Search the archive:
YaBB - Yet another Bulletin Board
 
   
 
Pages: 1 
Send Topic Print
thrust vectoring/VTOL/fly by wire (Read 3950 times)
Apr 1st, 2006 at 8:23am

F-16Viper   Offline
Colonel
Uno Ab Alto

Gender: male
Posts: 1067
*****
 
will fsx have thrust vectoring or VTOL or fly by wire? (for F/A-22s, AV-8b harriars, and all the other combat jets for flybywire) Smiley
 

...&&&&Civil Air Patrol Member since July 2005&&C/CMSgt       www.cap.gov
IP Logged
 
Reply #1 - Apr 1st, 2006 at 9:08am

Crumbso   Offline
Colonel
The Sea Vixen - You aint'
never seen such a fox!!!
West Sussex, England

Gender: male
Posts: 1794
*****
 
Fly by wire is going to be a long way off I suspect. It's nigh on impossible to model now as flightsim doesn't handle unstable flight models, therefore you can't have a system built to control the instability because there is none lol.

If there is FS goes nuts and the plane flys all over the place.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #2 - Apr 1st, 2006 at 9:31am

expat   Offline
Colonel
Deep behind enemy lines!

Gender: male
Posts: 8499
*****
 
We already have fly by wire..............Joy stick - wire - computer. We have been doing a long time before the big boys Grin Grin Grin Grin

Matt
 

PETA ... People Eating Tasty Animals.

B1 Boeing 737-800 and Dash8 Q-400
IP Logged
 
Reply #3 - Apr 1st, 2006 at 9:34am

elite marksman   Offline
Colonel
Please upload all images
to Simv!

Gender: male
Posts: 855
*****
 
Fly by wire isn't just for fighters. All Airbus aircraft now use a fly-by-wire system.

I believe that you are referring to the intentional instability of some aircraft, such as the F-16, which requires a computer to constantly make small adjustments to keep the aircraft flying. This does not need to be modeled in the sim as there is a very easy workaround. In the flight model for these aircraft, the effectiveness for the controls can be adjusted so that they mimick the flight characteristics of aircraft that are inherently unstable (B-2, F-117), or ones that are intentionaly unstable (F-16). However, there is a disadvantage to the instablility of some aircraft. For example, an F-16 at 300kts is capable of loading 9G so quickly that the G-suit does not have time compensate, usually incapacitating, and potentialy killing the pilot.

As for the other two, I would love to see them, however I don't think that they will be included for two reasons. The first is that MS wants to keep the FS franchise a "civilian", thus there has been only two default military aircraft in the previous 9 iterations that I can recall, the Vaught F4U4 Corsair, and the Sopwith Camel. The Curtis J4N Jenny may be considered military, but due to the extensive civillian use after the war I do not. The other reason is programming. In a vertical-horizontal flight transition there are many variables, even a simplified version would be very difficult to program. Hopefully they will be included, but I won't be holding my breath.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #4 - Apr 1st, 2006 at 11:34am

flyboy 28   Offline
Colonel
Jacksonville, FL

Posts: 13323
*****
 
I'm sure its easy enough to do in FS9, just tweak the .cfg
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #5 - Apr 1st, 2006 at 11:48am

F-16Viper   Offline
Colonel
Uno Ab Alto

Gender: male
Posts: 1067
*****
 
Quote:
I'm sure its easy enough to do in FS9, just tweak the .cfg


show me us microsoft how Grin Wink
 

...&&&&Civil Air Patrol Member since July 2005&&C/CMSgt       www.cap.gov
IP Logged
 
Reply #6 - Apr 1st, 2006 at 1:31pm

Mobius   Offline
Colonel
Highest Point in the Lightning
Storm
Wisconsin

Posts: 4369
*****
 
All fly-by-wire is is keeping an inherently unstable airplane (F-16) stable with minute control inputs that constantly adjust the control surfaces to allow smooth flight in an aircraft that would normally be unflyable.  It also allows for automatic use of the rudder when necessary, eliminating the need for pilot rudder inputs.  This is pretty much what elite already said, however, it is already modeled in the "auto-rudder" option (as they are inherently the same thing).

