Search the archive:
YaBB - Yet another Bulletin Board
 
   
 
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
The demise of Non Directional Beacons? (Read 396 times)
Aug 22nd, 2006 at 10:13am

Fozzer   Offline
Colonel
An elderly FS 2004 addict!
Hereford. England. EGBS.

Posts: 24861
*****
 
NDB's...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-directional_beacon

Hello Lads...Grin...!

An quote from one of my UK "Flyer" magazines. November 2004:

"Belgocontrol - an enlightened bunch obviously.
They have stated their desire to rid their country (Belgium, obviously) of NDB's before 2010 when the rest of us should be rid of them".

I wonder why NDB's are so unpopular with the aviation sector, when they seem to me to be a simple, low cost, reasonably reliable  method of radio navigation compared to the more sophisticated, expensive (and fewer) VOR navigation aids?

The NDB beacon right in the middle of my local airfield means that I never get lost. The comforting little needle on my dash board always points the way home whatever the weather....Grin...!
The VOR beacons in the area are few and far between, and often out of range.

There appear to be many more NDB beacons than VOR's around, so if they are about to be switched off, what is going to replace them, if anything!

Cheers all...!

Paul... 8)...!
 

Dell Dimension 5000 BTX Tower. Win7 Home Edition, 32 Bit. Intel Pentium 4, dual 2.8 GHz. 2.5GB RAM, nVidia GF 9500GT 1GB. SATA 500GB + 80GB. Philips 17" LCD Monitor. Micronet ADSL Modem only. Saitek Cyborg Evo Force. FS 2004 + FSX. Briggs and Stratton Petrol Lawn Mower...Motor Bikes. Gas Cooker... and lots of musical instruments!.... ...!
Yamaha MO6,MM6,DX7,DX11,DX21,DX100,MK100,EMT10,PSR400,PSS780,Roland GW-8L v2,TR505,Casio MT-205,Korg CX3v2 dual manual,+ Leslie 760,M-Audio Prokeys88,KeyRig,Cubase,Keyfax4,Guitars,Orchestral,Baroque,Renaissance,Medieval Instruments.
IP Logged
 
Reply #1 - Aug 22nd, 2006 at 10:44am

Rifleman   Offline
Colonel
" Full size A/C are just
overgrown models ! "
Tropical island in the Pacific

Posts: 6622
*****
 
Quote:
There appear to be many more NDB beacons than VOR's around, so if they are about to be switched off, what is going to replace them, if anything!

Paul... 8)...!


Its an amazing transformation of the alphabet here Paul......
I'm sure if you apply the "learnings" of Darwin here, you'll soon put together the new law of natural selection and survival of the fittest and see that the only way things can advance, is to allow "NDB" to evolve into "GPS" !
 

...
IP Logged
 
Reply #2 - Aug 22nd, 2006 at 10:49am

Ivan   Offline
Colonel
No, I'm NOT Russian, I
only like Russian aircraft
The netherlands

Gender: male
Posts: 6058
*****
 
Why NDBs are unpopular

Long-time known stuff
  • Large influence of the weather (cloud cover and solar activity can make the signal range longer or shorter).
  • No range info and such (but you can learn that)
  • Maintainability

    More recent reasons
  • The remote ones are powered by nuclear batteries (environmentalists complaining and more recently terrorism risks)
  • General antenna scare (remember the recent fuss about GSM?)
  • Increased GPS ownership, and the fact that the US DOD still doesnt have enough MILSPEC GPS recievers to be able to lower the commercial precision whitout half the army getting lost in the desert
  •  

    Russian planes: IL-76 (all standard length ones),  Tu-154 and Il-62, Tu-134 and An-24RV&&&&AI flightplans and repaints can be found here
    IP Logged
     
    Reply #3 - Aug 22nd, 2006 at 11:09am

    Fozzer   Offline
    Colonel
    An elderly FS 2004 addict!
    Hereford. England. EGBS.

