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Flaps (Read 83 times)
Sep 5th, 2007 at 3:36pm

sunlord_clave   Offline
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Why exactly are flaps needed when landing? What's the difference between, say, landing with 20 flaps and landing with no flaps at all?
 
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Reply #1 - Sep 5th, 2007 at 3:39pm

bok269   Offline
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This is a question for the flight school forum.


At low speeds, flaps induce drag, slowing down the aircraft.  At high throttle settings, flaps increase rate of climb, allowing shorter takeoff roles.  My reccomendation is that you go through the lessons to learn about all of the different systems.
 

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Reply #2 - Sep 5th, 2007 at 3:46pm

ShrineGuard   Offline
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While flaps do certainly create drag, that's not the most crucial reason they're needed for landing, since there are ways other than drag to slow down an aircraft.  The primary reason you'd want to use flaps while landing is because extending the flaps lowers the minimum speed before you lose lift.  So say you need to keep your speed above 100 while landing without flaps, if you put the flaps down, that minimum speed might be 90.  In short, they generate more lift.

Why aren't the flaps always extended if they create more lift?  Well that's when drag becomes an issue.  After a certain point, the flaps generate too much drag to justify their usefulness.  Any benefits they gave in terms of increased lift would be overridden by decreased speed.

EDIT: I should also say that the drag flaps generate does come in quite useful for allowing steeper landings that normal.  But still, it's only a secondary benefit.  The primary function of flaps is the generation of lift.
 
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Reply #3 - Sep 5th, 2007 at 3:46pm

ozzy72   Offline
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Flaps come in three major categories. Simple (the rear part of the wing drops down), Split (the underside at the back of the wing drops down), and Fowler (the underside at the back of the wing drops down and backwards). They are used primarily for taking off and landing. Some aircraft can use them for better slow-speed manoeuvring.  The use of flaps is directly related to the type of flap and the type of installation on each aircraft.  Some flaps produce nearly all drag and are only used for landing e.g. the Supermarine Seafire III which had only two settings closed or all the way open (with brick-like aerodynamics).  Others have settings that produce more lift and are very valuable in a pinch by lowering the stall speed and increasing your ability to turn at slow speeds (the Fowler) Wink
 

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Reply #4 - Sep 5th, 2007 at 4:40pm

bok269   Offline
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ShrineGuard wrote on Sep 5th, 2007 at 3:46pm:
While flaps do certainly create drag, that's not the most crucial reason they're needed for landing, since there are ways other than drag to slow down an aircraft.  The primary reason you'd want to use flaps while landing is because extending the flaps lowers the minimum speed before you lose lift.  So say you need to keep your speed above 100 while landing without flaps, if you put the flaps down, that minimum speed might be 90.  In short, they generate more lift.

Why aren't the flaps always extended if they create more lift?  Well that's when drag becomes an issue.  After a certain point, the flaps generate too much drag to justify their usefulness.  Any benefits they gave in terms of increased lift would be overridden by decreased speed.

EDIT: I should also say that the drag flaps generate does come in quite useful for allowing steeper landings that normal.  But still, it's only a secondary benefit.  The primary function of flaps is the generation of lift.


thanks for clearing that up.  I stand corrected.
 

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Reply #5 - Sep 5th, 2007 at 5:22pm

Mobius   Offline
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Simply, "to increase the angle of approach without increasing airspeed" - as quoted from something I remember reading a lot during flight training. Wink
 

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Reply #6 - Sep 5th, 2007 at 8:55pm

beaky   Offline
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Everyone's missing the two most  important facts about flaps:

1) Flaps are NOT speed brakes, although yes, of course they will create drag.
But their purpose is to increase the effective camber (curvature between leading and trailing edges) of the wing, thus producing more lift at lower speeds. That's it. When you consider this fact alone, the various situations where various degrees of flap are used make more sense. An excellent analogy: birds' wings. Watch any bird taking off or landing: they don't just flap faster and change the average angle of attack of their wings- they also change the camber of their wings in slow flight or for short landings or takeoffs.

2) Flaps are NOT needed for landing, even in heavy, fast aircraft that come with manuals saying flaps must be used. Flaps just make landings easier and safer, allowing a fairly steep approach angle without a high sink rate or forward rate of speed, which is always helpful.
 

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Reply #7 - Sep 5th, 2007 at 10:24pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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It's all covered pretty well here. Nothing to add, maybe just to re-state that there are different types of flaps, and that they can have different primary and secondary uses, depending on the plane.. AND the situation.

I'll stick with a plane I know well; a Cessna 172... and one of the original questions:  "What's the difference between, say, landing with 20 flaps and landing with no flaps at all? "  In a 172, it's quite literally a football field worth of runway. There's an honest 300 more feet of runway needed for a no-flap landing. And though they are NOT speed brakes or spoilers (a speed brake does not increase lift and a spoiler's purpose is to disrupt lift), they will slow you down and get you down quicker (under normal circumstances.. nothing will lose altitude faster than a no-flaps dive, but that gets you into Vno territory). Also.. on the ground and below stall speed, they do function as speed brakes (but there's a fine line between how much they'll slow you, and how much they reduce wheel brake effectiveness by taking weight off of the tires).