As for thrust vectoring and VTOL flight, that is something that has to be modeled into each aircraft individually.  Many FS9 aircraft already have VTOL capabilities, like the IRIS Harrier and F-35 (see pic below).  Thrust vectoring only allows an increase in agility and it allows the aircraft to maintain a certain degree of control in a post-stall flight regime, meaning the aircraft can still maneuver in a stall, or when there is no airflow over the wings, which again, would have to be modelled for each aircraft, unless a much more advanced flight model was used, which actually simulated airflow over the wings (which is very doubtful).

Pic of VTOL flight (WARNING contains PAYWARE), IRIS F-35 in a hover....
...
...
 

...
IP Logged
 
Reply #7 - Apr 1st, 2006 at 3:03pm

F-16Viper   Offline
Colonel
Uno Ab Alto

Gender: male
Posts: 1067
*****
 
but can it take off truly vertical, not move 5 feet then take off, and still fly like an airplane?

HERE is a demonstration.
 

...&&&&Civil Air Patrol Member since July 2005&&C/CMSgt       www.cap.gov
IP Logged
 
Reply #8 - Apr 1st, 2006 at 4:03pm

flyboy 28   Offline
Colonel
Jacksonville, FL

Posts: 13323
*****
 
I think you're asking a bit much here. If you want it so bad, try yourself.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #9 - Apr 1st, 2006 at 6:24pm

Mobius   Offline
Colonel
Highest Point in the Lightning
Storm
Wisconsin

Posts: 4369
*****
 
And HERE is my response.  It's a super neat-o movie I made and put on putfile of the F-35 from IRIS. Grin Wink
 

...
IP Logged
 
Reply #10 - Apr 1st, 2006 at 6:59pm

SilverFox441   Offline
Colonel
Now What?
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada

Gender: male
Posts: 1467
*****
 
True VTOL is available in FS now...for certain planes that have received the magic treatment.

I wish I knew how it was done, I do know the basics...but the devil is in the details. Smiley
 

Steve (Silver Fox) Daly
&&
IP Logged
 
Reply #11 - Apr 1st, 2006 at 7:35pm

F-16Viper   Offline
Colonel
Uno Ab Alto

Gender: male
Posts: 1067
*****
 
Quote:
And HERE is my response.  It's a super neat-o movie I made and put on putfile of the F-35 from IRIS. Grin Wink


HOW MUCH IS THAT!!!???

 

...&&&&Civil Air Patrol Member since July 2005&&C/CMSgt       www.cap.gov
IP Logged
 
Reply #12 - Apr 1st, 2006 at 10:22pm

Mobius   Offline
Colonel
Highest Point in the Lightning
Storm
Wisconsin

Posts: 4369
*****
 
IRIS F-35 Looks like $16.49 right now. Wink  If you do get it, there is a special guage out there that allows it to hover better, I can't quite remember where it is though. Embarrassed Wink
 

...
IP Logged
 
Reply #13 - Apr 2nd, 2006 at 6:40am

Crumbso   Offline
Colonel
The Sea Vixen - You aint'
never seen such a fox!!!
West Sussex, England

Gender: male
Posts: 1794
*****
 
It is  a fantastic gauge we have it in our V-22 but it's still not a true representation of Vectored thrust. It's very very clever gauge trickery, you can tell by the way it moves.

It's important to proper simulation that FS be able to cope with thrust being off the main axis of flight, the moment a flight model becomes unstable it goes haywire. This is why it can't handle the unstable aerobatics of the Extra 300 and Sukhoi and other aircraft like it. Once this is sorted then vectoring thrust should be no problem and I think that stubborness of not allowing military aircraft is a ridiculous reason not to include it. A large amount of add-ons for FS are military.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #14 - Apr 3rd, 2006 at 7:59pm

cleobis   Offline
Colonel
OPorto, Portugal

Gender: male
Posts: 417
*****
 
Well I don't know why some people are saying that thrust vectoring is a long way to go because it would need complex flight models for each a/c...

X-Plane has it, so I assume that if M$ wanted to use it they should be able to...

as for the excuse that flightsimulator is a "only" civil simulator, I find it very dubious...M$ might have started as a civil simulator, but nowadays it's nothing more than a platform for us to use everything you can think of...I mean...just think of what has been done:

a/c, copters, spaceships (fictional and non fictional), cars, bikes, buses, ships in evevery form,gliders, cartoon flying robots, paper a/c, etc,etc....

