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Some questions: Scenery (Read 1768 times)
Dec 30th, 2006 at 8:44am

Daube   Offline
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Hi all,

I am still discovering all the new stuff in FSX and so far I must admit I am very impressed.
Of course I have been reading on this forum almost everything that was related to FSX, but you know, some things just have to be seen to understand.

However, I still have some questions regarding some tweaking.

Just like almost everybody here, I have installed most of the replacement autogen textures to improve frame rates. Now, the only thing left to install are those files (or is it just one file ? Can't remember) that decreased the variety of the autogen to same video memory space. If I understood well, taking the trees as example, FSX has many different kind of trees for one type of vegetation (jungle, pines, "normal" trees etc...) and this tweak will reduce the number to 2 or 3 different trees, but not the density.

The questions:
- has anybody tried it yet ?
- are the frames really improved ?
- is it only the trees, or is it something similar for the city buildings ?
- is the visual impact as minor as described in the readme ?

Thanks in advance for your infos Smiley
 
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Reply #1 - Dec 30th, 2006 at 11:41am

justpassingthrough   Offline
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The questions:
- has anybody tried it yet ?  

 YES. It does not work as well as it is said to but does better on slower systems because they will usually show poorer quality graphics in FSX and the user will never know what they are missing anyway.

- are the frames really improved ?  

It will but do not expect a huge jump, just smoother and you should not run more than 24 locked. I use to try and run my frame lock higher thinking it would be better and I have recently learned a very huge lesson about that and will not be doing that anymore. With it locked lower the scenery is much, much crisper and it flys smooth and without annoying consistent stutters.

- is it only the trees, or is it something similar for the city buildings ?

From what I read there is no benefit to changing the building autogen files


- is the visual impact as minor as described in the readme ?

Visual impact for what... the texture fixes or the tree autogen?  If you mean all the texture fixes, I totally disagree. It probably won’t show as bad on slow hardware but it looked terrible on my system. I will never do those texture fixes again. The patch that is coming out will probably force those who did such fixes to completely reinstall.

If you mean the autogen tree change, I only notice the difference in lack of variety of trees when I am very very low to the ground and only because I ran FSX without the fix in rual areas so I know what it will display, Otherwise I would never know the difference.



I can only tell you what I know from using the texture fixes. At one time I did them all. FSX did not look very good and had problems running smooth  although the frame rate was up as compared to without texture changes. What I found out after I had done all that is those texture fixes on my hardware cause the sim to run and look worse that before.

I asked one of the local experts here for some help and he had me reinstall FSX but only reduce the building textures 50% and install the autogen tree fix that you are asking about. He also said that even those fixes were unnecessary if the video card was a 78-7900 series or better and had 512mb memory. Afterwards he sent me a list of configuration tweaks and slider settings which in combination with the Windows tweaking he posted here at Simviation, and BIOS settings he helped me set up, along with having me purchase 2 gigs of memory has made FSX come to life and fly like I never thought it would.

I am running a 7800GS 256mb PCIe on AMD4000+ and 2gb of memory.

He did say that slower systems can benefit from the texture fixes but only because they will not display FSX as well anyway and the user would not be missing anything by doing it. All it will do is help increase the resources so more visuals can be seen but the quality of them would be significantly degraded for better hardware which is what I discovered.

The autogen tree fix will only help in areas where a large amount of trees are rendered. I was also told it was important to restrict the amount of autogen for both buildings and tress by using the configuration file line edits. For me, this is what works with the autogen slider set to DENSE (3) and the radius set to high or 4.5:

TERRAIN_MAX_AUTOGEN_TREES_PER_CELL=3500
TERRAIN_MAX_AUTOGEN_BUILDINGS_PER_CELL=1000

I was told if I see stutters to reduce them to this:
TERRAIN_MAX_AUTOGEN_TREES_PER_CELL=1500
TERRAIN_MAX_AUTOGEN_BUILDINGS_PER_CELL=700

But so far the stutters I am getting are not that bad and I would rather have the stunning visual scenery over a few small stutters here and there.


And he had me trim the fiber engine back a tad from .33 to .25

FIBER_FRAME_TIME_FRACTION=0.25

and disable the default flight preload:

[Main]
DisablePreload=1

With those edits and a few others he sent me, I am lockled at 18fps in city areas and increase it to 22 once out of a major city radius. Both run exceptionaly well and the scenery is always sharp and clear in the distance.



 
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Reply #2 - Dec 30th, 2006 at 2:04pm

Daube   Offline
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Wow this was very detailled and usefull.
I have finally given a try to those tweaks for autogen.
You said not to expect a huge jump ? I tested on Seattle with autogen density set to the max.
Without those files: single digit FPS
With those files: 20 FPS locked.

