check with a sector scan too

Rampage II Gene, i7 965 4GHz
Mushkin Redline DDR3 1600
XP x64 SP2
ASUS Matrix GTX285

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Reply #5 - Jan 8^th, 2008 at 11:56pm

macca22au Offline
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Just as a side note, my tech claims that over defragmenting is hard on the mechanism of the disk as just about every file has to be found.

In his view this can lead to disk failure, or defective portions.

I know that NickN is a keen defragmenter, and I wonder whether he agress we might be overdoing it.

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Reply #6 - Jan 9^th, 2008 at 10:14am

NickN Offline
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FSX runs fine... the problem
is you or your system

Posts: 6317

macca22au wrote on Jan 8^th, 2008 at 11:56pm:

Just as a side note, my tech claims that over defragmenting is hard on the mechanism of the disk as just about every file has to be found.

In his view this can lead to disk failure, or defective portions.

I know that NickN is a keen defragmenter, and I wonder whether he agress we might be overdoing it.

NO

BS

the drive has a life rating and that means it will function read/write within that life expectancy. If it fails its a defect by manufacture standards, period

I do not defrag every day/week I only do it once a month or if I install a huge update into the FSX drive

I also keep FSX on one drive and Windows on another so the FSX drive does not fragment due to Windows dynamic crap

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Reply #7 - Jan 9^th, 2008 at 8:16pm

macca22au Offline
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Thanks Nick: Delightfully forthright.

I am dropping my rig off for the CPU etc upgrade next week. I am also going to have FSX exclusively on a RAID 0 dual disk setup. Everything else will go on to the third disk including the OS.

In preparation I have moved off that third disk my photographs (my other main use of the computer, love my dig camera), and my massive folder of FS downloads. That folder needs one hell of a cull but that will be for another day.

These have gone to an external hard drive - something I wish I had thought off earlier, although prices have come down wonderfully as all forms of external storage is flooding the market. Technically it is slower than the built in HDDs but by their nature all this is slow stuff anyway.

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Reply #8 - Jan 10^th, 2008 at 8:40pm

raptorx Offline
Colonel
There's too much confusion...
San Diego, CA

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Are you setting it up or is someone doing it for you? The reason I ask is I am interested in RAID 0 and I want to set it up right, with the seperate controller card and stripe block size, etc. I don't know how to do anything but motherboard RAID and I only read about that, never did one. So I'd like to learn how. If you're doing it yourself would you mind if I asked questions afterward?

-Jim
macca22au wrote on Jan 9^th, 2008 at 8:16pm:

Thanks Nick: Delightfully forthright.

I am dropping my rig off for the CPU etc upgrade next week. I am also going to have FSX exclusively on a RAID 0 dual disk setup. Everything else will go on to the third disk including the OS.

In preparation I have moved off that third disk my photographs (my other main use of the computer, love my dig camera), and my massive folder of FS downloads. That folder needs one hell of a cull but that will be for another day.

These have gone to an external hard drive - something I wish I had thought off earlier, although prices have come down wonderfully as all forms of external storage is flooding the market. Technically it is slower than the built in HDDs but by their nature all this is slow stuff anyway.

Rampage II Gene, i7 965 4GHz
Mushkin Redline DDR3 1600
XP x64 SP2
ASUS Matrix GTX285

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Reply #9 - Jan 10^th, 2008 at 8:42pm

raptorx Offline
Colonel
There's too much confusion...
San Diego, CA

Gender:
Posts: 434

I defrag too often probably, every three or four days and certainly after a major install/uninstall of something. Perhaps I should just leave it alone except for once a month?

edit: I see anyware from 30 to a couple hundred files marked as "fragmented" by O&O each time according to the analysis.

NickN wrote on Jan 9^th, 2008 at 10:14am:

macca22au wrote on Jan 8^th, 2008 at 11:56pm:

Just as a side note, my tech claims that over defragmenting is hard on the mechanism of the disk as just about every file has to be found.

In his view this can lead to disk failure, or defective portions.

I know that NickN is a keen defragmenter, and I wonder whether he agress we might be overdoing it.

NO

BS

the drive has a life rating and that means it will function read/write within that life expectancy. If it fails its a defect by manufacture standards, period

I do not defrag every day/week I only do it once a month or if I install a huge update into the FSX drive

I also keep FSX on one drive and Windows on another so the FSX drive does not fragment due to Windows dynamic crap

Rampage II Gene, i7 965 4GHz
Mushkin Redline DDR3 1600
XP x64 SP2
ASUS Matrix GTX285

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Reply #10 - Jan 11^th, 2008 at 9:48am

NickN Offline
Colonel
FSX runs fine... the problem
is you or your system

Posts: 6317

raptorx wrote on Jan 10^th, 2008 at 8:40pm:

Are you setting it up or is someone doing it for you? The reason I ask is I am interested in RAID 0 and I want to set it up right, with the seperate controller card and stripe block size, etc. I don't know how to do anything but motherboard RAID and I only read about that, never did one. So I'd like to learn how. If you're doing it yourself would you mind if I asked questions afterward?

-Jim
macca22au wrote on Jan 9^th, 2008 at 8:16pm:

Thanks Nick: Delightfully forthright.

I am dropping my rig off for the CPU etc upgrade next week. I am also going to have FSX exclusively on a RAID 0 dual disk setup. Everything else will go on to the third disk including the OS.

In preparation I have moved off that third disk my photographs (my other main use of the computer, love my dig camera), and my massive folder of FS downloads. That folder needs one hell of a cull but that will be for another day.

These have gone to an external hard drive - something I wish I had thought off earlier, although prices have come down wonderfully as all forms of external storage is flooding the market. Technically it is slower than the built in HDDs but by their nature all this is slow stuff anyway.

He's having a tech do it. If you are on Windows XP the card I posted in the FAQ will do the job. You can also see the settings I posted for the card in that thread.

You MUST have a UPS, or better, the battery backup unit designed for that card (sold separately) or you can not enable write caching in the card without serous risk of losing the array in the event of a Windows crash or power glitch.

You have 72 hours to get power restored, boot wiindows and shut down properly if the power goes out or Windows crashes with the BBU module installed and if you have a UPS it will allow you to shut down correctly in the event of a power failure.

You do not need to defrag every 4 days. I run a 2 hour maintenance routine once a month where I flush the temp files, clean off old data not needed, and my drives each go through the offline defrag and 2 complete\name defrags with a reboot between each pass.

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