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Munich 1938 - Appeasement or buying time? (Read 2159 times)
Jul 26th, 2005 at 12:15pm

Felix/FFDS   Offline
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In reading from Peter Townsend's book, "Duel of Eagles", I get a new look on Chamberlain's trip to Munich, 1938, where he came back waving the "Treaty" that promised "peace in our time".

It seems that if anything, that "Treaty" bought some precious time for the RAF to go from biplanes to monoplanes, barely in time to withstand the onslaught.

The French Air Force, although far more numerous that the Luftwaffe of the period, would have been sitting ducks, and the RAF would have fared not much better, considering that the principal fighters were still the slow biplanes ( Fury, Gauntlet, Gladiator) that could not keep up with the He.111 and Do.17 bombers, not to mention the Me.109.

On the other hand, there were elements in the Luftwaffe that realized that they would be hard pressed to conduct a strategic campaign against Britain..

I guess we'll never really know what would have happened had armed conflict broken out over the Sudetenland takeover, given the organization and composition of forces at the time.
 

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Reply #1 - Jul 26th, 2005 at 1:33pm

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I think Chamberlin suffered greatly for the little bit of paper (Britains great pre-war joke). However I personally go with the "buying time" theory. If you look at the pick-up in orders for aircraft for the RAF and things like that I think Chamberlin was probably a realist and played the part he had to even at the cost of his career and reputation....
 

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Reply #2 - Jul 26th, 2005 at 1:35pm
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The french air force were sitting ducks, since they didn't introduce their modern fighters fast enough and used older, inferior models instead, like the Hawk.
 
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Reply #3 - Jul 26th, 2005 at 1:37pm

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And don't forget that Germany had the most experienced air force in Europe! I still can't understand why they didn't fit radios to the fighters, the weight would have been virtually nowt...
 

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Reply #4 - Jul 26th, 2005 at 1:41pm

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Quote:
The french air force were sitting ducks, since they didn't introduce their modern fighters fast enough and used older, inferior models instead, like the Hawk.


Compared to the "front line" fighters the French had, the Hawk was, comparatively, "state of the art".  THe sleek Dewoitines, Blochs, etc came too little, too late.

 

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Reply #5 - Jul 27th, 2005 at 3:11am

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Compared to the "front line" fighters the French had, the Hawk was, comparatively, "state of the art".  The sleek Dewoitines, Blochs, etc., came too little, too late.

Just enough of them to increase the number enemy casualties but nowhere near enough -- nor any really experienced Fench combat pilots --  to make the desperate effort anything near effective.
 
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Reply #6 - Sep 13th, 2005 at 1:20pm

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Although what Chamberlain did had in effect bought time, Chamberlain truly thought he made a breakthrough with his agreement with Hitler.  After Churchill became prime minister, Chamberlain was a broken man.  If his purpose was to buy time, instead of being so dejected, he would believe he had succeeded.  But that's not what happened.
 

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Reply #7 - Sep 19th, 2005 at 1:21pm

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Also, the Luftwaffe did have their advocate for strategic bombing.  But when Walter Wever died in the mid 1930's in an air crash, so did the concept of a Luftwaffe Strategic Airforce.
 

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Reply #8 - Sep 19th, 2005 at 4:22pm

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Whatever Chamberlain's reasoning, he bought time one way or another, vital for our survival as a nation...
 
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Reply #9 - Sep 19th, 2005 at 5:14pm

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But as I think it through, I'm changing my mind.  Chamberlain didn't buy Britain any time.
Chamberlain agreed to Hitler taking over the Sudetinland for peace.  But just 1 year later, Hitler invaded Poland.  Now, if Chamberland didn't agree, what would Hitler do?  Not invade Czechoslovokia after he already threatened to?  I doubt it.  And once Germany defeated Poland and turned toward France, England was committed by a mutual agreement pact.  They had no choice but to fight alongside France against Hitler.

But anyway, I don't think Chamberlain's agreement meant anything worthwhile for England.  In fact, the opposite might have bought England more time.  If Hitler invaded Czechoslovokia, who knows how Russia might have viewed this event.  Perhaps Stalin would have seen Hitler's attacks eastward as a threat to Russia and engaged Hitler.  Remember, Stalin was an extremely paranoid personality.  Seeing Germany attacking Czech as a threat to Russia would be exactly how Stalin considered it.  And this means there would never be no non-aggression pact between Germany and Russia.  What would have occurred would be England sitting on the sideline watching the conflict in the east between Germany and Russia.
 