    Posts: 24861
    *****
     
    So....
    What am I going go bung in the 3-1/4 diameter inch hole in my instrument panel, and fill up the blank slot in my Bendix-King radio stack.... Cry...?

    ...and who's going to buy me a new, snazzy, portable GPS receiver...
    ...which takes three weeks to program before each flight...
    ...and even then you get it wrong...
    ...and you get lost....
    ...again...!

    ...arse....!

    LOL...Grin...!

    Paul...I love my little yellow needle...Cry...!
     

    Dell Dimension 5000 BTX Tower. Win7 Home Edition, 32 Bit. Intel Pentium 4, dual 2.8 GHz. 2.5GB RAM, nVidia GF 9500GT 1GB. SATA 500GB + 80GB. Philips 17" LCD Monitor. Micronet ADSL Modem only. Saitek Cyborg Evo Force. FS 2004 + FSX. Briggs and Stratton Petrol Lawn Mower...Motor Bikes. Gas Cooker... and lots of musical instruments!.... ...!
    Yamaha MO6,MM6,DX7,DX11,DX21,DX100,MK100,EMT10,PSR400,PSS780,Roland GW-8L v2,TR505,Casio MT-205,Korg CX3v2 dual manual,+ Leslie 760,M-Audio Prokeys88,KeyRig,Cubase,Keyfax4,Guitars,Orchestral,Baroque,Renaissance,Medieval Instruments.
    IP Logged
     
    Reply #4 - Aug 22nd, 2006 at 11:53am

    Brett_Henderson   Offline
    Colonel
    EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
    BE AN NDB

    Gender: male
    Posts: 3593
    *****
     
    I'm with ya Fozz  (see my long time signature).. avitar thingy  Embarrassed

    I always thought NDBs were underestimated and their simplicity under-appreciated..

    I don't know about European commercial radio, but here in the U.S.  An AM radio station makes an excellent NDB..  (plus you can pick up local news, traffic and weather).

    Whenever I'm flying back to Columbus, Ohio.. I just tune the ADF reciever to 610 and it points right to the heart of the city (where 610 WTVN has their transmitter)..
     
    IP Logged
     
    Reply #5 - Aug 22nd, 2006 at 12:15pm

    Fozzer   Offline
    Colonel
    An elderly FS 2004 addict!
    Hereford. England. EGBS.

    Posts: 24861
    *****
     
    Quote:
    I'm with ya Fozz  (see my long time signature).. avitar thingy  Embarrassed

    I always thought NDBs were underestimated and their simplicity under-appreciated..

    I don't know about European commercial radio, but here in the U.S.  An AM radio station makes an excellent NDB..  (plus you can pick up local news, traffic and weather).

    Whenever I'm flying back to Columbus, Ohio.. I just tune the ADF receiver to 610 and it points right to the heart of the city (where 610 WTVN has their transmitter)..


    I've read a number on very interesting articles in my various UK Pilot Magazines regarding the new-fangled Glass Cockpits, replacing the nice, simple, old-fashioned analogue instruments in our small GA aeroplanes..

    The Glass Cockpits were a source of great confusion in interpretation, with serious risks of errors in programming them.
    In one of the flight tests a simple electrical fault caused a total failure of all the screens, and the flight had to be safely maintained with reference to the couple of analogue instruments still remaining in the instrument panel..!!

    The pilots were spending more time looking at the confusing glassware than looking out of the window in front...!!
    ...and they were not impressed with the results....!

    Paul....as the saying goes; "Newer is not always better!"... Wink...!
     

