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No more traction control (Read 1865 times)
Nov 6th, 2007 at 8:46am

expat   Offline
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Michael Schumacher will be testing for Ferrari due to his experience of driving non traction control in F1. 

Shumacher and TC

However, as stated in the article, "F1 begins a new era without traction control and other driver aids", does anyone know what the other banned "driver aids" are? Fingers crossed it is flappy paddle gearboxes, but I am not holding my breath on that one.

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Reply #1 - Nov 6th, 2007 at 11:23am

eno   Offline
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Flappy paddle is here to stay ....... its safer.

I think quite a lot of the electronic driver aids are going..... not checked yet so can't say which ..... though one of our more enthusiastic F1 fans will probably be able to list the lot.  Grin Grin Grin
 

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Reply #2 - Nov 6th, 2007 at 11:57am

expat   Offline
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eno wrote on Nov 6th, 2007 at 11:23am:
Flappy paddle is here to stay ....... its safer.


No, it just makes it easier to drive. If the driver had to decide when he was going to change gear it would make overtaking (and that is why we watch) a thing of skill and judgment and not a computer controlled equation.


However, how long before the teams come up with something that beats TC. Rather than engaging when the wheels are about to spin or do spin what about limiting the RPM at a certain point in a gear because you know that the wheels will spin for example. 

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Reply #3 - Nov 7th, 2007 at 4:42pm
CharlottesDad   Ex Member

 
TC can kick in at low revs too, for instance when in a slide out of a corner and works under braking as well.
 
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Reply #4 - Nov 7th, 2007 at 4:57pm

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I reckon it'd be fun to issue all of the teams with a single chassis...


...a race with 22 identical Lotus 49s would seperate the men from the boys! Grin
 
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Reply #5 - Nov 8th, 2007 at 2:46am

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I don't know jack about F1 cars, but nothing replaces the good old clutch for me Tongue Tongue
 

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Reply #6 - Nov 8th, 2007 at 5:00am

expat   Offline
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Ashar wrote on Nov 8th, 2007 at 2:46am:
I don't know jack about F1 cars, but nothing replaces the good old clutch for me Tongue Tongue


Now that is what is missing, three peddles and a gear stick. That would separate the Michael Schumacher's from the Taki Inoue's.

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Reply #7 - Nov 8th, 2007 at 5:09am

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expat wrote on Nov 8th, 2007 at 5:00am:
Ashar wrote on Nov 8th, 2007 at 2:46am:
I don't know jack about F1 cars, but nothing replaces the good old clutch for me Tongue Tongue


Now that is what is missing, three peddles and a gear stick. That would separate the Michael Schumacher's from the Taki Inoue's.

Matt


They wouldn't be able to fit in three pedals and a gear stick nowadays...


...or a normal shaped driver... Grin
 
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Reply #8 - Nov 8th, 2007 at 7:13am

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Smiling as I return to see this. Although what does that say of the current driver line up? We need a retired guy to test this as the others dont have the experience. I knew this would happen the second he drove the car at Fiorano.
As for clutches and gear boxes,it is a proven safety fact now that the paddles are safer in the current climate of motor racing. If the cars were slower then theres no reason why the old H pattern box couldn't be brought back.

I see michael back and racing within a season or two, he made the fatal mistake of driving the car again

The loss of traction control is nothing major, both ferrari and Renault will have to adjust their cars a little balance wise on braking because of how they used their TC systems, Mclaren are perhaps going to have the biggest challenge on acceleration because their car is more front biased in terms of weight.
« Last Edit: Nov 8th, 2007 at 2:45pm by Craig. »  
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Reply #9 - Nov 8th, 2007 at 7:27pm

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRzbsI-1-SY
I thought this video works wellb for the topic and subject. A v10 engined F1 car, lapping a track with a couple of slow tight corners and no traction control. I dont really see a big differance to what we have now, with the V8's it'll probably be even less. The only minor differances were the slightly slower imputs on the throttle and the upshifts out of the slow corners being rather quick to keep the rears from spinning between 1st and 3rd gear. No powerslides that I've heard some people talk of. Roll Eyes

As a side note in response to ex-pats question, as far as I can tell the only other major change is the standard ECU (made by Mclaren I might note) the idea being people cant hide any sort of engine management systems that could replicate TC (we have Bennaton to thank for this one) and so the FIA can monitor all the teams with regards to Launch control and various other braking stability programs that might be hidden in there to aid with the loss of TC.

