Simviation Forum

Nov 29^th, 2005 at 7:25pm

Drake_TigerClaw Offline
Colonel
The Plundering Wonder!
Atlanta, Ga, USA

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I was wondering... After I master this overglorified slide rule is it worth it to later get one of those electronic flight computers?

~Drake TigerClaw&&

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Reply #1 - Nov 29^th, 2005 at 7:59pm

beefhole Offline
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common' yigs!
Philadelphia

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I would think so. I'm so slow with the E6B and I'm very prone to making mistakes using it (since you have to improvise the scale sometimes). The only problem being that the flight computers are very expensive, of course.

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Reply #2 - Nov 29^th, 2005 at 8:13pm

BFMF Offline
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Pacific Northwest

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Quote:

IThe only problem being
that the flight computers are very expensive, of course.

Not only that, but anything electronic can fail. Would hate to have the batteries fail at the worst possible time

My flight computer may be old fashioned, but it will never fail me Wink

COMPLETED: If Anyone Cares, Here's A Map Of My Current FSX Flight Around The World

My Reality Check Bounced

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Reply #3 - Nov 29^th, 2005 at 8:29pm

beefhole Offline
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common' yigs!
Philadelphia

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Posts: 4466

Quote:

Not only that, but anything electronic can fail. Would hate to have the batteries fail at the worst possible time

My flight computer may be old fashioned, but it will never fail me Wink

That's why you carry both, I figured that was implied Wink

I've never needed to nor have I ever been drilled on using my E6B in flight.

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Reply #4 - Nov 29^th, 2005 at 8:53pm

Drake_TigerClaw Offline
Colonel
The Plundering Wonder!
Atlanta, Ga, USA

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Well I would always carry both because I've heard of FAA examiners on checkrides telling people to pull out their E6B and its just good practice to know how to use it. I figure for overall efficency though that the electric ones would be faster.

And speaking of elecronics those Eelectronic Flight Bags (EFB) look awsome but theres no chance I can afford one anytime soon. Its pretty cool that theres an FAA authorized all in one carts, AFD, FAR/AIM, flight computer, ect computer you can carry, but its expensive.

~Drake TigerClaw&&

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Reply #5 - Nov 29^th, 2005 at 9:17pm

Brett_Henderson Offline
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I haven't used an E6B (or it's electronic peer) since taking my last written exam.

Long before getting my PPL, I discovered that those exact calculations NEVER applied to an actual flight. Compasses aren't that accurate (hence the correction cards (that are only for the eight major/minor headings)). Winds aloft predictions aren't that accurate. Directional gyros not only drift, but are only as accurate as that un-accurate compass you set them by.... and there aint a pilot in the world that can hold a heading exactly enough to make use of those exact calculations that rely on instruments that aren't even that accurate to begin with.

I take the winds aloft forecast by direction and velocity.. make a mental correction for heading and groundspeed that's as good.. if not better than what I'd come up with scribbling and calculating.

Don't get me wrong. As you're learning and training.. E6Bs make absorbing (by repetition and practice) the theories behind course correction and fuel consumption/planning quicker and easier. And they are a valuable part of training.. but by the time you're planning and taking actual trips... that planning log full of E6B-calulated data and check-points every ten miles or so to confirm your course and progress become more of a distraction than benefit. If you're on a VFR flight alone in the cockpit and take the time to figure out (with calcualtor and pencil and timer) how you're doing course and time wise, you'll end up getting OFF course (or more off course). And trust me.. if you're on an IFR flight (actual IMC) .. you won't give that E6B flight plan a second glance once you're in the air. Especially when you're on your third lap around a hold-fix.

If there were two things I could add to the PPL requirments.. It would be that a pilot prove he can put together a safe, accurate flight plan (both course corrections and fuel consumption) without an E6B and a pad of paper.. AND that part of the practical exam be flying a plane at full, gross weight with the CG at either fore or aft limits.

