Simviation Forum - Another display-teams poll

May 27^th, 2007 at 6:42pm

spitfire boy Offline
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Focusing on the Reds this time Wink

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Reply #1 - May 27^th, 2007 at 7:15pm

C Offline
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As far as I can see, the Reds will continue with the Hawk T1 for the near and middle term future. As the T2/Mk128 enters service then I expect the T1 will not have any availability/attrition issues, and even when the T1 is withdrawn completely from the flying training system it may remain with 100Sqn and the Reds anyway.

The Eurofighter and F-35 would never be considered - they are too expensive and valuable as frontline assets. The main purpose of the Reds is to promote the RAF and sell BAE Systems products - mainly Hawks - the value of using any other airframe would be minimal.

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Reply #2 - May 27^th, 2007 at 7:19pm

Craig. Offline
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while 9 typhoons in red would look and sound awesome I am in agreement with charlie. Plus the hawk is the perfect little display plane for it.

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Reply #3 - May 27^th, 2007 at 7:39pm

C Offline
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Craig. wrote on May 27^th, 2007 at 7:19pm:

while 9 typhoons in red would look and sound awesome I am in agreement with charlie. Plus the hawk is the perfect little display plane for it.

...and even more importantly has two seats - perfect for carrying Blue Peter presenters/journos/VIPs etc...

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Reply #4 - May 27^th, 2007 at 7:45pm

Tweek Ex Member

Well there's supposed to be a Typhoon 9-ship flypast in London on the 16th June (Queen's flypast), so you may get a little 'what if?' there. Wink

Another point about using the Hawk (I suppose Charlie may have covered it with the BAE Systems comment) is that it's the only pure-British aircraft left in RAF service suitable for the job. That says something in itself, to be using a truely British aircraft to represent the RAF.

Thunderbirds - F-16 (American)
Blue Angels - F-18 (American)
Patrouille de France - Alpha Jet (French/German)
Frecce Tricolori - MB339 (Italian)
Russian Knights - Su-27 (Russian)
Swifts - MiG-29 (Russian)
Patrulla Aguila - C.101 Aviojet (Spanish)

See, they all do it! Of course there are obvious exceptions - Asas de Portugal, Turkish Stars, Royal Jordanian Falcons, Midnight Hawks, etc etc.

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Reply #5 - May 27^th, 2007 at 7:50pm

C Offline
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Quote:

Another point about using the Hawk (I suppose Charlie may have covered it with the BAE Systems comment) is that it's the only pure-British aircraft left in RAF service suitable for the job. That says something in itself, to be using a truely British aircraft to represent the RAF.

Of course, a big maybe is that it's feasible that in a few years time the Reds may end up using whatever is used to replace the Tucano (if the Tincan's replacement ends up being a jet).

And that almost certainly wont be British (Swiss-American/Brazilian/Swiss or hopefully Italian!)

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Reply #6 - May 27^th, 2007 at 8:00pm

Hagar Offline
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The RAF display team has been part of the Central Flying School since 1964. The pilots were originally senior CFS flying instructors showing off the capabilities of the aircraft used for training RAF pilots on. Advanced training types are much cheaper to operate & more suitable than supersonic front-line fighters for this sort of work. The Hawk is ideal for the formation displays the Red Arrows are famous for. There is no reason to change it.

Short history of the Red Arrows

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Reply #7 - May 27^th, 2007 at 8:07pm

Heathaze Ex Member

Silly choices to be honest (only in my opinion of course). With the RAF already suffering from budget cuts there hardly likely to use a frontline fast jet in such large numbers, the costs would be extremely high. Why change from a proven formula (ie a jet trainer).

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Reply #8 - May 27^th, 2007 at 9:46pm

Canuck. Offline
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Charlie wrote on May 27^th, 2007 at 7:15pm:

As far as I can see, the Reds will continue with the Hawk T1 for the near and middle term future. As the T2/Mk128 enters service then I expect the T1 will not have any availability/attrition issues, and even when the T1 is withdrawn completely from the flying training system it may remain with 100Sqn and the Reds anyway.

The Eurofighter and F-35 would never be considered - they are too expensive and valuable as frontline assets. The main purpose of the Reds is to promote the RAF and sell BAE Systems products - mainly Hawks - the value of using any other airframe would be minimal.

they will probably be like the Snowbirds...the CAF replaced the CT-114 Tutor with the CT-155 Hawk in 2000...the Snowbirds are the only squadron using the Tutor...the reds will probably be like that!

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Reply #9 - May 27^th, 2007 at 11:13pm

Jared Offline
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it wouldn't be the same if they switched Wink

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Reply #10 - May 28^th, 2007 at 4:24am

spitfire boy Offline
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Jared wrote on May 27^th, 2007 at 11:13pm:

it wouldn't be the same if they switched Wink

I'll bet you people said that when the Red Arrows changed from Folland Gnats to Hawks! Wink

Quote:

there hardly likely to use a frontline fast jet in such large numbers, the costs would be extremely high.

The Thunderbirds and Blue Angels use front-line jets - however, I'm not in agreement that that's a good thing - too much speed, not enough agility. I just wanted to know what everybody else thought.