In the future I believe its been introduced or being introduced that cars will not be allowed any added winglets/bargeboards or additional aerodynamic devices on the cars (see Ferrari/toyota Wheel hubs)
The front and rear wings will be made thinner and I believe it was said flatter however they will be made wider,  the driver will be able to adjust the angle of the front wing upto 6 degrees from the cockpit, however only twice a lap (see standard ECU for how FIA will keep note) The rear wings width will decrease by 25cm down to 75 but will increase in height from 80 to 95cm
The rear diffuser will start from the rear axel instead of the current position of the front end of the rear wheels, but it can be raised to over 17cm's instead of the current 12.5cm.
I've just double checked this and these are the working groups proposals for 2009 which have in principle been accepted by the FIA. The result is 50% less downforce over the 2006 cars, and a 25% loss when following a car closely over the current 45% that is currently lost.
 
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Reply #10 - Nov 9th, 2007 at 1:31pm
CharlottesDad   Ex Member

 
Craig. wrote on Nov 8th, 2007 at 7:27pm:
... the driver will be able to adjust the angle of the front wing upto 6 degrees from the cockpit, however only twice a lap....


That will be interesting, however twice a lap should be more than enough anyway, take Silverstone as an example, I'd guess the only times you'd need to change the front wing angle would be along the Hangar Straight (less downforce) and maybe exiting Luffield on to the pit straight, same again.
At Monaco, up the hill to Casino Square and in the tunnel would be the only realistic places too.

On the flip side, at Monza it would be more downforce, maybe at the Lesmos and Curva Parabolica.

I'm beginning to like the idea...
 
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Reply #11 - Nov 9th, 2007 at 1:44pm

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Quote:
Craig. wrote on Nov 8th, 2007 at 7:27pm:
... the driver will be able to adjust the angle of the front wing upto 6 degrees from the cockpit, however only twice a lap....


That will be interesting, however twice a lap should be more than enough anyway, take Silverstone as an example, I'd guess the only times you'd need to change the front wing angle would be along the Hangar Straight (less downforce) and maybe exiting Luffield on to the pit straight, same again.
At Monaco, up the hill to Casino Square and in the tunnel would be the only realistic places too.

On the flip side, at Monza it would be more downforce, maybe at the Lesmos and Curva Parabolica.

I'm beginning to like the idea...

The problem being with only being able to adjust it twice you cant pick two places to adjust it. Using the Silverstone example, if the driver adjusts the wing for hangar straight then he would need to add more wing for the luffield complex, there are the two uses for the lap used up.
Much like yourself I like the ideas on the table, but the wing adjustment I could only ever see being used in a simmilar fashion to the power boost button in champ car. Reduce the angle at the start of a straight for the pass then as you are alongside or just past, you set it back to the needed angle for the next corner.
 
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Reply #12 - Nov 13th, 2007 at 7:53am

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Looks like Schumi was never away after the lunch break.

Top 11 (laatste update: 13:38)


Coureur Team Chassis Laptime Verschil Laps
1 Pedro de la Rosa McLaren MP4-22 1:23.119 26
2 Michael Schumacher Ferrari F2007 1:23.164 + 0.045 22
3 Heikki Kovalainen Renault R27 1:23.691 + 0.572 35
4 Gary Paffett McLaren MP4-22 1:23.791 + 0.672 17
5 Luca Badoer Ferrari F2007 1:23.879 + 0.760 36
6 Franck Montagny Toyota TF107 1:24.047 + 0.928 11
7 Sebastian Vettel Scuderia Toro Rosso STR2 1:24.559 + 1.440 40
8 Nick Heidfeld BMW Sauber F1.07 1:24.621 + 1.502 29
9 Nico Rosberg Williams FW29 1:24.689 + 1.570 22
10 David Coulthard Red Bull Racing RB3 1:25.032 + 1.913 18
11 James Rossiter Super Aguri F1 SA07 1:25.182 + 2.063 24

The last two numbers are laps completed Smiley
Ferrari have a new steering wheel, gone are the big screen and two smaller screens below it, they've been replaced by two small data screens at the top and 3 new dials have appeared instead. It's apparently caused some problems this morning costing them track time.
 