Please m$ just provide us with the most complete universe possible...

cheers
 

...&&*** Força Aérea Portuguesa *** www.emfa.pt/
IP Logged
 
Reply #15 - Apr 4th, 2006 at 5:31pm
Tweek   Ex Member

 
I'd just like to point this topic out to you, before you get too excited about the IRIS (as DSB in this topic) F-35. Not to pick fault, but to raise awareness.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #16 - Apr 4th, 2006 at 8:26pm

Crumbso   Offline
Colonel
The Sea Vixen - You aint'
never seen such a fox!!!
West Sussex, England

Gender: male
Posts: 1794
*****
 
I can't comment on a rival company as it would be in bad taste, but I will say that Rob made the gauge for our V-22 specifically and we have his permission.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #17 - Jun 16th, 2006 at 12:15pm

machineman9   Offline
Colonel
Nantwich, England

Gender: male
Posts: 5255
*****
 
Quote:
We already have fly by wire..............Joy stick - wire - computer. We have been doing a long time before the big boys Grin Grin Grin Grin

Matt


or wireless!

joystick- funny wireless thing- computer!
 

...
IP Logged
 
Reply #18 - Jun 16th, 2006 at 5:59pm

Daube   Offline
Colonel
Alternative bloomer
Nice (FR)

Gender: male
Posts: 5833
*****
 
Quote:
Well I don't know why some people are saying that thrust vectoring is a long way to go because it would need complex flight models for each a/c...

X-Plane has it, so I assume that if M$ wanted to use it they should be able to...

Thrust vectoring is a joke to code as long as your physical engine in your game is made for using physical vectors. That's not the case of FS, unfortunately.

I tried some years ago to create my own flight sim (I had time, I was still looking for a job  Grin ). This vectored thrust was so easy to implement that I did it in less than one day. Ok it was not complete yet (no moment of forces were computed yet, could not find back the formula in my school books Tongue ) but nevertheless I could make a Harrier takeoff and land almost like a real one.

This IRIS JSF is not hovering. It's nothing more than a slew that is done here. The same with the freeware gauge available for harrier and osprey. But that's cool to have them nevertheless Smiley

Quote:
as for the excuse that flightsimulator is a "only" civil simulator, I find it very dubious...M$ might have started as a civil simulator, but nowadays it's nothing more than a platform for us to use everything you can think of...I mean...just think of what has been done:

a/c, copters, spaceships (fictional and non fictional), cars, bikes, buses, ships in evevery form,gliders, cartoon flying robots, paper a/c, etc,etc....

I agree.  From a physical point of view, there is just no difference between a jet, a prop, a copter etc....
A car is just an aircraft with no wings. An helicopter is just a plane with only vertical thrust, etc... vectors are vectors and do not care who creates them.

Quote:
Please m$ just provide us with the most complete universe possible...

cheers

Keep that for the next versions Smiley
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #19 - Jun 17th, 2006 at 1:03am

BAW0343   Offline
Colonel
No, now go away or I shall
taunt you a second time
Mesa, AZ

Gender: male
Posts: 3294
*****
 
I would personally LOVE to have a sim that I can take off from a Carrier with an F-18, do a mission in Iraq or some other country with working weapnary, radar, and targets, come back and land. Then be able to hop aboard the next chopper and go fly a 747 out of KBOS. But this brings the issue of what we called in CFS a UFI (unidentified flying idiot) They would constantly come into a game we just want to fly togeather peacefully and do a shoot em up. It also allows for some pretty sick things to be done in FS (like bombing civillians Roll Eyes ) also on the other side this would allow for something they have in FS Passengers, Civil aircraft damage from enemy fire, makes for interesting flights however, but not really appropriate.
 

... ...
IP Logged
 
Reply #20 - Jun 20th, 2006 at 8:17pm

ansteve1   Offline
Colonel
LINKED IMAGES ARE NOT
ALLOWED AT SIMV!

Gender: male
Posts: 52
*****
 
Quote:
I would personally LOVE to have a sim that I can take off from a Carrier with an F-18, do a mission in Iraq or some other country with working weapnary, radar, and targets, come back and land. Then be able to hop aboard the next chopper and go fly a 747 out of KBOS. But this brings the issue of what we called in FS a UFI (unidentified flying idiot) They would constantly come into a game we just want to fly togeather peacefully and do a shoot em up. It also allows for some pretty sick things to be done in FS (like bombing civillians Roll Eyes ) also on the other side this would allow for something they have in FS Passengers, Civil aircraft damage from enemy fire, makes for interesting flights however, but not really appropriate.