If the Reds switched to the Typhoon, they wouldn't lose any of the agility they can utilise with the hawks - the Eurofighter is extremely agile - and imagine the possibilities of using a VTOL aircraft (F-35) to display!

Comments welcome!! Wink

EDIT; oh, and by the way, this is my 100th post. Just wanted to flag that for myself, really!

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Reply #11 - May 28^th, 2007 at 5:00am

Hagar Offline
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spitfire boy wrote on May 28^th, 2007 at 4:24am:

Jared wrote on May 27^th, 2007 at 11:13pm:

it wouldn't be the same if they switched Wink

I'll bet you people said that when the Red Arrows changed from Folland Gnats to Hawks! Wink

Quote:

there hardly likely to use a frontline fast jet in such large numbers, the costs would be extremely high.

The Thunderbirds and Blue Angels use front-line jets - however, I'm not in agreement that that's a good thing - too much speed, not enough agility. I just wanted to know what everybody else thought.

Horses for courses. They fly a different type of display.

Quote:

If the Reds switched to the Typhoon, they wouldn't lose any of the agility they can utilise with the hawks - the Eurofighter is extremely agile - and imagine the possibilities of using a VTOL aircraft (F-35) to display!

Comments welcome!! Wink

You just have to compare the unit cost of the aircraft to see this isn't practical unless you drastically reduce the number of aircraft in the team. The Hawk was quoted at £18 million in 2003 & the latest unit cost estimate for the Typhoon is £64.8 million (each) across Tranche 1 and Tranche 2 aircraft. http://www.armedforces.co.uk/raf/listings/l0028.html

The Red Arrows operate 13 Hawk aircraft. They still use four of the original airframes they were supplied with when they replaced the Gnat in 1979. http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/behindthescenes/hawkaircraft.cfm

Quote:

EDIT; oh, and by the way, this is my 100th post. Just wanted to flag that for myself, really!

We had noticed. Tongue

Take it easy. Post count means nothing & I should know that more than most. Roll Eyes

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Reply #12 - May 28^th, 2007 at 5:37am

Heathaze Ex Member

spitfire boy wrote on May 28^th, 2007 at 4:24am:

Quote:

there hardly likely to use a frontline fast jet in such large numbers, the costs would be extremely high.

The Thunderbirds and Blue Angels use front-line jets - however, I'm not in agreement that that's a good thing - too much speed, not enough agility. I just wanted to know what everybody else thought.

As Hagar right states, they fly a completely different display. Besides, the American air arms have a lot more money to play around with than the RAF, they can afford to operate expensive front line fighters in that manner.

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Reply #13 - May 28^th, 2007 at 5:39am

spitfire boy Offline
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Hagar wrote on May 28^th, 2007 at 5:00am:

spitfire boy wrote on May 28^th, 2007 at 4:24am:

Jared wrote on May 27^th, 2007 at 11:13pm:

it wouldn't be the same if they switched Wink

I'll bet you people said that when the Red Arrows changed from Folland Gnats to Hawks! Wink

Quote:

there hardly likely to use a frontline fast jet in such large numbers, the costs would be extremely high.

The Thunderbirds and Blue Angels use front-line jets - however, I'm not in agreement that that's a good thing - too much speed, not enough agility. I just wanted to know what everybody else thought.

Horses for courses. They fly a different type of display.

Quote:

If the Reds switched to the Typhoon, they wouldn't lose any of the agility they can utilise with the hawks - the Eurofighter is extremely agile - and imagine the possibilities of using a VTOL aircraft (F-35) to display!

Comments welcome!! Wink

You just have to compare the unit cost of the aircraft to see this isn't practical unless you drastically reduce the number of aircraft in the team. The Hawk was quoted at £18 million in 2003 & the latest unit cost estimate for the Typhoon is £64.8 million (each) across Tranche 1 and Tranche 2 aircraft. http://www.armedforces.co.uk/raf/listings/l0028.html

The Red Arrows operate 13 Hawk aircraft. They still use four of the original airframes they were supplied with when they replaced the Gnat in 1979. http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/behindthescenes/hawkaircraft.cfm

Quote:

EDIT; oh, and by the way, this is my 100th post. Just wanted to flag that for myself, really!

We had noticed. Tongue

Take it easy. Post count means nothing & I should know that more than most. Roll Eyes

I know all this well - I agree with you, for crying out loud!! Wink

I was just weighing up the good and bad points for both. Please don't take it personally.

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Reply #14 - May 28^th, 2007 at 10:41am

Tom... Offline
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Quote:

spitfire boy wrote on May 28^th, 2007 at 4:24am:

Quote:

there hardly likely to use a frontline fast jet in such large numbers, the costs would be extremely high.

The Thunderbirds and Blue Angels use front-line jets - however, I'm not in agreement that that's a good thing - too much speed, not enough agility. I just wanted to know what everybody else thought.

As Hagar right states, they fly a completely different display. Besides, the American air arms have a lot more money to play around with than the RAF, they can afford to operate expensive front line fighters in that manner.

But still they dont get that much of a choice in what they get, the frontline squadrons get all the new aircraft and the display teams get whats left

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