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Soon-to-be pilot-in-training has a question (Read 1911 times)
Oct 12th, 2006 at 4:25pm

martianfrogz   Offline
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If you have your PPL but not your Instrument Rating, is it OK to use VORs for navigation during VFR? (i.e. VFR conditions, 225 nm flight, but would like to go VOR to VOR)
 

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Reply #1 - Oct 12th, 2006 at 5:04pm

Mobius   Offline
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You can use whatever you want, VOR, ADF, GPS, LORAN (Grin), whatever there is out there, just as long as you don't fly into the clouds. Wink  When I learned, I was taught how to use VORs as my main radio navigation tool, in conjunction with Pilotage and Dead-reckoning.  We would usually plan cross country flights with three legs, and use each form of navigation on each leg, but would focus on one form more-so on one leg than another.  I also had to learn to navigate with NDBs and the ADF, but I never actually used it to navigate, we only used it to listen to AM radio. Roll Eyes  Also, when I learned, there were no GPS systems installed in any of the aircraft, but since then, the airport I fly out of has bought a "newer" C172 and they installed a nice Garmin GPS/Radio stack and it's pretty fun to play around with, and it would probably be very helpful in cross-country flying, but I've never done a cross-country flight in it.  You can bet that you won't be forced to not use something that could make your flight safer and easier. Wink

Good luck with your training. Smiley
 

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Reply #2 - Oct 12th, 2006 at 6:44pm

martianfrogz   Offline
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listening to AM radio with the ADF? I'll keep that in mind... Grin Grin Grin Thanks for the answer and the good luck...probably start around next year in lessons when I turn 16. By the way, could you explain LORAN to me?
 

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Reply #3 - Oct 12th, 2006 at 10:43pm

Mobius   Offline
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Grin Don't worry about LORAN, it's an old form of navigation for aircraft and boats, but it's really never used anymore, at least in aviation I don't think.  There's a bit about it in the AIM, and that's all I've really read about it, and I don't even know what kind of instrumentation you would need to recieve the signals. Wink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LORAN

P.S.  If you're interested in starting early, you can start lessons at age 15, so you can solo on your 16th birthday, and get your license on you 17th, just if your interested.
 

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Reply #4 - Oct 13th, 2006 at 9:00am

martianfrogz   Offline
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Thanks for the LORAN info. Smiley I think if I started NOW, I could just make it and solo on my 16th...in 4 months...but I doubt that's gonna happen (starting now). 2 1/2 years ago I took an "introductory" flight, "introductory" because we got into stalls and steep turns and such due to my Flight Sim experience and the instructor said I was a natural pilot...and...I haven't been in the real Grin air for close to 2 years.... Sad ya know, so, now I'm dying to get back in a Cessna.
 

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Reply #5 - Oct 13th, 2006 at 10:20am

martianfrogz   Offline
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How exactly DO the VASI and PAPI lights work? (i.e.- How do they change color in regards to glideslope?)
 

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Reply #6 - Oct 13th, 2006 at 11:49am

Mobius   Offline
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I'm not exactly sure how it works, but different colored light, usually red and white light is projected at different angles so when you're too high you see only white light, and when you're too low, you see only red light, and when you're on a 3 degree glideslope, you see both red and white lights.  The main difference between FS and the real world is in the real world, the lights don't instantly change like they do in FS, so you'll often see a mix of red and white lights, which makes it look like one light is pink, which is kind of strange.  Here's a little diagram of how the light is projected, and if you are near an airport in the fog, you can sometimes see something similar to the diagram from the light reflecting off the fog.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VASI
 

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Reply #7 - Oct 13th, 2006 at 12:00pm

martianfrogz   Offline
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that's kinda what I was thinking, but I wasn't sure....you are a great help! By the way, what licenses do you have?
 

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Reply #8 - Oct 13th, 2006 at 12:50pm

Mobius   Offline
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Only my private right now, but once I get the $$$ I'm hoping to get my instrument rating, or if the Air Force will let me fly I'll be getting it through them. Wink
 

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Reply #9 - Oct 13th, 2006 at 4:07pm

beaky   Offline
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Short answer: yes. Long answer:

You will learn instrument navigation procedures while working on your private ticket, including some time "under the hood"- that is, with some sort of vision-limiting device on your head so you cannot see outside.


It's fun, especially doing "unusual attitude recovery" when the CFI upsets the airplane somewhat and you have to recover on instruments alone. Well, I enjoy it, anyway... Grin

Once you get your PPL, you are even allowed to fly "under the hood", with another licensed pilot aboard, but YOU MAY NOT FILE IFR.

Prior to that, you will very likely learn how to use VORs, GPS, etc as you learn basic navigation: navaids and even ILS are there for all pilots to use, not just instrument-rated pilots on IFR plans. You MUST know how to go from A to B with chart, compass and clock alone, but man, those navaids sure come in handy, for planning and executing your flight, and also for getting "found" when you are , shall we say, "positionally uncertain".  Grin

However, I would not recommend flying a published instrument approach on your own before you start your instrument training, only because even on VFR days, people are using them for practice or as part of an IFR plan (you can file IFR on a VMC day if you like, IF you're rated)... there could be people under the hood in that area, and although they must have a safety pilot or instructor aboard for that, you can imagine it's not a good idea to mix it up with IFR training flights unless you are under ATC control. Creates stress for all concerned, and invites trouble.