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Reply #10 - Sep 19th, 2005 at 5:33pm

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You could put many different interpretations on this & get a different outcome every time. I never doubted Chamberlain's sincerity. He was a decent man which is a rare thing in politics & also a committed pacifist. I'm sure he would have been prepared to do almost anything to prevent war. The problem was that like many dedicated people he might have been too trusting & expected everyone to be like he was. I suspect he trusted Hitler to keep his word as he would have done himself. I don't think he ever contemplated an all-out war against Germany. I think the ridicule he was subjected to, & still is by some, was very cruel & misguided. One thing is certain. Everything he passionately believed in lay in ruins. It takes a strong character to overcome that & he did it with dignity. I will always think of Neville Chamberlain as a very decent & honourable man.

<edit typos>
« Last Edit: Sep 20th, 2005 at 5:30am by Hagar »  

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Reply #11 - Sep 20th, 2005 at 10:42am

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I never doubted Chamberlain's sincerity. He was a decent man which is a rare thing in politics & also a committed pacifist. I'm sure he would have been prepared to do almost anything to prevent war. The problem was that like many dedicated people he might have been too trusting & expected everyone to be like he was. I suspect he trusted Hitler to keep his word as he would have done himself. I don't think he ever contemplated an all-out war against Germany. I think the ridicule he was subjected to, & still is by some, was very cruel & misguided. One thing is certain. Everything he passionately believed in lay in ruins. It takes a strong character to overcome that & he did it with dignity. I will always think of Neville Chamberlain as a very decent & honourable man.

<edit typos>



I never questioned his sincerety, compassion and decency.  But sincereity and decency alone does not make for achieved goals.  The problem with pacificists as illustrated by Chamberlain is they tend to act on their theories that if they take the first step toward peace, their potential advisary will recognize the first step of good faith and follow sute.

Unfortunately, we do not live in a theoretical world.  In the real world, there are bad people.  In the real world, there also dishonest people, there are evil people.  In the real world, if a pacifict makes a deal with a tyrant and trusts the tyrant will keep his word, then only disaster will result.

Mein Kampf was first published in 1925.  If Chamberlain, the leader of England was going to negotiate with Hitler, the leader of Germany, he should have made it his business to know the contents of Hitler's manefesto, to know what kind of person he was dealing with.  And if Chamberlain knew about Mein Kampf, and still took the actions he chose, then he was a fool.  Sincere and honest and decent, but still a fool!
 

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Reply #12 - Sep 20th, 2005 at 10:59am

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Quote:
In the real world, if a pacifict makes a deal with a tyrant and trusts the tyrant will keep his word, then only disaster will result.

Mein Kampf was first published in 1925.  If Chamberlain, the leader of England was going to negotiate with Hitler, the leader of Germany, he should have made it his business to know the contents of Hitler's manefesto, to know what kind of person he was dealing with.  And if Chamberlain knew about Mein Kampf, and still took the actions he chose, then he was a fool.  Sincere and honest and decent, but still a fool!


True. Mein Kampf is illegal these days.

Quote:
But when Walter Wever died in the mid 1930's in an air crash, so did the concept of a Luftwaffe Strategic Airforce.


BIG MISTAKE, LUFTWAFFE!

Still, Chamberlain was a good bloke. But still, why let Hitler take over any territory?! Angry
 

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Reply #13 - Sep 20th, 2005 at 12:59pm

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I never questioned his sincerety, compassion and decency.  But sincereity and decency alone does not make for achieved goals.  The problem with pacificists as illustrated by Chamberlain is they tend to act on their theories that if they take the first step toward peace, their potential advisary will recognize the first step of good faith and follow sute.

I would have to agree. This is the reason that Winston Churchill was ideal for the job. They called him a warmonger but he realised that you have to be as ruthless as it takes.

Quote:
True. Mein Kampf is illegal these days.

I've never read it myself (maybe I should) but I don't know where you got that idea. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0395925037/102-1142458-5784940?v=g...
 

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Reply #14 - Sep 20th, 2005 at 1:45pm

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I would have to agree. This is the reason that Winston Churchill was ideal for the job. They called him a warmonger but he realised that you have to be as ruthless as it takes.