    Dell Dimension 5000 BTX Tower. Win7 Home Edition, 32 Bit. Intel Pentium 4, dual 2.8 GHz. 2.5GB RAM, nVidia GF 9500GT 1GB. SATA 500GB + 80GB. Philips 17" LCD Monitor. Micronet ADSL Modem only. Saitek Cyborg Evo Force. FS 2004 + FSX. Briggs and Stratton Petrol Lawn Mower...Motor Bikes. Gas Cooker... and lots of musical instruments!.... ...!
    Yamaha MO6,MM6,DX7,DX11,DX21,DX100,MK100,EMT10,PSR400,PSS780,Roland GW-8L v2,TR505,Casio MT-205,Korg CX3v2 dual manual,+ Leslie 760,M-Audio Prokeys88,KeyRig,Cubase,Keyfax4,Guitars,Orchestral,Baroque,Renaissance,Medieval Instruments.
    IP Logged
     
    Reply #6 - Aug 22nd, 2006 at 12:16pm
    Flying Trucker   Ex Member

     

    I know how you feel Paul.

    Things started going down hill when pilots (except certain military pilots) were told they did not have to learn the morse code. Sad

    We have not had the use of marker beacons (inner, middle, outer) in a number of years in this country except at a few fighter bases. Sad

    Now we are losing many NDBs as well. Sad

    The GPS is a wonderful navigational tool until someone knocks out the satellite system which are prime targets during a war.

    Most pilots today have no idea how to use a sextant or octant and that includes our seafaring friends as well. Sad

    Many of us have argued and spoke out not against the technology we have but the technology we are slowly losing like the use of morse code, celestial navigation, old fashioned airmanship and seamanship.

    The powers to be only see the dollar sign and this has always been our downfall especially at the outbreak of any hostility. When they finally realize their mistake (they won't admit it but blame someone else) it is to late, we have already lost many good people.

    History has proven this many time over but only time will tell.

    You can still tune into a radio station Paul and work your own approach off that beacon with your ADF Wink

    Cheers...Happy Landings...Doug
     
    IP Logged
     
    Reply #7 - Aug 22nd, 2006 at 2:26pm

    beaky   Offline
    Global Moderator
    Uhhhh.... yup!
    Newark, NJ USA

    Gender: male
    Posts: 14187
    *****
     
    Trucker's right; if you fly near an urban center there's bound to be an AM station nearby.
    I think NDBs are very handy sometimes, but it wouldn't break my heart to see them all go... the bigger problem is that this is all part of a trend to, well, eventually remove humans from piloting altogether, it seems.
    VORs are already being decommisioned in this country- now that's disturbing! And many green students coming up, if flying in a GPS-equipped plane, are absolutley lost, bewildered, and terrified if the thing is turned off.
    At this rate, I reckon in 20 years if you can program the GPS-slaved AP and stay awake for the whole flight, you'll get your pilot's license. Wink

    Ah... "progress". Tongue  Roll Eyes


    On the other hand: I had a discussion with a friend Sunday about GPS... he learned to fly in Citabrias and the like many moons ago, but his RV-4 has a neat little panel-mounted GPS-com, and he says he won't fly in unfamiliar country without a GPS, even just a hand-held.... as backup.
    Pulled his chestnuts out of the fire once (with a handheld ) on a cloudy day in the N. Carolina hills in a Citabria once... it was pretty much "ground contact" flying once he realized he had to press on to his nearby destination (wx kinda closed in around him). The cloud bases were resting on the hilltops, which were obscured even lower by haze (I've seen that, first time I flew down there. Scary).
    But that unit had no terrain display; he had to know that the route he chose would keep him in the valley, so he had to know how to read the chart properly, and estimate the time, etc., before commiting to the "little grey line".  Once his course was set, all he had to do was keep 'er straight and level and keep zooming in until he could see the runway on the display and plan a straight-in.
    So in the right hands, it's a very useful tool.

    At any rate... I will sort of miss NDBs; they have a certain simple charm. I almost hope I get the chance to do an NDB approach in IMC someday, but it's not likely to happen.
     

    ...
    IP Logged
     
    Reply #8 - Aug 22nd, 2006 at 7:58pm
    Flying Trucker   Ex Member

     
    Hi Sean Wink

    I know exactly how your friend felt, I flew for years without GPS and long before it came into being.  Even the VOR Stations were new, everything was done by NDB or Map Reading (good old fashioned navigation).