That would cuase problems. But if there was a combat flight sim that had modern warefare with world wide coverage you would avoid idioits who try to shoot down civilian aircraft (But then again people can do this in fs9 with some of the effects that are out there)  Undecided Embarrassed
 

Proud to Be A Marine&&Semper fi
IP Logged
 
Reply #21 - Jun 23rd, 2006 at 12:40am

Sooner266   Offline
Colonel

Gender: male
Posts: 107
*****
 
so far i have only seen aircraft with a sort of mega-flap capabability, where it just pitches straight down if you do something wrong. There's no real VERTICAL lift. so it is thrust vectoring sort of, just not really balanced right.
 

...
IP Logged
 
Reply #22 - Jun 23rd, 2006 at 9:36pm

Ashton Lawson   Offline
Colonel
FS Water Configurator
Programmer
Phuket, Thailand

Gender: male
Posts: 1211
*****
 
We have all seen thrust vectoring in FS9 (well, most of us have) and its safe to say that no-one (i think) have come up with a way to really make realistic thrust-vectoring.  Most people come up with gauges, or out-rageous .cfg files, but still no one can make true thrust vectoring.
I'm actually working on a separate program (like 3Wire) which can will calculate amounts of thrust, wind, bleeders (on harriers bleeders are small thrust outlets placed strategically on the aircraft to help control the aircraft during hover), and many other things to create a truely real thrust vectoring expierience...  I just have to work out how to access FS to change things (don't tell me to use FSUIPC, i don't like it much).

As for Fly-By-Wire, I think if you can make a some-what unstable aircraft, you could make a gauge for it to 'tweak' the players control surfaces.  But for now, I just want someone to make a Fly-By-Wire aircraft which simply turns a force-feedback joystick, into a auto-centering one.
 

...&&FS Water Configurator+ has new modifications in the works, plus DirectX 10, Service Pack&&1, and Radeon HD 3+ Series support.
IP Logged
 
Reply #23 - Jun 24th, 2006 at 11:03am

Daube   Offline
Colonel
Alternative bloomer
Nice (FR)

Gender: male
Posts: 5833
*****
 
Quote:
We have all seen thrust vectoring in FS9 (well, most of us have) and its safe to say that no-one (i think) have come up with a way to really make realistic thrust-vectoring.  Most people come up with gauges, or out-rageous .cfg files, but still no one can make true thrust vectoring.
I'm actually working on a separate program (like 3Wire) which can will calculate amounts of thrust, wind, bleeders (on harriers bleeders are small thrust outlets placed strategically on the aircraft to help control the aircraft during hover), and many other things to create a truely real thrust vectoring expierience...  I just have to work out how to access FS to change things (don't tell me to use FSUIPC, i don't like it much).

As for Fly-By-Wire, I think if you can make a some-what unstable aircraft, you could make a gauge for it to 'tweak' the players control surfaces.  But for now, I just want someone to make a Fly-By-Wire aircraft which simply turns a force-feedback joystick, into a auto-centering one.

Sound really really really cool Smiley
I don't know how much you can actually interact with the orientation of the aircraft with the SDK, but nevertheless I am glad to ear that someone wants to try that posibility  8)
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #24 - Jul 2nd, 2006 at 4:23pm

Ashton Lawson   Offline
Colonel
FS Water Configurator
Programmer
Phuket, Thailand

Gender: male
Posts: 1211
*****
 
I'm still learning alot about the C++ Programming language, but i know many other languages so it shouldn't be too hard...  There are afew compilers out there which can make dll files, so I'll try to make this VTOL thing a module.


Now, addressing the Fly-By-Wire thing.  When you watch an F-22 fly (or F-16, not as much tho), you can notice that during level flight, the elevator/elevons are constantly moving abit up, down, with the rudder also moving in tiny bits.

<Caution! Next bit should only be read by modellers. Thank you. Smiley>

Now, from what I understand about the modelling, why not make a self-animated 'dummy' object, named one of those turbine things at different speeds, then attach the elevons to them.  (This would not actually attach the elevons to them, but allow the elevons to move normally with tining changes when the dummy object moves.

That way, when the engine speed is really low, there are no movements.  But when you're at full throttle, the elevons allways slightly adjust! Cheesy  This is only idea.  I don't understand the aircraft creation thing enough to be able to know for sure if this would work.
 

...&&FS Water Configurator+ has new modifications in the works, plus DirectX 10, Service Pack&&1, and Radeon HD 3+ Series support.
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 
Send Topic Print