How was Churchill being ruthless?  I sum Churchill up with his "We will fight them on the beaches" speech.  That doesn't smack me as being ruthless.

But then again, if I recall correctly, his role during WWI as part of the admirality did smack of cold and calculating, not regarding the lives of men he made decisions for.  I see your point.
 

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Reply #15 - Sep 20th, 2005 at 1:59pm

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How was Churchill being ruthless?  I sum Churchill up with his "We will fight them on the beaches" speech.  That doesn't smak me as being ruthless.

That was early on in the war. Some would still call some of his later decisions ruthless today. Dresden for example. This was not purely down to 'Bomber Harris' although he was made the scapegoat & took all the blame. This couldn't have been done without the highest authority. I suspect that Churchill himself was the one who suggested it. Then there was the forced repatriation of Russian PoWs during & after WWII, knowing that they would suffer terribly. http://www.libertyhaven.com/countriesandregions/exurss/repatriationtosu.shtml

Both were done to placate Stalin but I could quote many more examples. Churchill was ruthless alright. This was full-scale war & he had to be. I don't know what we would have done without him as I can't think of anyone who could have replaced him.

PS. I missed your edit. Quote:
But then again, if I recall correctly, his role during WWI as part of the admirality did smack of cold and calculating, not regarding the lives of men he made decisions for.  I see your point.
 

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Reply #16 - Sep 20th, 2005 at 2:48pm

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Hagar,

You've made your points well, especially about Dresden.
 

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Reply #17 - Sep 20th, 2005 at 3:32pm

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If Churchills decision to send the Royal Navy to sink the French fleet in 1940 wasn't ruthless then I don't know what is. And then there was his suggestion after the war what to do about the german high command and their war crimes...

"My suggestion, is to take every officer above the rank of Colonel, and shoot them."
 

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Reply #18 - Sep 20th, 2005 at 5:44pm

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If Churchills decision to send the Royal Navy to sink the French fleet in 1940 wasn't ruthless then I don't know what is.


Wasn't that after France fell and Churchill was concerned that the French fleet would be used against the Royal Navy?  That doesn't sound ruthless to me.
« Last Edit: Sep 21st, 2005 at 10:04am by dcunning30 »  

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Reply #19 - Sep 21st, 2005 at 3:50am

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Wasn't that after France fell and Churchill was concerned that the French fleet would be used against the Royal Navy?  That doesn't sound ruthless to me.
It's common to scuttle one's own ship so the enemy can't use it, anyway. Um, Germans at Scapa Flow ????
 
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Reply #20 - Sep 21st, 2005 at 5:04am

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It's common to scuttle one's own ship so the enemy can't use it, anyway. Um, Germans at Scapa Flow ????

It's a long time since I read about this but I suggest the situation was completely different. I don't recall any German sailors losing their lives when the fleet was scuttled at Scapa Flow in 1919, long after the Armistice & on the orders of its own commanding officer, Rear Admiral von Reuter. The French fleet at Mers-el-Kebir, French North Africa, was attacked in harbour after an ultimatum from Admiral Somerville. I don't think the Royal Navy had any sense of pride in attacking their former comrades after the French commanding officer Admiral Gensoul refused to cooperate. This is the ultimatum:*
Quote:
"It is impossible for us, your comrades up to now, to allow your fine ships to fall into the power of the German or Italian enemy. We are determined to fight on until the end, and if we win, as we think we shall, we shall never forget that France was our Ally, that our interests are the same as hers, and that our common enemy is Germany. Should we conquer we solemnly declare that we shall restore the greatness and territory of France. For this purpose we must make sure that the best ships of the French Navy are not used against us by the common foe. In these circumstances, His Majesty's Government have instructed me to demand that the French Fleet now at Mers el Kebir and Oran shall act in accordance with one of the following alternatives;

(a) sail with us and continue the fight until victory against the Germans and Italians.

(b) Sail with reduced crews under our control to a British port. The reduced crews would be repatriated at the earliest moment.

If either of these courses is adopted by you we will restore your ships to France at the conclusion of the war or pay full compensation if they are damaged meanwhile.

(c) Alternatively if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans or Italians unless these break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews to some French port in the West Indies - Martinique for instance - where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated.

If you refuse these fair offers, I must with profound regret, require you to sink your ships within 6 hours.

