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Flying just got cheaper!! (Read 1195 times)
Reply #30 - Apr 25th, 2006 at 1:47pm

Woodlouse2002   Offline
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Quote:
My students won't solo until they've passed the written and if less than 90%.. not until they're at 90% proficiency in my eyes. They will not go up alone without at least calling me and relating their intentions and letting ME make the weather decision.. ideally, meeting me at the airport for preflight.

So who made you the master of flight? Surely if someone can read a weather forcast and a pressure chart they should be more than capable of making their own weather decisions. And if they've managed to obtain there PPL they should also be able to make their own preflight checks. Surely the whole point of obtaining a PPL or any sort of flying licience is so that you don't have to phone up your instructor to find out the weather and to check the plane for you.

Learning to fly is already the most legistlated hobby you could possibly get involved in and the more legislation you come across the more you have to pay. This sport pilot programme offers flying to more than just the rich or pedantically dedicated. As a pilot who knows the joys of flight you should praise such a progamme instead of bodyslamming it from every possible angle. Just because you have a PPL it doesn't mean you can spit on these sport pilots because of the route they chose. Just remember that even you once upon a time had only 20 hours of flying time and how would you have felt towards anyone who called you an unnessacery hazard to the more experienced?
 
Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #31 - Apr 25th, 2006 at 2:05pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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The OK-ing of a flight pertains to STUDENT SOLO pilots... under the guidance of an instructor(read more carefully, please)..

AND IT'S  NOT MY RULE..  Student pilots CANNOT take off SOLO and fly to another airport until THEIR INSTRUCTOR has signed that specific flight off in their logbook.. SPECIFICALLY OK-ing the weather, airports and the student's planning. If there's a problem or busted airspace.. it's the INSTRUCTOR's  ### Edit: "Butt"..

When I was a 20 hour student.. I had no business just hopping into plane when I darn well felt like it,, NO PILOT DOES at 20 hours.
 
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Reply #32 - Apr 25th, 2006 at 2:07pm

beaky   Offline
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There's a factor you haven't considered regarding student solo x-c approval, Woodie- put yourself in a CFI's shoes. Remember that your student has not passed written or checkride yet... and by "preflight" I don't think he meant the walkaround; students should have that down cold before their first solo.
But I'll leave it to Brett to explain... Grin
 
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Reply #33 - Apr 25th, 2006 at 3:06pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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From  Flying Magazine..  Jan.  2006..


Quote:
Just as Orville and Grover found out that Army pilots of the early twentieth century didn’t understand stalls, or at least had a lot of trouble dealing with them, the same appears to be true for the end of the twentieth century and the beginning of the twenty-first. No, we aren’t losing eight out of 14 as the Army did way back when, but we are losing far too many.



Looking at recent experience with these airplanes, and given the relatively minimum training to be required, it appears that if a lot of people are attracted to light sport flying, we could have an aeronautical slaughter of epic proportions. The only way to avoid that would be with a training program that I don’t think anybody can envision being possible, especially in 20 hours. We had a terrible record after 40 hours of flying back in the ’50s, and I don’t think that anyone can show that things have become that much better, or that flying has become that much simpler.

Everyone is excited about light sport flying and that is good. But a lot of thought has to go into how we are going to teach these pilots to avoid stall/spin accidents, something that has been around for the history of flying quite light airplanes, and that has not abated over the years. This is going to be a real challenge.




Here's the whole article:  http://www.flyingmag.com/article.asp?section_id=12&article_id=619&print_page=y


That's one of the things I'd change about even a standard PPL..  You don't have to demonstrate spin recovery. I think that you should...



 
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Reply #34 - Apr 25th, 2006 at 3:36pm

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Good points again...all of this must be considered. I was lucky to have one instructor who actually showed me spin entry; did about 1/2 turn... it taught me much more about that situation than all the book-learnin' and Recognition and Recovery drills I'd ever done.  I've heard the argument that the stall/spin accident rate was supposedly higher (for all types) when they used to teach  spin recovery for students, but I dunno if there's a direct correlation. I'll bet they were inadvertant spins, just as most are today.

But I thought you were going to remind Woodie that as CFI, you'd be held liable to some extent  if a student ran afoul of bad weather...
 
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Reply #35 - Apr 25th, 2006 at 3:42pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Quote:
But I thought you were going to remind Woodie that as CFI, you'd be held liable to some extent  if a student ran afoul of bad weather...  




I did   Grin

Quote:
The OK-ing of a flight pertains to STUDENT SOLO pilots... under the guidance of an instructor(read more carefully, please)..

AND IT'S  NOT MY RULE..  Student pilots CANNOT take off SOLO and fly to another airport until THEIR INSTRUCTOR has signed that specific flight off in their logbook.. SPECIFICALLY OK-ing the WEATHER, airports and the student's planning. If there's a problem or busted airspace.. it's the INSTRUCTOR's  ### Edit: "Butt"..

When I was a 20 hour student.. I had no business just hopping into plane when I darn well felt like it,, NO PILOT DOES at 20 hours.
 