I am using a 6800 GT.
I also installed the reduced autogen textures for clouds, trees and buildings.
I made all the FSX.cfg tweaks that canbe found on the FAQ.
Despite all that, it was still not possible to push the autogen past "normal" without suffering a big impact on the frames.
And now thanks to your advises, I have installed those "limited autogen" files, and the result is just GREAT !

The only remaining problem is the loading of the scenery while panning around or flying forward. My computer has just 1 Gb of RAM, this is clearly not enough, there are too much hard drive accesses that slow down everything. Also, the "specific autogen", that is the buildings (skycrappers etc...) that are part of the scenery still have their beautifull-but-FPS-killers textures, so I must keep my Scenery complexity on "normal". But I'm talking about really big cities like Seattle. Small cities are no problems. And even in Seattle, if I fly over the suburbs, I get my 20 FPS. It's just when those skycrappers are on the screen that I get single digit FPS again... oh well  Roll Eyes
 
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Reply #3 - Dec 30th, 2006 at 3:49pm

justpassingthrough   Offline
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For pan I was given this:

[BufferPools]
PoolSize=2500000


It fixed my cockpit and spot pan stutters

Also, before I had help I was running this:

TEXTURE_BANDWIDTH_MULT=400

Which I was told is way to high for FSX and is different than in FS9 because of the rendering engine changes. I reduced it to this:

TEXTURE_BANDWIDTH_MULT=80

And many scenery stutters went away.

I was told the slower video cards will probably allow better flight with the texture fixes. The sim will naturally blur them a bit because of the slower system and things like reduced cloud textures will look better than if one is running a faster card. The reduced cloud textures made my clouds look 'blocky' and not very realistic looking.  What I did not like about the reduced ground textures was the quality of them when I looked down. Instead of being sharp and being able to see very clearly the streets, sidewalks and house lots, everything had a 'muddy' look. 

I do not understand completely why but I was getting scenery stutters with them too.

I guess with a slower system it is a trade-off. With the reduced textures you get the flight dynamics back in all their glory. I have seen people post they notice no difference between FS9 and FSX for flight dynamics. I found before I had help setting things up FSX was no where near as responsive for correct flight dynamics. I uninstalled FS9 completely because it does not fly anything like FSX when it is set up right. For me the flight dynamics are a bit more important than scenery.
 
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Reply #4 - Dec 30th, 2006 at 6:11pm

Daube   Offline
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Yep, I uninstalled my FS9 as well. The flight dynamics in FSX may be improved but I could not really notice it yet. What really striked me is the beauty of the default scenery, the efficiency of the default autogen (even tweaked like hell), and this moving head in the VC like in IL-2.

Let's be honnest, after installing FSX, I tried to run FS9 again to enjoy some smooth performance... I did fly... 3 minutes or so. Then I uninstalled. At that time, my FS9 looked more beautifull than my incorrectly-tweaked FSX, but the flight feeling in the VC was missing too much.

Concerning the new values you provided, I'm a little bit surprised:
- For the bufferpools, mine is set much Higher, like 8 millions. I thought the higher the better, was I wrong ? The "default" value given on the tweak webpage was 5 millions if I remember well... Maybe 8 is too much...

- for the texture_bandwith_mult, I will have a try. I was playing with 600 (saw Mango on FS2004.com forums using that value), but nobosy's really sure of how those tweaks really work Smiley
 
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Reply #5 - Dec 31st, 2006 at 3:27am

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The maximum value is 5000000. I read up on it and the person from the FSX development team that originally posted bufferpools also stated very clearly 2500000 would provide the best balance between the resources and the tweak. He said any higher and you stand to significantly loose elsewhere but that 5000000 was the maximum value it would accept.

Texture bandwidth multiplier is max at 400. 400 is the max in both FS9 and FSX. That has been posted by both FS9 and FSX developers. If the value (or any value) of a line in the config file is not present or is not within the specified program range set by the developers when the sim is booted, the value will default. The default values when such things occur are unknown for many of the settings.

According to the information I read some time ago on these forums posted by NickN about tweaking the FS9.cfg file for texture bandwidth, it would be quite impossible for a value of 600 to work unless the person is running a 1gig video card.

The number multiplies a hidden value called the TextureMaxLoad. By default that is 3. The TextureMaxLoad is the number of 256x256 (in FS9) textures to be loading in KB to the system. The TEXTURE_BANDWIDTH_MULT does exactly that, it multiplies that number. So that would mean Mango is loading 600x3 (1024x1024 in KB) assuming he has not installed a texture reduction tweak and even if he has and is running 256x256 textures, it is mathematically impossible for a video card memory of less than 1gb to work a value of 600 for the multiplier

The value has simply defaulted to a number that his system likes and he thinks 600 is working.