Finally, failing the above, I have the orders from His Majesty's Government to use whatever force may be necessary to prevent your ships from falling into German or Italian hands."
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Destruction-of-the-French-Fleet-at-Mers...


These are the basic facts of the situation with a very interesting conclusion. There's no doubt that many people, including the Royal Navy, consider this to have been a very ruthless decision by Winston Churchill.
Quote:
In June 1940, the only fleet large enough to have a chance  of threatening the Royal Navy was that of France. France's surrender posed the possibility that this might fall into German hands, and Churchill acted ruthlessly to prevent that happening, ordering his admirals to neutralise the French ships at all costs and at great speed. One admiral, in Gibraltar, protested at these orders - he was later sacked. Another, in Alexandria, ignored them and successfully spent several days negotiating a French disarmament. In Oran, North Africa, a third, carried the orders out to the letter, and this, combined with the inflexibility of his French opposite number, led to the attack by the Royal Navy on the French base of Mers-el-Kebir on the 3rd of July 1940. Three French battleships were put out of action and over a thousand sailors died on them.

This was the decisive battle of 1940 that saved Britain from the possibility of invasion. With the Navy safe, the Battle of Britain could have been lost and invasion would probably still not have been possible. In fact it was won, and for obvious reasons became the symbol of that period. Meanwhile, Mers-el-Kebir was forgotten.
http://www.open2.net/thingsweforgot/prog_one.html


*PS. I can almost hear Winston Churchill saying those words. It's quite likely he wrote that ultimatum himself.
« Last Edit: Sep 21st, 2005 at 10:21am by Hagar »  

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Reply #21 - Sep 21st, 2005 at 5:26am
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I've never read it myself (maybe I should) but I don't know where you got that idea. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0395925037/102-1142458-5784940?v=g...


It's illegal in Germany.
 
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Reply #22 - Sep 21st, 2005 at 5:37am

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It's illegal in Germany.

Ah, thanks Bjorn. I suspected that might be the case.
 

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Reply #23 - Sep 21st, 2005 at 10:08am

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It's illegal in Germany.



I once read the swastika is illegal in Germany as well.  I thought about that in respect to flight sim games modelling Luftwaffe aircraft withswastika's on the tail.  Is there any truth to this, or was this just a silly notion?
 

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Reply #24 - Sep 21st, 2005 at 10:31am
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I once read the swastika is illegal in Germany as well.  I thought about that in respect to flight sim games modelling Luftwaffe aircraft withswastika's on the tail.  Is there any truth to this, or was this just a silly notion?


Yup, the swastika is illegal here indeed. German repainters/aircraft developers widely respect that limitation, but foreign developers can paint whatever they want on german planes.
 
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Reply #25 - Sep 21st, 2005 at 12:45pm

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Yup, the swastika is illegal here indeed. German repainters/aircraft developers widely respect that limitation, but foreign developers can paint whatever they want on german planes.


So if you download a Ju87 from simviation, and it has a swastika on the tail, you're still legal because it wasn't made in Germany?

Also, what about museums?  The museum of science and industry in Chicago has a Ju87 hanging from the ceiling, swastika on tail and all...

Also, the same museum has the U505.  I haven't been in it for some time, though.  Last time I was there, they were building an enclosure for it to protect it from the elements.
 

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Reply #26 - Sep 21st, 2005 at 2:11pm
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Well, showing the swastika in public is illegal here, but as long as nobody of the authorities finds out, you can have it at home. Not sure if there's an exception for museums and historical books.
 
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Reply #27 - Sep 21st, 2005 at 8:25pm
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Sad times indeed.
I beleive that it was Stalin, Woodlouse, who stated that all those above the rank of Colonel should be shot...in fact he thought the whole OKW should be liquidated.
Its good, I think, that such an ultimatum was given to the French, as they quite obviously hadnt the sincerest intention of fighting, I can say that quite confidently after reading the book "For Your Freedom and Ours" (Lynn Olsen and Stanley Cloud) on Polish pilots in WWII- their encounters with French pilots were saddening, with the French pilots drinking instead of fighting.  Roll Eyes

Neville Chamberlain did what he thought was right. He wouldn't hav e done it for any other reason. In fact, he truly believed he could have peace.
It is sad that this peace was so short, but really, who's gonna stop a mad man with a combover a toothbrush moustache, evil eyes and a policy called "Lebensraum"? I mean really, lets think here!