    I would not own an aircraft today without a GPS BUT I still use the trusty map, NDBs and VORs.  Not that I do not trust the GPS because I do, but it is the way I was trained to fly and navigate.

    Long before the Cessna 185 was even invented I flew bush during the summer months to pay for my University Degree as my marks were not high enough to get into the Royal Military College at Kingston. (only one in the family who never went Tongue)
    I flew out of a hole in the ground up near WAWA Ontario, we would start flying about 06:00 in the morning and by 09:00 the fog would be so thick off Georgian Bay you could walk on it. Wink
    Scud running was the thing of the day, you got down in the valley looking up at the pine trees and you could not see the tops of the trees as they were in the fog.
    I used the same valley all the time and prayed many a time no one was coming the opposite direction and I made it to the lake before the fog settled in.

    I would tune into a radio station with the ADF as we had no VORs then and like Paul says thats how many a late evening you got home.  I would do an approach off that station onto the lake itself in the dark (illegal with a seaplan/floatplane) unless there are under water landing lights like at some of the large Air Force Stations on the water.

    Yes Paul I agree with you,  NDBs should not be decommissioned because if they save one life then they are worth having, besides the dam things are already paid for a thousand fold. Smiley

    Sean you get out there and try a couple of NDB approaches in that C172.  It will only make you a better pilot and what harm can it do? Wink

    Cheers...Happy Landings...Doug
    Who:
    Has been up there
    Wishing he was down here
    To many times Wink
     
    IP Logged
     
    Reply #9 - Aug 22nd, 2006 at 10:30pm

    beefhole   Offline
    Colonel
    common' yigs!
    Philadelphia

    Gender: male
    Posts: 4466
    *****
     
    I've never, not once, tuned to an NDB in all my training.  Hell, they've never even been mentioned.  No idea how to use them.  From my FS experience, I'm assuming it's just enter frequency, then fly where the needle is pointing, but that's just an assumption.
     
    IP Logged
     
    Reply #10 - Aug 22nd, 2006 at 11:03pm

    Brett_Henderson   Offline
    Colonel
    EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
    BE AN NDB

    Gender: male
    Posts: 3593
    *****
     
    There's a bit of finesse flying to or from an NDB..  You can't latch on to a radial  like a VOR. In zero wind it's easy.. Just keep the needle on the ADF at 12 o'clock (flying to). But if there's any wind, keeping it at 12 will just put you in an exagerate spiral toward it.

    Let's say you're trying to fly 360 to an NDB, with wind out of 090. You'll need to keep the ADF needle somewhat west of 12 o'clock, as you crab toward the NDB. If you keep adjusting your heading to keep the needle at 12 o'clock; you'll be swept out to the west and eventually be flying at the NDB directly into the wind, 090.

    The compass ring (if so equiped) is kinda like the OBS ring on a VOR, except it's nothing but a reference. I never use it.. I just make a mental superimposition of the needle on the directional-gyro.

    The most common use for NDBs is as outer markers. They'll be approx. 5 miles out online with the runway... and can keep you from turning in too early on an ILS approach.. Or be used for an NDB approach (on or off filed). And of course they're handy triangulation aids.. Either two of them.. or in tandem with a VOR

    They're quite a test of your IFR skill (NDB approaches), as they'll make you use the timer outbound from an IAF and inbound (and for your descent.. unless the NDB is at the field where it, itself is your missed indication).

    Get your hands on a few NDB approach plates.. and fly'em in the SIM..  It's a blast..