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Reply #13 - Nov 13th, 2007 at 3:17pm

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As if there were any doubt. Smiley

1.  M.Schumacher   Ferrari              (B)   1:21.922   64
2.  Badoer         Ferrari              (B)   1:22.129   76
3.  de la Rosa     McLaren-Mercedes     (B)   1:22.687   63
4.  Kovalainen     Renault              (B)   1:22.802   81
5.  Kubica         BMW-Sauber           (B)   1:22.883   56
6.  Paffett        McLaren-Mercedes     (B)   1:23.008   46
7.  Nakajima       Williams-Toyota      (B)   1:23.187   66
8.  Coulthard      Red Bull-Renault     (B)   1:23.332   55
9.  Trulli         Toyota               (B)   1:23.624   46
10.  Heidfeld       BMW-Sauber           (B)   1:23.671   75
11.  Rosberg        Williams-Toyota      (B)   1:23.847   58
12.  Montagny       Toyota               (B)   1:23.861   61
13.  Vettel         Toro Rosso-Ferrari   (B)   1:24.048   77
14.  Zuber          Honda                (B)   1:24.065   77
15.  Bourdais       Toro Rosso-Ferrari   (B)   1:24.193   51
16.  Davidson       Super Aguri-Honda    (B)   1:24.246   70
17.  Rossiter       Honda                (B)   1:24.480   69
18.  Chandhok       Red Bull-Renault     (B)   1:24.896   39
19.  van der Garde  Force India-Ferrari  (B)   1:25.317   84
20.  Rodriguez      Force India-Ferrari  (B)   1:26.973   87

 
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Reply #14 - Nov 13th, 2007 at 4:34pm
CharlottesDad   Ex Member

 
They can knock MS all they like, but no mistake, he's still got it  Cool
Nice to see Bourdais' lap time close to Vettel's, he'll be one to watch next year... and Paffettt did alright too.
 
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Reply #15 - Nov 13th, 2007 at 4:40pm

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The big one to me is Nakajima being quite a way ahead of Rosberg
 
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Reply #16 - Nov 13th, 2007 at 5:11pm

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Craig. wrote on Nov 13th, 2007 at 4:40pm:
The big one to me is Nakajima being quite a way ahead of Rosberg


As Sam Michael all but mentioned the other week, in his "audition" in Interlagos, Nakajima, qualifying aside, was rather quick... Smiley
 
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Reply #17 - Nov 13th, 2007 at 5:16pm

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I'm sure his mechanics agreed as he proceeded to kebab them. A little too quick. Wink Grin
 
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Reply #18 - Nov 13th, 2007 at 5:29pm

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Craig. wrote on Nov 13th, 2007 at 5:16pm:
I'm sure his mechanics agreed as he proceeded to kebab them. A little too quick. Wink Grin


Dare I say, "Kamikaze" tactics?

I reckon [eastendpundit] the boy'll do good [/eastendpundit]. Possibly a successful Japanese driver in F1?
 
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Reply #19 - Nov 13th, 2007 at 5:33pm

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Charlie wrote on Nov 13th, 2007 at 5:29pm:
Craig. wrote on Nov 13th, 2007 at 5:16pm:
I'm sure his mechanics agreed as he proceeded to kebab them. A little too quick. Wink Grin


Possibly a successful Japanese driver in F1?

Grin Grin Grin Grin
I suppose anything is possible. Grin
It wont be with Williams though.
 
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Reply #20 - Nov 13th, 2007 at 5:59pm

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http://tinyurl.com/2rqgzw
Short video of the ferrari today, quite a good demo of the car without TC, a nice slide out of the corner.
 
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Reply #21 - Nov 13th, 2007 at 6:07pm
CharlottesDad   Ex Member

 
Craig. wrote on Nov 8th, 2007 at 7:27pm:
A v10 engined F1 car, lapping a track with a couple of slow tight corners and no traction control. I dont really see a big differance to what we have now, with the V8's it'll probably be even less. The only minor differances were the slightly slower imputs on the throttle and the upshifts out of the slow corners being rather quick to keep the rears from spinning between 1st and 3rd gear. No powerslides that I've heard some people talk of.


