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A Few Fact's of WW2... part 1 (Read 1299 times)
Jan 1
st
, 2006 at 7:27am
Theis
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The first German serviceman killed in the war was killed by the Japanese (China, 1937), the first American serviceman killed was killed by the Russians (Finland 1940), the highest ranking American killed was Lt. General Lesley McNair, killed by the US Army Air Corps. So much for the allies.
From John Arterbury. Lt. General Lesley McNair was killed by accidental Allied bombing in France. Cite: Crusade by Rick Atkinson
Further, from Captain Robert A. Lynn, The highest ranking U.S. general killed by enemy fire was Lt. General Simon Bolivar, Jr. He was junior to Lt. General Lesley J. McNair, who was killed by U.S. bombers.
The youngest US serviceman was 12 year old Calvin Graham, USN. He was wounded in combat and given a Dishonorable Discharge for lying about his age. (His benefits were later restored by act of Congress.)
The item above was confirmed by a note from Richard Graham of Canton, TX who says: The story about Calvin Graham enlisted in the navy at the age of 12 is a true story. he was a cousin of mine. The last time I talked to Calvin was at a family reunion several years before his death.
At the time of Pearl Harbor the top US Navy command was called CINCUS (pronounced "sink us"), the shoulder patch of the US Army's 45th Infantry division was the Swastika, and Hitler's private train was named "Amerika." All three were soon changed for PR purposes.
Dave Walker writes: Insignia of the 45th Infantry Division. The 45th Infantry Division gained its nickname, "Thunderbird" division, from the gold thunderbird. This Native American symbol became the division's insignia in 1939. It replaced another previously used Native American symbol, a swastika, that was withdrawn when it became closely associated with the Nazi party.
More US servicemen died in the Air Corps than the Marine Corps. While completing the required 30 missions, your chance of being killed was 71%.
Not that bombers were helpless. A B-17 carried 4 tons of bombs and 1.5 tons of machine gun ammo. The US 8th Air Force shot down 6,098 fighter planes, 1 for every 12,700 shots fired.
Bill Talbott, Major, USMC (Ret) offers some interesting Discussion of Aircraft Kill Claims.
Germany's power grid was much more vulnerable than realized. One estimate is that if just 1% of the bombs dropped on German industry had instead been dropped on power plants German industry would have collapsed.
Generally speaking there was no such thing as an average fighter pilot. You were either an ace or a target. For instance Japanese ace Hiroyoshi Nishizawa shot down over 80 planes. He died while a passenger on a cargo plane.
It was a common practice on fighter planes to load every 5th round with a tracer round to aid in aiming. This was a mistake. The tracers had different ballistics so (at long range) if your tracers were hitting the target 80% of your rounds were missing. Worse yet the tracers instantly told your enemy he was under fire and from which direction. Worst of all was the practice of loading a string of tracers at the end of the belt to tell you that you were out of ammo. This was definitely not something you wanted to tell the enemy. Units that stopped using tracers saw their success rate nearly double and their loss rate go down.
When allied armies reached the Rhine the first thing men did was pee in it. This was pretty universal from the lowest private to Winston Churchill (who made a big show of it) and Gen Patton (who had himself photographed in the act).
German Me-264 bombers were capable of bombing New York City but it wasn't worth the effort.
According to Bill Douglas, the Me-264 was a prototype that never went into production. Although the design was theoretically possible of a mission to New York, there was never an operational aircraft to test the theory. One reason for canceling the project was that Hitler felt the isolated bombing of New York would do more to rile the US public against Germany than any damage that was achieved.
According to Captain Robert A. Lynn, the Me-264 V-1 DID FLY on 23 December 1942 but the Me-264 V-2 was destroyed in an air raid. The Ju-290 was the designated mid-air refueler for the Me-264. There was no loss of effort on the Germans part but the project suffered from the following: shortage of design and construction capacity, personal rivalries between Goring, Milch, and Messerschmitt, and shortage of production capacity. An air raid on 18 July 144 on Memmingen destroyed the Me-254 V-1 as well as parts of the V-3 and V-4. (cite: Hitler's Miracle Weapons-Volume 1: The Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine by Friedrich George)
A number of air crewman died of farts (ascending to 20,000 ft. in an unpressurized aircraft causes intestinal gas to expand 300%).
The Russians destroyed over 500 German aircraft by ramming them in mid-air (they also sometimes cleared mine fields by marching over them). "It takes a brave man not to be a hero in the Red Army" - Joseph Stalin
The US Army had more ships than the US Navy.
The German Air Force had 22 infantry divisions, 2 armor divisions and 11 paratroop divisions. None of them were capable of airborne operations. The German Army had paratroops that WERE capable of airborne operations. Go figure.