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Reply #6 - Nov 29^th, 2005 at 10:05pm

Drake_TigerClaw Offline
Colonel
The Plundering Wonder!
Atlanta, Ga, USA

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I see your point about the inaccuracies and I thought about that in private ground because our little planes are pretty easily blown around and gyro drift is a real problem. Now CG limits... I'm not sure if we train for that or not. I guess we could, just throw some stuff in the baggage compartment I guess, put another guy in the back seat.

~Drake TigerClaw&&

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Reply #7 - Nov 30^th, 2005 at 10:34am

BFMF Offline
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Pacific Northwest

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Quote:

I've never needed to nor have I ever been drilled on using my E6B in flight.

My flight instructor drills me on my flight computer all the time Wink

COMPLETED: If Anyone Cares, Here's A Map Of My Current FSX Flight Around The World

My Reality Check Bounced

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Reply #8 - Nov 30^th, 2005 at 10:38am

BFMF Offline
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Pacific Northwest

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Quote:

Long before getting my PPL, I discovered that those exact calculations NEVER applied to an actual flight.

True, they're not always perfect, but my flight planning so far has always been close

COMPLETED: If Anyone Cares, Here's A Map Of My Current FSX Flight Around The World

My Reality Check Bounced

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Reply #9 - Dec 5^th, 2005 at 12:33am

beaky Offline
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Still haven't got an electronic one, after eight years as a licensed pilot... I'm fast enough with a whiz wheel to do what I (rarely) need to do with it in flight. And it will not let you down, as long as you remember how to use it: no batteries; durable; weatherproof (well, my aluminum one is, anyway).
I use it a lot more when planning, although like any computer, the GIGO law applies: if the reported/forecast wind data is inaccurate, it does about as much good as going up and having a look-see, if not less.
But no lie, I've found my E6B-based preflight calculations work very well on most flights... maybe I've just gotten lucky with the weather data, but I look at my old navlogs sometimes and am surprised at how close my ATAs, etc. have been.
And without any pre-flight data at all, you can use it to figure out everything you want to know about your flight... wind correction, true airspeed, fuel consumption, you name it.
I do agree, however, that like a GPS or any other gizmo, the less time you spend staring at it in VFR flight, the better (same applies to charts, even... I still find it challenging to orient myself by referencing the chart without getting caught up in looking at it).
And of course in IMC it could prove an unhealthy distraction- unless you have to change your plan in flight and you can't get vectors from ATC (lost comm. or radar contact, or whatever). Then it might save your hide, I think.
I wouldn't fly out of the pattern without my E6B, 'cuz you never know.
And I've found that by working problems on it, my ability to "guesstimate" has improved.

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Reply #10 - Dec 5^th, 2005 at 9:06am

Brett_Henderson Offline
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I remember by PPL oral exam like it was yesterday (a lot of you weren't even born yet Tongue

). It was memorable for the obvious reasons, but also because it was extra stressful. I was "lucky" enough to pick the day that the FAA decided to evaluate my examiner. You guessed it.. some ornery, mad at the world, career government pencil pusher decided it was my day to hate life as much as he did.

Anyway.. what sticks in my head most was how prepared I "thought" I was. I was told it was open book.. as in.. the examiner would rather you show that you knew how to quickly find the right information than guess and be wrong. I had EVERY book, chart, graph, tool I could think of with me.. except that silly little cross-wind component calculator(E6B crosswind component calculations are almost useless (except for the electronic variety)). He asked: You're taking off on runway 27 and winds are out of 250 25 gusting to 40 knots... What's the cross-wind ? After a few, tense minutes digging through everything I thought might have that graph.. I said.. "Well, that's 20 degrees off runway heading which is about 1/4 the way from a direct cross-wind.. I know that at 45 degrees (exactly 1/2) the cross-wind component is quite a bit MORE than 1/2 (forget geometry.. trust me.. it is) so 20 degrees should be more than 1/4 so 1/3 seems like a good, safe estimate. So... rounding up for safety.. the crosswind compent is 10 gusting to 15. Since 15 is the published limit for the C172 that's right on the edge.. BUT.. since the gust differential is 5 (15 minus 10) and is 1/2 of or more than the base of 10, it's also right on the edge of wind-shear and though taking off might be ok, landing is outside of my comfort zone, so I'd stay on the ground.