You were saying Craig..?   Grin

Craig. wrote on Nov 13th, 2007 at 5:59pm:
without TC, a nice slide out of the corner.


Cool

 
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Reply #22 - Nov 13th, 2007 at 6:17pm

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For show, for show Lips Sealed Embarrassed Grin
 
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Reply #23 - Nov 13th, 2007 at 6:23pm
CharlottesDad   Ex Member

 
Grin  Grin  Wink
 
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Reply #24 - Nov 13th, 2007 at 6:28pm

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To be fair, this is my christmas pressie and bday pressie rolled into one considering only 6 months ago he said he would never drive the car again. Now it's being arranged for him to also drive it at the next test in Jerez. I hold out hope that he'll take part at the silverstone test in June. That'll be three days I have the flu if he does. Wink
 
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Reply #25 - Nov 13th, 2007 at 6:47pm
CharlottesDad   Ex Member

 
Flu or no flu Craig... you know you'll be there if it happens mate  Wink
 
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Reply #26 - Nov 13th, 2007 at 6:50pm

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Craig. wrote on Nov 13th, 2007 at 5:33pm:
It wont be with Williams though.


The sooner Toyota realise they're pants and give up the better. Then they can supply engines and a "wee bit" of financial backing to Williams. Look what happened when Mercedes did that to McLaren... Smiley
 
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Reply #27 - Nov 13th, 2007 at 7:10pm

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I agree Charlie, unfortunatly, Toyota much like Honda, now see F1 as the place to put their futur road car designers and technicians through their paces. Niether are in F1 with the ultimate goal of winning a title, but they are in it to advance the future of the road car department. This is why I find it odd that Ross Brawn joined Honda. And why niether team will be competitve till they change the outlook they have in F1.
Williams team and management with Toyota financial backing and engine supply would have the team fighting for wins in a year or two.
« Last Edit: Nov 14th, 2007 at 4:32am by Craig. »  
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Reply #28 - Nov 14th, 2007 at 2:32am

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Maybe Honda are changing their thinking on F1 by hiring Brawn. What's the betting that they suddenly become competitive and have Ferrari accusing them of stealing technical details?  Grin Grin Grin
 

...
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Reply #29 - Nov 14th, 2007 at 10:11am

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eno wrote on Nov 14th, 2007 at 2:32am:
Maybe Honda are changing their thinking on F1 by hiring Brawn. What's the betting that they suddenly become competitive and have Ferrari accusing them of stealing technical details?  Grin Grin Grin



Joking aside, how does he go to Honda after 10 years and "switch off" anything to do with Ferrari. The way that the Ferrari has evolved over the past years, Honda could jump lots of grid places just by "using" Ferrari evolved ideas from a few years ago.

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Reply #30 - Nov 14th, 2007 at 12:26pm

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expat wrote on Nov 14th, 2007 at 10:11am:
eno wrote on Nov 14th, 2007 at 2:32am:
Maybe Honda are changing their thinking on F1 by hiring Brawn. What's the betting that they suddenly become competitive and have Ferrari accusing them of stealing technical details?  Grin Grin Grin



Joking aside, how does he go to Honda after 10 years and "switch off" anything to do with Ferrari. The way that the Ferrari has evolved over the past years, Honda could jump lots of grid places just by "using" Ferrari evolved ideas from a few years ago.

Matt

But to be fair thats always happend.
Look at the Redbull/ STR cars. They are traditional Newey cars, which just happen to look like the Mclarens. It would not surprise me if next years honda turns up on the grid with the big drooping nose cone and sculpted bodywork of the 06 Ferrari.
The key thing is that he doesn't bring cd's, floppy disks and drawings along with him that are owned by Ferrari.
 
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Reply #31 - Nov 14th, 2007 at 1:15pm

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Craig. wrote on Nov 14th, 2007 at 12:26pm:
expat wrote on Nov 14th, 2007 at 10:11am:
eno wrote on Nov 14th, 2007 at 2:32am:
Maybe Honda are changing their thinking on F1 by hiring Brawn. What's the betting that they suddenly become competitive and have Ferrari accusing them of stealing technical details?  Grin Grin Grin



Joking aside, how does he go to Honda after 10 years and "switch off" anything to do with Ferrari. The way that the Ferrari has evolved over the past years, Honda could jump lots of grid places just by "using" Ferrari evolved ideas from a few years ago.