     
    IP Logged
     
    Reply #11 - Aug 22nd, 2006 at 11:32pm

    The Ruptured Duck   Offline
    Colonel
    Legally sane since yesterday!
    Wichita, KS

    Gender: male
    Posts: 2614
    *****
     
    Saying NDB around an instrament student will automatically raise their blood pressure to an un healthy level, and make their (you know what) hole tighter
     

    "If you would not be forgotten, as soon as you are dead and rotten, either write things worth reading, or do things worth the writing" -Ben Franklin&&&&"Man must rise above the Earth to the top of the atmosphere and beyond, for only thus will he fully understand the world in which he lives." - Socrates&&&&" Flying is a religion. A religion that asymilates all who get a taste of it." - Me&&&&"Make the most out of yourself, for that is all there is of you"- Ralf Waldo Emerson&&
    IP Logged
     
    Reply #12 - Aug 23rd, 2006 at 12:07am

    Mobius   Offline
    Colonel
    Highest Point in the Lightning
    Storm
    Wisconsin

    Posts: 4369
    *****
     
    When I learned to fly three years ago, I was only required to read about NDB's and I never actually navigated with one.  I don't even think the three Cessna 172's available for rent at my home airport have ADF equipment. Tongue
     

    ...
    IP Logged
     
    Reply #13 - Aug 23rd, 2006 at 6:44am

    beaky   Offline
    Global Moderator
    Uhhhh.... yup!
    Newark, NJ USA

    Gender: male
    Posts: 14187
    *****
     
    Quote:
    I've never, not once, tuned to an NDB in all my training.  Hell, they've never even been mentioned.  No idea how to use them.  From my FS experience, I'm assuming it's just enter frequency, then fly where the needle is pointing, but that's just an assumption.


    That technique will get you there eventually, but as Brett says, if you "home" on the beacon you'll fly an arc towards it if there's any wind.

    To do it with wind, you must first get a bearing on it, then turn to a heading that is the same as the bearing plus or minus wind correction angle which will of course be a little different that whatever offset you were using originally. If you think of that bearing angle as a VOR radial, it makes more sense... often when tracking a radial, your aircraft heading is not the same as the radial. What's tricky about NDBs is that instead of that needle and dot to show you if you're on track, you have to do some calculating first. Once you've made your decision, though, you need only keep that needle deflected the same amount as it was when you rolled out on your new course, and if the wind doesn't change, you should be OK. It's challenging. But in VFR flight, as you go crabbing towards the station, you can use visual landmarks or VOR radials, and even DME readings, to confirm you're on track. It just requires more skull sweat- and that's not a bad thing, most of the time.
    In my RL (VFR) flying, I've rarely tracked directly to NDBs, although back when I was flying out of KTEB, I often reported inbound at the Paterson NDB or was directed there to hold by the tower. I usually did OK tracking to it.
    Mostly, though I've used them as rough waypoints when there are no easily recognizable landmarks: when the needle shows I've passed it, or when it shows a particular bearing, I have a better idea where I am along my route. This is very useful when you'd like to have a VOR intersection but there's only one VOR within range... or when there's no VOR at all within range.
    And if you're hopelessly lost but know you're in the neighborhood, or if you have to divert due to wx or whatever, even spiralling to a nearby NDB is better than blundering around.

    I'll miss those NDBs... I'll  miss LORAN, too- I used to rent a Skyhawk that had LORAN; very accurate sometimes, and potentially more reliable (as a system) than GPS.

     

    ...
    IP Logged
     
    Reply #14 - Aug 23rd, 2006 at 10:16am

    TSC.   Offline
    Colonel
    The older I get, the better
    I was...
    Torquay, Devon, England.

    Gender: male
    Posts: 5132
    *****
     
    Only used them once in RL, but I will use them all the time in FS9 if one is available & relevant to my navigation. I like using them, I find it a very simple & easy way to navigate.

    Although, I nearly always use an NDB in conjuction with a VOR & DME (if available), just as a back up - & to reassure myself of my direction!!

    I believe what Brett says 'Every outer-marker should be an NDB' - that would make things much easier.

    Can't remember the last time I used the GPS in FS9.

    Cheers,

    TSC.
     

    ...

    'Only two things are infinite.......The Universe and Human stupidity........and I'm not too sure about the Universe' - Einstein
    IP Logged
     
    Pages: 1 2 
    Send Topic Print