When the US Army landed in North Africa, among the equipment brought ashore were 3 complete Coca-Cola bottling plants.
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Reply #1 -
Jan 1
st
, 2006 at 8:08am
Ivan
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Quote:
The Russians destroyed over 500 German aircraft by ramming them in mid-air
Difference is that they usually fought above land and under 5000 meters, giving the pilots a chance to get out of their aircraft alive if they survived.
When they safely ejected behind enemy lines they walked back to the closest airbase or amy unit. In other cases they waited for the ground troops to reach their position, or were grouped together by the partisans who then called for a Li-2 to get them back to their units.
Some aircraft (I-16) had extra-strong wing leading edge to keep the wings intact when hitting the enemy tail or wing.
Quote:
they also sometimes cleared mine fields by marching over them
Usually captured Germans, deserters from their own army and death-row prisoners.
The German army had instructions to avoid capture by the Russians at all costs...
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Reply #2 -
Jan 1
st
, 2006 at 8:06pm
Webb
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At the time of Pearl Harbor ... the shoulder patch of the US Army's 45th Infantry division was the Swastika... Insignia of the 45th Infantry Division. The 45th Infantry Division gained its nickname, "Thunderbird" division, from the gold thunderbird.
This Native American symbol became the division's insignia in 1939
. It replaced another previously used Native American symbol, a swastika, that was withdrawn when it became closely associated with the Nazi party.
The Pearl Harbor attack was December 7, 1941.
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Reply #3 -
Jan 1
st
, 2006 at 8:30pm
Felix/FFDS
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Thunderbird and prior division patches
I can see why the division changed their patch!
«
Last Edit: Jan 1
st
, 2006 at 11:06pm by Felix/FFDS
»
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Reply #4 -
Jan 1
st
, 2006 at 10:46pm
TacitBlue
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The Pearl Harbor attack was December 7, 1941.
Yes, but everyone knew who the Nazis were in 1939.
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Reply #5 -
Jan 1
st
, 2006 at 11:03pm
Webb
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Yes, but everyone knew who the Nazis were in 1939.
I didn't and if you did you're lying about your age.
The "fact" says that " At the time of Pearl Harbor ... the shoulder patch of the US Army's 45th Infantry division was the Swastika"
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Reply #6 -
Jan 2
nd
, 2006 at 12:01am
TacitBlue
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I see that now. I must read more carefully in the future.
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Reply #7 -
Jan 3
rd
, 2006 at 4:07am
C
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Quote:
German Me-264 bombers were capable of bombing New York City but it wasn't worth the effort.
According to Bill Douglas, the Me-264 was a prototype that never went into production. Although the design was theoretically possible of a mission to New York, there was never an operational aircraft to test the theory.
It is thought that at least one made the transatlantic crossing for a bit of NY sight seeing from about 9 miles away...
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Reply #8 -
Jan 3
rd
, 2006 at 11:54am
Ijineda
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German Me-264 bombers were capable of bombing New York City but it wasn't worth the effort.
According to Bill Douglas, the Me-264 was a prototype that never went into production. Although the design was theoretically possible of a mission to New York, there was never an operational aircraft to test the theory. One reason for canceling the project was that Hitler felt the isolated bombing of New York would do more to rile the US public against Germany than any damage that was achieved.
If it would have been possible, Hitler would have done it at the end of the war. Same as the V2.
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Jan 3
rd
, 2006 at 12:16pm
Hagar
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If it would have been possible, Hitler would have done it at the end of the war. Same as the V2.
I think the Amerika Bomber project had been abandoned by that time.
PS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerikabomber
Quote:
The Amerika Bomber project was an initiative of the German Air Ministry to obtain a long-range bomber aircraft for the Luftwaffe that would be capable of striking the continental United States from Germany. Requests for designs were made to the major German aircraft manufacturers early in World War II, long before the US had entered the war.
The most promising proposals were based on conventional principles of aircraft design and would have yielded aircraft very similar in configuration and capability to the Allied heavy bombers of the day. These included the Messerschmitt Me 264 (an all-new design), the Focke-Wulf Fw 300 (based on the existing Fw 200), Focke Wulf Fw Ta 400 and the Junkers Ju 390 (based on the Ju 290). Prototypes of the Me 264 were built, but it was the Ju 390 that was selected for production. Only two prototypes were constructed before the programme was abandoned, although it is widely claimed (and widely disputed) that the second prototype made a trans-Atlantic flight to within 20 km (12 mi) of the U.S. coast in early 1944.