I think I was more impressed with myself than he was.

My point ? Well... like Rotty said.. Drilling with the E6B while training and even after training will keep your estimating skills honed. But trying to fly an E6B'd flight plan is pointless and might even lead you into position awareness assumptions that are more dangerous than a seat-of-your pants guess. If you get lost or disoriented enough to KNOW you're lost and disoriented on a VFR flight.. I can't imagine what good an E6B would be. How much fuel would you waste spinning that wheel ? And if you're truly lost.. you wouldn't have any idea what point-to-point calculations you'd be making anyway.

Now.. if you are not lost, but have to alter your flight plan, in flight, there are two scenarios. 1) You fly to your alternate which is well within range for even a worst-case fuel burn.. OR.. for whatever reason (prob some E6B corner you painted yourself into) you're looking for the nearest airport period and need to know if you have enough fuel left to get there. A yes or no answer from the E6B isn't gonna do you any more good than your own yes or no guess, if it's your only choice. 2) You need to choose between two or more airports OTHER your planned alternate and for some unknown reason you'd rather try to make it to the further (how silly does that sound when a VFR flight has gone this awry ?) . Now.. if these two airports are not in the same direction.. how much fuel are you gonna burn spinning the damn wheel again ?

Was I making a point ? Oh yeah... If you find yourself in a situation where an E6B might save your butt, it's most likely that that same E6B let you feel comfortable with the limits you pushed to begin with. It's a great learning/practicing tool and certainly helps, if for some ungodly reason you need to confirm your own, limit-pushing, estimated flight plans (hopefully make you choose otherwise)while you're still safely on the ground, but I've long since decided it borders on counter-productive... ecpecially in the cockpit.

(confession: I still have one in my bag.. maybe it's a security blanket Roll Eyes

)

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Reply #11 - Dec 8^th, 2005 at 10:57pm

beaky Offline
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Good points. No doubt about it, a diversion or a lost scenario require a decision to be made quickly, based on whatever understanding of wind, etc. you already have. Haven't "saved my butt" with the E6B yet; that's a highly hypothetical situation(only mentioned the possibility because it's technically possible).
But then again, I haven't gotten screwed up because of one, either... I find them accurate enough, and really not a big hassle to use (infrequently) in flight. I just like whiz-wheels better than the electronic jobs (I have played a little with them but never bought one) because they are harder to break and won't ever get buggy on you or run out of juice.

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Reply #12 - Dec 18^th, 2005 at 4:25am

Boss_BlueAngels Offline
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I fly airplanes upside
down for fun.
Snohomish

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Personally, if I were to spend my money on some sort of electronics for an airplane, I would first get myself a nice handheld nav/com...

That's what I have done and I've never needed it (yet) but man do I feel good knowing it is in the bag with 2 spare battery packs.

The day is always better when you're flying upside down.&&&&www.fight2flyphoto.com&&&&Canon RebelXT&&Canon 18-55mm&&Sigma 10-20mm F/4-6.3&&Sigma 100-300mm F/4-6.3&&Sigma 50-500mm F/4-6.3

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Reply #13 - Dec 18^th, 2005 at 11:15am

Brett_Henderson Offline
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EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
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Yeah.. I wouldn't dream of taking a flight more than 50nm from familiar territorry without a hand-held. Wouldn't take an IFR flight period, without one.

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Reply #14 - Dec 18^th, 2005 at 5:35pm

Staiduk Offline
Colonel

Posts: 1040

I always had a bit of a 'thing' for the wiz-wheel. I agree with Rotty; the E6b is just one of those things a pilot should have and be familiar with. It's more intuitive than an electronic computer IMO (not that I've any real experience with one) - just haul it out, spin 'er with the thumb and read the answer.

Funny - I'm on my third. The second one walked away with another student way back and the third stays at the bottom of my briefcase. It's shiny and new and I just don't like it.
I stick with my first one - it's the one my Grandpa gave to me when I announced I was going to get my PPL. It's worn, dented and the slide rattles when it spins; it's at least 15-20 years older than I am - he used it back when he flew bush. But it's just a lot more comfortable than the new one. (shrug)

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