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Reply #36 - Apr 25th, 2006 at 3:56pm

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Quote:
I did   Grin


D'oh... must've gone through as I was typing my reply to Woodlouse.
I was surprised you hadn't come back yet... Grin

I see you're as busy today as I am... LOL!
 
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Reply #37 - Apr 25th, 2006 at 3:57pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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I executed my first spin and recovery in a Tomahawk  Shocked

Got TWO for the price of one.. It came out of the right-hand spin.. and went "right" into a left-hand spin...



Yeah.. it's a gray/rainy day..  we we're just sitting there in the hangar converted into an office/pilot lounge..
 
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Reply #38 - Apr 25th, 2006 at 4:21pm

beaky   Offline
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Quote:
I executed my first spin and recovery in a Tomahawk  Shocked

Got TWO for the price of one.. It came out of the right-hand spin.. and went "right" into a left-hand spin...




Yeeep!! Tomahawk... took my first lesson in one and loved it, but there are so many "had to climb onto the glareshield to get the nose down" spin stories about that bird...not my first choice for a spin-practice mount (although in good hands they're great trainers). I had my brief intro to spins in a 172... yawn. Still, I agree there's no substitute for the real thing. R and R works much better if you know what happens if you don't R and then R... Grin
Too bad I didn't get any spin training on my one aerobatic lesson (too hazy; instructor decided not to do any).
Soon enough; I want to do some more aerobatics this summer; definitely gonna try to get some spins in.



Hope the sun comes out before you starve to death- good luck!
Grin
 
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Reply #39 - Apr 25th, 2006 at 4:33pm

Hagar   Offline
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That's one of the things I'd change about even a standard PPL..  You don't have to demonstrate spin recovery. I think that you should...

There I would agree 100%. In my day (1960s) stall & spin recovery was compulsory before the pupil's first solo. I'm not sure when this was changed but don't think too many modern trainers are rated for spinning so it wouldn't be possible now. The PFA Pilot Coaching Scheme I mentioned covers specialised skills not included in the standard PPL syllabus so a lot of these UK sports pilots flying from small grass strips on an NPPL are actually more capable in some conditions than those with a full PPL used to all the facilities of the bigger airports or airfields.

It might be somewhat different in the US but please bear in mind that the 20 hours or whatever {it's actually 32 hours for the NPPL (SEP)} is the minimum requirement & some pupils will take far longer. This will also depend on how regularly they have lessons, just as with the standard PPL. The ground tuition is identical so there's no difference there. The number of flying hours will naturally vary considerably depending on the standard of tuition & the pupil's ability. In my experience the general standard of flying training in the UK is high & normally carried out at an approved flying club or school. The question of a pupil flying an aircraft solo without the instructor's permission simply wouldn't arise.

I don't kid myself that all sport pilots are perfect & obey all the rules any more than all those with a "proper" PPL. I've met more than one commercial pilot who should never have been allowed near an aeroplane. (IMHO of course) Roll Eyes
 
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Reply #40 - Apr 25th, 2006 at 4:57pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Agreed... There will be the whole range of: Least competent/capable to most competent/capable.. no matter where you set the slider..  but I see no point in moving it down; for training or medical requirements.

The words.. Quote:
Looking at recent experience with these airplanes, and given the relatively minimum training to be required, it appears that if a lot of people are attracted to light sport flying, we could have an aeronautical slaughter of epic proportions
.. weren't mine... They're that of a respected pilot and aviation writer (both periodicals and his own books) who has more than a passing interest in the future health of G/A.. AND.. they pretty much reflect the attitude of the 30,000hr instructor who's forgoten more about flying than I now know..

OK.. I really am done now *smirk*.. Getting this worked up is tiring.
 
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Reply #41 - Apr 25th, 2006 at 5:06pm

Hagar   Offline
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OK.. I really am done now *smirk*.. Getting this worked up is tiring.

You're entitled to your opinion but please don't smirk at me. I might not have a PPL but I do have a lifetime of experience in aviation & I have always been involved with the training side of things. My first job in the business was with the most experienced & repected flying instructor in the UK at that time & possibly for all time.
 
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Reply #42 - Apr 25th, 2006 at 5:08pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
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Sorry.. that was a generic expression.. not directed personally, but toward this whole topic..
 
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Reply #43 - Apr 25th, 2006 at 5:09pm

Hagar   Offline
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Accepted.
 
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Reply #44 - Apr 25th, 2006 at 6:02pm

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There I would agree 100%. In my day (1960s) stall & spin recovery was compulsory before the pupil's first solo. I'm not sure when this was changed but don't think too many modern trainers are rated for spinning so it wouldn't be possible now.


When I was learning in Cessna's I always thought the spin recovery placard on the sun visor was interesting. Nowadays, a few hundred spins later I understand its futility! If you're at Cessna altitudes, get into a spin and can read that and logically implement what it is saying you deserve a medal!

There's only one way to learn get out of a spin - and that's to learn & practice them with someone who can spin proficiently (ie, an instructor)... I do both upright and inverted spinning at least once a month to keep current - and I'm considerably more practiced than most!
 
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