NickN told me the TextureMaxLoad= value can be edited into the FS9.cfg file however he said that setting is not available in FSX because the rendering engine is different. I used NickN's FS9.cfg file tweaks and that sim never looked or flew better. The values he posted for FS9 in the area we are discussing were:

TEXTURE_BANDWIDTH_MULT=160 (and reduce to 100-120 if stutters occur)
TextureMaxLoad=8 (reduce to 6 on slower cards)

It was stated that 128mb cards may not be able to handle that setting and that 256mb cards were recommended for its use. If a 128 card is used, a value of 6 / 80 may work.

160x8=1280
400x3=1200 (default TextureMaxLoad)

That produces almost the same total value, however the difference is the fiber engine is directed to load the amount in KB of 8 256x256 textures (instead of 3 256x256 textures) and reserve the resources for the the bandwidth. That forces the ground textures to take priority and the fiber engine will then sharpen them before it does anything else. When correctly tuned with the other settings in the config file the difference in FS9 is night and day when it comes to stutters and scenery loads.

FSX uses FIBER_FRAME_TIME_FRACTION and the TextureMaxLoad is no longer a variable.


It was explained to me that slower video cards may like a higher multiplier in FSX simply because the user is forced to reduce the sliders in order to get the sim to fly smooth. In doing so, the multiplier can be raised and a higher value can have a positive affect. However, on a system that has the sliders tweaked up and is running under stresses, that value is best reduced. The amount is based on the system and what is being rendered. Considering the textures are 1024x1024, a multiplier of 400 on a system that is trying to render autogen and other models, is quite ridiculous unless the user has a superior video adapter. A setting of 60-120 would be more reasonable, 80 being the middle ground and is what works best on my setup.  


« Last Edit: Dec 31st, 2006 at 5:01am by justpassingthrough »  
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Reply #6 - Dec 31st, 2006 at 6:55am

Daube   Offline
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Thanks a lot for all those details, now I understand.
So taking your examples, I should set myself the Texture_max_load to 8, and the texture_bandwith_mult to 300, since my video card has 256 Mb of RAM ?
Hmm.... I guess I will try first with 80, then 160, then 300. Smiley
 
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Reply #7 - Dec 31st, 2006 at 7:02am

Daube   Offline
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Ok I have a problem with your explanations.
You were talking about TextureMaxLoad.
I don't have that yet in my FSX.cfg. The only thing I have is Texture_Max_Load that is set to 1024, and which seems to determine the maximum resolution of the loaded texture. I set it to 8 and the texture of the aircraft preview was just a big blur Smiley I guess it loaded the texture in 8x8 pixels format  Grin

So, is your parameter name correct ? And if yes, in which section of the FSX.cfg should I insert it ?
 
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Reply #8 - Dec 31st, 2006 at 4:22pm

justpassingthrough   Offline
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Daube wrote on Dec 31st, 2006 at 7:02am:
Ok I have a problem with your explanations.
You were talking about TextureMaxLoad.
I don't have that yet in my FSX.cfg. The only thing I have is Texture_Max_Load that is set to 1024, and which seems to determine the maximum resolution of the loaded texture. I set it to 8 and the texture of the aircraft preview was just a big blur Smiley I guess it loaded the texture in 8x8 pixels format  Grin

So, is your parameter name correct ? And if yes, in which section of the FSX.cfg should I insert it ?




You have misunderstood what I posted.


I was using the TextureMaxLoad= value to show you that a texture bandwidth multiplier of 600 was impossible. That TextureMaxLoad= value is NOT the max load texture size (1024) found under the [GRAPHICS] heading. It is a value that the FS9 developers know about, was never put in the file and can be added below the TEXTURE_BANDWIDTH_MULT in the FS9.cfg file.

It is a hidden value (defaulted to 3) which can be added to the FS9.cfg file and set higher ort lower but in FSX that value is no longer a variable and CAN NOT be edited in. In FSX it is a constant which can not be changed.

Your math is also incorrect for its use in FS9. I understand you were trying to use it for FSX (which will not work) but lets assume this is FS9, with a TEXTURE_BANDWIDTH_MULT of 300 and a TextureMaxLoad= of 8, that would mean you are loading the equivalent in kilobytes of 8 256x256 textures and multiplying that by 300, something your video card would never do.

I will try to explain it as it was explained to me.

Let’s assume the average 256x256 ground texture size in FS9 is 50KB. 3x50KB= 150KB

150KB x 8=1200KB or 1.2 megabytes

300 x 1.2 = 360 megabytes so it is impossible for a 256mb card to run that setting.

160 x1.2 = 192 megabytes. That would work because it leaves overhead for the 256 memory on the video card. The load and multiplier values may need to be tweaked for the card and system.

What I posted was the maximum values most systems would be able to use @ 160/8

In FSX the only number you have control over is the TEXTURE_BANDWIDTH_MULT and since the rendering engine was changed and the average ground texture is now around 690KB (instead of 50KB) that changes things significantly. Using a multiplier of 400 is quite off the wall assuming the system is being loaded down to render allot of items.