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Jan 3
rd
, 2006 at 2:21pm
dcunning30
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the highest ranking American killed was Lt. General Lesley McNair, killed by the US Army Air Corps. So much for the allies.
General Simon Bolivar Buckner Jr. was killed by a Japanese bullet on Okanawa. I think a General outranks a Lt. General. But it's cool, nice list!
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Jan 3
rd
, 2006 at 2:35pm
Hagar
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General Simon Bolivar Buckner Jr. was killed by a Japanese bullet on Okanawa. I think a General outranks a Lt. General. But it's cool, nice list!
I find the ranks where generals are concened confusing. According to this he was either a Brigadier General or a Lieutenant General at the time of his death. He was apparently promoted posthumously to full General in 1954.
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9017899
Another account says he was killed by richocheting artillery fire. Doesn't say which side the artillery was fired from but it does confirm that he was the highest ranking American to die during the war.
http://www.answers.com/topic/simon-bolivar-buckner-jr
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Jan 3
rd
, 2006 at 2:38pm
dcunning30
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Another account says he was killed by richocheting artillery fire. Doesn't say which side the artillery was fired from but it does confirm that he was the highest ranking American to die during the war.
http://www.answers.com/topic/simon-bolivar-buckner-jr
Trust me, it was Japanese. Though my recollection about the type of arms was fuzzy, I'm certain it was Japanese. Every book I've read about the Okanawa campaign stated clearly that it was Japanese.
Also, according to the following link, it states he was the highest ranking American to be killed in combat.
http://www.answers.com/topic/simon-bolivar-buckner-jr
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Jan 3
rd
, 2006 at 2:40pm
Hagar
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Trust me, it was Japanese. Though my recollection about the type of arms was fuzzy, I'm certain it was Japanese. Every book I've read about the Okanawa campaign stated clearly that it was Japanese.
I believe you as you know far more about this than me. He was apparently well-known for exposing himself to danger.
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Reply #14 -
Jan 3
rd
, 2006 at 2:47pm
C
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I suppose the Duke of Kent would be the UK's highest ranking casualty. He had held the rank of Rear Admiral in Naval Intelligence, and then Air Vice Marshal (eq. Maj Gen) on transferring to the RAF in 1940, but had relinquised the rank to become an Air Commodore as Staff Officer, Training Command at the time of his death in an air crash in 1942.
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Jan 3
rd
, 2006 at 2:50pm
dcunning30
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Interesting to ponder.
What would have happened in England if the Duke of Kent had survived?
What would have happened in the US if Joe Kennedy Jr. had survived. Joe Kennedy Sr. was grooming Jr. to become president. John F. Kennedy was daddy Joe's contingency.
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Jan 3
rd
, 2006 at 2:56pm
C
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Interesting to ponder.
What would have happened in England if the Duke of Kent had survived?
Very little different I suppose, just a few people inheriting their titles a little later...
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Jan 5
th
, 2006 at 7:25pm
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Pretty intresting stuff. Curious about something. Were there ever any recorded/reported instances of casualties from all that lead falling that didn't hit their mark? I mean aside from the obvious debris from aircraft that were shot down?
Keni
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Jan 5
th
, 2006 at 7:30pm
Woodlouse2002
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Pretty intresting stuff. Curious about something. Were there ever any recorded/reported instances of casualties from all that lead falling that didn't hit their mark? I mean aside from the obvious debris from aircraft that were shot down?
Keni
Yes. Though I cannot name any off the top of my head.
Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Jan 5
th
, 2006 at 7:45pm
bbstackerf
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Thanks. I found a story about jews being hit by stray fire from a dog fight while they were in one of those trains taking them to a death camp.
Probably happened quite a bit.
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Reply #20 -
Jan 5
th
, 2006 at 9:24pm
Felix/FFDS
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Face it - what goes up, must come down....
heck, it happens even today... this year in Orlando, a young mother had her eye shot out by a celebrant's bullet .... she was he backyard, watching the fireworks when some stray bullet shot into the air by a reveler struck her. Will they ever find who? Probably not...
Felix/
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Jan 6
th
, 2006 at 4:24am
Ivan
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Face it - what goes up, must come down....
heck, it happens even today... this year in Orlando, a young mother had her eye shot out by a celebrant's bullet .... she was he backyard, watching the fireworks when some stray bullet shot into the air by a reveler struck her. Will they ever find who? Probably not...
Which is one of the reasons why they tried to ban that practise in Iraq (only 9mm pistols, in Afghanistan they fired with anything ranging from squirrel guns to RPGs)
Russian planes:
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,
Tu-154 and Il-62
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Reply #22 -
Jan 6
th
, 2006 at 8:32am
Souichiro
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Apperantly Prince Bernhard who was at the time in London as part of the Dutch Government and Royals in Exile, flew bombing missions in secret during the war.