Anything I'd say about landing would be redundant. Just remember that they allow for a steeper, slower descent.

Takeoffs are a little more complicated. Flap use on a soft field (where field length and nearest obstacle are not a concern), is purely to get the wheels up off the soft ground ASAP. In a 172, you start your soft-field takeoff roll with 10 degrees of flaps and the yoke ALL the way back, and when the mains lift off, you immediatley pitch down (even slightly nose-down) to build airspeed in ground-effect so that you can start to climb at Vy and retract the flaps. No matter how much lift they generate, you'll gain altitude faster (against time (best rate)), with no flaps. Short field takeoffs (where runway length is your only worry) are similar to soft field; get the wheels off the ground ASAP. Short field takeoffs where there's an obstacle to clear require a Vx climb (most altitude gained for a distance traveled (best angle). This is where it gets tricky. A 172 will  climb better at Vx with no flaps... but since you start the climb WITH flaps and don't have time to build airspeed you must leave them deployed until clear of the obstacle. If you retract the flaps while climbing at Vx, your rate of climb will decrease until a new AoA is established. In other words.. if you're already flying along and need to gain 1000 feet RIGHT now (mountain looming), you'd simply pitch for Vx. Some visualize that the steeper angle that 10 degrees of flaps would allow is what's called for, but that's not the case. You'll get more altitude across the ground at Vx, no-flaps, than you will at Vx with flaps.
 
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Reply #8 - Sep 27th, 2007 at 5:46am

Mazza   Offline
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also if you put flaps down full you an make a 737 do a endo Grin

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Reply #9 - Sep 27th, 2007 at 5:50am

C   Offline
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beaky wrote on Sep 5th, 2007 at 8:55pm:
2) Flaps are NOT needed for landing, even in heavy, fast aircraft that come with manuals saying flaps must be used. Flaps just make landings easier and safer, allowing a fairly steep approach angle without a high sink rate or forward rate of speed, which is always helpful.


The other thing to say on that point is that flaps allow us to get away with runways which are only a couple of miles long!
 
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Reply #10 - Sep 28th, 2007 at 8:53pm

DaveSims   Offline
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beaky wrote on Sep 5th, 2007 at 8:55pm:
2) Flaps are NOT needed for landing, even in heavy, fast aircraft that come with manuals saying flaps must be used. Flaps just make landings easier and safer, allowing a fairly steep approach angle without a high sink rate or forward rate of speed, which is always helpful.



In the world of airport firefighting (my career field by chance), a heavy fast aircraft landing with no flaps is called an EMERGENCY.
 
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Reply #11 - Sep 29th, 2007 at 8:51am

C   Offline
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DaveSims wrote on Sep 28th, 2007 at 8:53pm:
beaky wrote on Sep 5th, 2007 at 8:55pm:
2) Flaps are NOT needed for landing, even in heavy, fast aircraft that come with manuals saying flaps must be used. Flaps just make landings easier and safer, allowing a fairly steep approach angle without a high sink rate or forward rate of speed, which is always helpful.



In the world of airport firefighting (my career field by chance), a heavy fast aircraft landing with no flaps is called an EMERGENCY. 


Quite. In the type I'll soon be flying a flapless landing is not something to be taken lightly - they are only practiced on touch and goes and overshoots. Landing speed it in the region of 25kts faster and it takes up to a third more runway. Not too mention you'll quite possibly be changing all the tyres and brakes afterwards too (and potentially blocking the runway).
 
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Reply #12 - Oct 1st, 2007 at 12:19am

beaky   Offline
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I should have added "provided there is enough runway" to my earlier comment about flaps not being necessary... Grin

It's true- even an old C172 will seem to float forever with no flaps, even with a good headwind.
But slipping the heck out of it on final helps... Grin
 

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Reply #13 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 2:23am

Ivan   Offline
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beaky wrote on Sep 5th, 2007 at 8:55pm:
Everyone's missing the two most  important facts about flaps:

1) Flaps are NOT speed brakes, although yes, of course they will create drag.
But their purpose is to increase the effective camber (curvature between leading and trailing edges) of the wing, thus producing more lift at lower speeds. That's it. When you consider this fact alone, the various situations where various degrees of flap are used make more sense. An excellent analogy: birds' wings. Watch any bird taking off or landing: they don't just flap faster and change the average angle of attack of their wings- they also change the camber of their wings in slow flight or for short landings or takeoffs.

Depends on what the plane designe had in his mind when drawing the plane. On a Yak-18s and Yak-52s the flaps are just one thing: Airbrakes.
 

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