Which leads to a general point about VORs and even GPS waypoints: it can be crowded near them sometimes, so watch out!! If you are VFR and using a VOR to navigate, try not to pass right over the station. Otherwise you might meet somebody by accident. It happens...

There may be a legal way to shoot an ILS approach or whatever as a VFR pilot or primary student by request, but I've never done it. I've used the ILS glideslope on approaches while VFR, but only when the tower was vectoring me to the runway in the normal fashion.

For a better understanding of VASI, look below.

Basically, VASI and PAPI lights consist of different-colored hi-intensity lamps at different angles, calibrated to suit the requirements for the particularly runway and airport environment.
This page is ripped directly from the Federal Aviation Regulations and Airman's InformationManual, or FAR/AIM; I highly revcommend you get yourself a current copy ASAP, as well as a Private Pilot Handbook (also published by the FAA), and start studying.
No, you don't have to be a student pilot to buy them.  The more you bone up on this stuff in advance, the faster you'll move along during your training.


http://www.faa.gov/ATPubs/AIM/Chap2/aim0201.html




But all you need to remember is how it should look!! Grin
 

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Reply #10 - Oct 13th, 2006 at 8:43pm

martianfrogz   Offline
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one word...WOW Shocked. Lots of information there, but it all makes sense. Thanks! I'll try to swing by or get my dad to swing by the airport on his way to work and get copies of the books.
 

...&&Currently flying around the world! Coming to an airport near you!!!
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Reply #11 - Oct 13th, 2006 at 11:53pm

Mobius   Offline
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You can usually find the FAR/AIMs at any bookstore (I got my 2006 copy at Barnes and Noble), and you can get most any reading material you would need from here...http://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/?trackingId=701. Smiley
 

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Reply #12 - Nov 25th, 2006 at 10:11pm

flaminghotsauce   Offline
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Quote:
You can bet that you won't be forced to not use something that could make your flight safer and easier.


Not necessarily true. I was not allowed to do my commercial cross country time building flights in one aircraft- the one that had the GPS. Even though I promised not to turn it on. It was all old fashioned navigation during this time. "NO GPS" was the school rule. It was my favorite aircraft, though, and I always wanted to fly it. It was a '64 Cessna, with the 6 cylinder up front. It was heavier than the rest of the fleet, and I had a good relationship with the old man. We landed well together. IFR ticket in that ship.

I had a blast using VORs to triangulate. I would even figure a position to begin my descent using them, for fun. I still do this with my charts when flying the slower aircraft on FS. It would be just as easy to use DME or the GPS for distance info, but what fun is that? Smiley
 
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Reply #13 - Nov 27th, 2006 at 7:02am

beaky   Offline
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Flaminghotsauce is right...
When you think about it, early dependence on GPS can , in fact, make you less safe, because you'll be at a loss if it goes belly-up.
The reason I'm such a cranky old curmudgeon about emphasizing "chart, compass, and clock" as well as good old-fashioned "look out the window" navigation is because those things are far less likely to fail than even the simplest GPS or any ground-based navaid.

It worries me that new students starting in GPS-equipped aircraft are gazing longingly at it while their instructors are trying to explain how to navigate withoutit... they're thinking "who needs all that mumbo-jumbo when I have the Magic Box here?"
They're forgetting that the Magic Box will become a paperweight in the event of an electrical failure or if the uplink is lost, whereas the wet compass, the chart, and your wristwatch will still be there for you.

GPS is a fantastic, wonderful innovation... but it must be considered icing on the cake, whereas the basic VFR navigation skills must be thoroughly baked, from scratch, first (stupid analogy, but you see my point).

And expanding on that notion: until they do away with all the NDBs, I advise all pilots  to learn how to use them. They're very handy sometimes, and not just for listening to the radio... Grin
 

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Reply #14 - Nov 29th, 2006 at 6:56am

BFMF   Offline
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After a friend of mine crashed the trainer I primarily flew, I finished the last half of my PPL training in an aircraft that had a GPS. Although my instructor showed me how to use it,  she had me occasionally use it as a backup tool. Whenever I did any cross country flights, I really never used it to navigate from point to point. Sometimes after calculating my groundspeed, we would check to see what the GPS said, but other than that, I never used it much.
 
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Reply #15 - Dec 15th, 2006 at 9:37pm

DaveSims   Offline
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Just a word about Vasi's and Papi's, as I do maintenance on these devices.  Usually you just have a white light bulb, with a red lense about two inches blocking the lower half of the light, so when you are viewing the light from a low enough angle, all you see is the light through the red lense. 

And as for LORAN, it was basically the pre satellite version of GPS. Instead of using satellites for informations, it uses signals from ground transmitters to figure out its location.
 
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