Am not sure about the details
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Jan 6
th
, 2006 at 9:55am
dcunning30
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Pretty intresting stuff. Curious about something. Were there ever any recorded/reported instances of casualties from all that lead falling that didn't hit their mark? I mean aside from the obvious debris from aircraft that were shot down?
Keni
I'm currently reading a book about the 1st Battle of the Philippines Sea, better known as the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot, and it discusses that when Ozawa sent his attakers to Task Force 58, the AA folks threw up so much lead that some ships were hit by "friendly fire", even with a few deaths and several injuries. And jittery AA gunners often shot at friendly fighters. The aviators knew about this and did as much as they can to avoid AA range.
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Jan 6
th
, 2006 at 10:22am
Hagar
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Interesting to ponder.
What would have happened in England if the Duke of Kent had survived?
It might be more interesting to consider what might have happened had King Edward VIII not abdicated in 1936.
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Reply #25 -
Jan 6
th
, 2006 at 2:55pm
C
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It might be more interesting to consider what might have happened had King Edward VIII not abdicated in 1936.
To be fair, I think his abdication was maybe the best thing in the long term. I think from a Royal point of view it could have been best received that he put his own personal interests before that of the nation. Margaret didn't all those years later with Gp Capt Peter Townsend, and she was not likely to be inheriting the throne.
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Jan 6
th
, 2006 at 3:06pm
Hagar
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To be fair, I think his abdication was maybe the best thing in the long term. I think from a Royal point of view it could have been best received that he put his own personal interests before that of the nation.
I think you're right there. I've just been reading some articles suggesting there might have been more to it than is generally realised. The romance with Mrs Simpson could have been a very convenient way to get rid of him. Very interesting theory.
http://www.etoile.co.uk/Columns/PandorasBox/050104.html
Quote:
Margaret didn't all those years later with Gp Capt Peter Townsend, and she was not likely to be inheriting the throne.
I think that would have been tolerated if it hadn't been for what happened with her uncle. Very tragic as they really seemed suited to each other & it would hardly have made a difference.
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Reply #27 -
Jan 6
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, 2006 at 3:52pm
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dc,
Back in '67 my father was transfered to Subic in the P. I. so we went over to live at the family compound (He's Filipino) just south of Manila. My dad told me stories about how the Japanese soldiers would make them prepare tea for them. He said they would spit, urinate in it and sometimes used their worn socks as tea filters.
At the time('67) there was an old nipa hut (palm thatched roof) still in use by one of his brothers and his family. The ceiling was thin plywood and you could see bullet holes all over it.
We lived there a second time after he retired in '85. My youngest brother and his pals used to hunt for scrap metal to sell for gambling money (lil sh!t was only like 9 yrs old
). Any way one day they were rumaging around in the inner compound and came across a big hunk of metal. It was too heavy for them to cart off so one of them came up with the brilliant idea of building a fire to try and soften to so they could cut it.
After a while with no success they gave up and left. Turns out it was an old bomb left over from when the Japanese used our compound for an ammo dump. Needless to say....
That morning I was awakend by a huge explosion. The metropol came and did a sweep to search for any remaining "big hunks of metal" and took them away.
To this day it's one of our favorite things to pick on him about.
Keni
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Reply #28 -
Jan 6
th
, 2006 at 3:56pm
C
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I think that would have been tolerated if it hadn't been for what happened with her uncle. Very tragic as they really seemed suited to each other & it would hardly have made a difference.
It may have made a lot of difference to her life too. Indeed, without all that behind her all those years ago, she may still have been here now. Shame, but an excellent example of putting one's duty before one's self.
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Reply #29 -
Jan 6
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, 2006 at 4:18pm
Hagar
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To this day it's one of our favorite things to pick on him about.
Keni
Interesting story. Sounds like they were very lucky.
Kids, what would you do with 'em?
Quote:
It may have made a lot of difference to her life too. Indeed, without all that behind her all those years ago, she may still have been here now. Shame, but an excellent example of putting one's duty before one's self.
I'm sure of that. He might have done but I don't think she ever got over it. If I remember correctly the public was on her side. The princess & the handsome war hero. It doesn't come more romantic than that. In the end I don't think she had much choice in the matter.
PS.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/october/31/newsid_3202000/32023...
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Reply #30 -
Jan 9
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, 2006 at 10:10am
dcunning30
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Cool story. I've read much about the bravery and determination of the Philippino people during the Japanese occupation. How they risked their lives, just to sneak food to prisoners in the various prison compounds throught the islands.
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