As you can now see, Mango running a 600 Texture bandwidth multiplier even with a default TextureMaxLoad of 3 is completely impossible unless he has a 1gig video card. The sim is simply defaulting to a lower value because 400 is the maximum that setting will recognize.


Let’s assume that even though it can not be changed as it could in FS9, FSX has the same base TextureMaxLoad= value of 3

That means, if an average texture size is 682KB (682,000) then 3 of them equal 2,046,000. The default TEXTURE_BANDWIDTH_MULT in FSX is 30. That means you are loading 30 x 2,046,000 into the video memory or about 61.38MB. We can raise the TEXTURE_BANDWIDTH_MULT in FSX to a value that better suits a 256mb video card. With a value of 80 instead of 30, we are more than doubling the texture bandwidth to 163.7MB

The idea is to increase the value as much as possible, leaving enough overhead for the speed of the memory chips on the video card and not over taxing the circuits. Therefore a value of 400 on a system that is already rendering quite a bit from sliders being pushed up, is way over the top. On slower systems where the sliders may be lower and not many buildings and other items are being rendered, a higher multiplier can be better because the card is speeding up texture loads and the number of items being rendered is low.

A realistic TEXTURE_BANDWIDTH_MULT number in FSX with texture fixes, assuming they were cut by 50% and the video card is 256mb, would be about 140-160. But even with that, the video card has to render MORE than just textures so the number is based on a balance between the models being rendered and the texture loads. In my case 80 works best because I am using the original textures and running the sliders a bit high. If I reduced my autogen and scenery sliders I could raise the texture bandwidth but I probably would not be able to exceed 120 or stutters would start appearing.


I hope I explained that correctly. It was how it was explained to me and I took what I posted from my notes.






 
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Reply #9 - Jan 1st, 2007 at 1:48pm

Daube   Offline
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Your explanations are clear and I could understand them well, thanks again for that  Cheesy
I have tried with the settings you recommended before your last reply, since I could figure out were to place that hidden parameter.

The results are just great ! Now, flying the Jenny over Innsbruck, I get a stable FPS average (most of the times locked at 20, then when panning slows down temporary to 15), and the disk accesses are greatly reduced, involving less stutters while panning around.  Smiley

That's cool, this sim is performing better and better. Still too heavy on the ressources to fully enjoy the liners over big cities are any other fast jets (my scenery loading is too slow for that, I would quickly get blurries), but for any propeeler aircrafts, the experience is great. And for the gliding, the sim has just become perfect !  Cool

Too bad I cannot spot those birds Angry
 
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Reply #10 - Jan 1st, 2007 at 6:11pm

justpassingthrough   Offline
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Daube wrote on Jan 1st, 2007 at 1:48pm:
Your explanations are clear and I could understand them well, thanks again for that  Cheesy
I have tried with the settings you recommended before your last reply, since I could figure out were to place that hidden parameter.

The results are just great ! Now, flying the Jenny over Innsbruck, I get a stable FPS average (most of the times locked at 20, then when panning slows down temporary to 15), and the disk accesses are greatly reduced, involving less stutters while panning around.  Smiley

That's cool, this sim is performing better and better. Still too heavy on the ressources to fully enjoy the liners over big cities are any other fast jets (my scenery loading is too slow for that, I would quickly get blurries), but for any propeeler aircrafts, the experience is great. And for the gliding, the sim has just become perfect !  Cool

Too bad I cannot spot those birds Angry



If you are looking for the animals and other eye candy, unfortunately that requires high settings. I am not 100% sure but I think the birds are controlled by GA Traffic slider for free flight and I know they are in some of the missions. You may also want to look in the national park areas such as Yellowstone and The Grand Tetons.


Also, from what I was told, FSX actually learns the system and will adjust scenery accordingly IF, and only IF you are not over-taxing the system. It will smooth out as you use it more and more until you make a change to the sliders then it resets itself and the optimizer starts over.. it requires flight time to balance out again. It uses the fiber frame and other available configuration settings to trim back in order to hit the target frame lock which is why it is important to lock it at a number that is reasonable for the hardware being used. With a 7800gs pcie I lock at 18 in the city and 22 in the country. Over hours of use the sim has started getting smoother everywhere. I thought I was going nuts until it was told about that ability.
 
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Reply #11 - Jan 2nd, 2007 at 8:49am

Daube   Offline
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Interesting...
My settings regarding the scenery are almost all maxed out when I fly out of big cities, but my GA traffic is set quite low... I will try to modify that. Once again, thanks for the info !
 
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Reply #12 - Jan 2nd, 2007 at 10:29am

kilotango   Offline
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OHH brother.
This is what i call information.
Thank you very much MILTESTPILOT
 
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