Matt


The key thing is that he doesn't bring cd's, floppy disks and drawings along with him that are owned by Ferrari.


In the present climate that would be a very good idea Grin

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Reply #32 - Nov 14th, 2007 at 6:12pm

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No Idea what this has to do with the thread, but its rather funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyfSAXhl4yY

day 2 testing results

1.  M.Schumacher   Ferrari              (B)   1:21.486   90
2.  de la Rosa     McLaren-Mercedes     (B)   1:21.857   60
3.  Kovalainen     Renault              (B)   1:21.894   65
4.  Massa          Ferrari              (B)   1:22.044   56
5.  Paffett        McLaren-Mercedes     (B)   1:22.293   57
6.  Rosberg        Williams-Toyota      (B)   1:22.333   64
7.  Coulthard      Red Bull-Renault     (B)   1:22.555   74
8.  Heidfeld       BMW-Sauber           (B)   1:22.946  102
9.  Nakajima       Williams-Toyota      (B)   1:23.031   77
10.  Vettel         Toro Rosso-Ferrari   (B)   1:23.187   74
11.  Chandhok       Red Bull-Renault     (B)   1:23.255   57
12.  Button         Honda                (B)   1:23.358   79
13.  Trulli         Toyota               (B)   1:23.465   54
14.  Kubica         BMW-Sauber           (B)   1:23.488   37
15.  Davidson       Super Aguri-Honda    (B)   1:23.547   80
16.  Filippi        Honda                (B)   1:23.596   74
17.  Bourdais       Toro Rosso-Ferrari   (B)   1:23.753   72
18.  Montagny       Toyota               (B)   1:23.977   45
19.  Klien          Force India-Ferrari  (B)   1:24.446   56
20.  Sutil          Force India-Ferrari  (B)   1:24.537  105
21.  Liuzzi         Force India-Ferrari  (B)   1:24.555   55


A thought, Alonso has been very reluctant to take the Renault seat, he only wants a 1 year deal, Renault want a 2 year commitment. Michael today said when asked if he would be receiving offers after the results, that he didn't think so, and even if he did, that there were no free seats right now. How long till Flavio gives up on Fernando and goes and re-offers Michael the seat like he did last year. I think thats the only team other than Ferrari who Schumi would drive for, and its the only team aside from Ferrari who could afford him.
I have a feeling Fernando is either not racing in 08 or going to Toyota.
Dissapointed in Paffets time. I think Mclaren was expecting a lot more from him in the hopes that he would show enough to take the seat alongside Hamilton next season. Bourdais has to pick it up aswell. I know he's knew to the car aside from a few tests, but he cant afford to be beaten throughout the winter by Vettel.
 
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Reply #33 - Nov 14th, 2007 at 6:38pm
CharlottesDad   Ex Member

 
Craig. wrote on Nov 14th, 2007 at 6:12pm:
Michael today said when asked if he would be receiving offers after the results, that he didn't think so, and even if he did, that there were no free seats right now.


There's one going at a cetain team from Woking...  Grin
 
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Reply #34 - Nov 14th, 2007 at 6:53pm

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And his main sponsor who got him into F1 was Mercedes, headed by one norbert haug. Naaah it'll never happen Cheesy
 
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Reply #35 - Nov 14th, 2007 at 6:58pm

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Craig. wrote on Nov 14th, 2007 at 6:53pm:
And his main sponsor who got him into F1 was Mercedes, headed by one norbert haug. Naaah it'll never happen Cheesy


Quite. I suppose they needed a job for him in 91 when their WSPC outfit was wound up. Schmacher and Karl Wendlinger were two of the Merc dream team - was Heinz Harald Frentzen the other?
 
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Reply #36 - Nov 14th, 2007 at 7:03pm

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I believe so. And if I remember correctly at the time, Frentzen was considered the one with the most to give at the time as he was the fastest of the group. Wendlinger was seen as the one who was most likely to win the title in the future, and Schumi was the money basically. Then they all stepped into an F1 car and it sort of changed. Theres a full 6 pages on how Merc saw there up and coming drivers in the schumi book I was reading.
 
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