A.
 
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Reply #28 - Sep 22nd, 2005 at 3:56am

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Sad times indeed.
I beleive that it was Stalin, Woodlouse, who stated that all those above the rank of Colonel should be shot..

It was probably Churchill although I can't find a source quoting those exact words. Both Churchill & Anthony Eden opposed the idea of the Nuremburg trials. Quote:
The inclination of the British government and of the prime minister, Winston Churchill, in particular, was simply to shoot Axis leaders out-of-hand, as outlaws, once they were caught.

Neither the Soviet nor the American government was happy with the British suggestion. Though both states shared the view that they faced an evil regime, they both favoured some formal process of law, the Soviet Union because it was felt necessary to display publicly the guilt of the accused, the United States because there existed powerful voices in Washington decrying the idea that democratic states should simply murder their enemies. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/war_crimes_trials_01.shtml


Quote:
who's gonna stop a mad man with a combover a toothbrush moustache, evil eyes and a policy called "Lebensraum"? I mean really, lets think here!

It's all very well to ridicule his appearance but that type of moustache was popular at the time. It might be difficult to understand now but from what I've read about him Adolf Hitler did not appear mad to ordinary German people, many of whom idolised him. Hitler had many good ideas which put Germany back on its feet after years of depression, restoring a sense of pride. He had a very charming side & a hypnotic personality. Apparently most people who met him came under his spell. You have to understand that to appreciate what this was all about.
 

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Reply #29 - Sep 22nd, 2005 at 10:52am

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It's all very well to ridicule his appearance but that type of moustache was popular at the time.


I imagine after WWII, the name Adolf probably came into an abrupt disuse.  I imagine there probably aren't very many Adolfs running around in Germany these days.


Quote:
It might be difficult to understand now but from what I've read about him Adolf Hitler did not appear mad to ordinary German people, many of whom idolised him. Hitler had many good ideas which put Germany back on its feet after years of depression, restoring a sense of pride. He had a very charming side & a hypnotic personality. Apparently most people who met him came under his spell. You have to understand that to appreciate what this was all about.


I can understand that.  History Channel has a show that discusses such a theses that Hitler ended up becoming a drug addict by his doctor.  He had stomach ailments, so his doctor treated that with drugs, he increasingly became fatigued, so his doctor prescribed stimulants for that, and the big whopper, the show suggested he had advanced stage of syphilis, which we all know, if left untreated, can make you go mad.
 

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Reply #30 - Sep 22nd, 2005 at 11:09am

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while the original of "mein kampf" is indeed forbitten in germany, there are severall issues of it with extensive explanantions to the contemtible aspects of the original texts.

these are hard to get, but perfectly legal. they are mostly used in advanced history classes.

 

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Reply #31 - Sep 22nd, 2005 at 12:31pm

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History Channel has a show that discusses such a theses that Hitler ended up becoming a drug addict by his doctor.  He had stomach ailments, so his doctor treated that with drugs, he increasingly became fatigued, so his doctor prescribed stimulants for that, and the big whopper, the show suggested he had advanced stage of syphilis, which we all know, if left untreated, can make you go mad.

These are among many rumours about Hitler that have been going around for decades. They're only rumours & will never be proven because Hitler never discussed his health with anyone but his personal doctor & the doctor kept hs mouth shut. Apparently Hitler refused to allow personal examinations after coming to power which must have made treating him difficult. You don't argue with a man like that.
 

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Reply #32 - Sep 22nd, 2005 at 12:43pm

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Hitlers personal physician, Dr. Morell, kept a journal in which he vaguely described the medication that he was giving to Hitler at the time. Dr. Morell would give him pills to take whenever he felt fatigued. Another doctor managed to get one of these pills and had it analyzed. That docotor found that the pills were half vitamines and half methamphetamine. The meth addiction would explain his paranoya and irrational descision making along with his stubborness. My source is a program on the History channel called "High Hitler"- High, as in high on drugs.
 

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Reply #33 - Sep 22nd, 2005 at 12:55pm

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Unless they have new information which seems very doubtful these theories are nothing new. Read this. http://www.fpp.co.uk/Hitler/docs/Parkinsonism/VancouverSun170599.html

Quote:
Hitler's Last Illness
As David Irving first established with his publication in 1983 of The Secret Diaries of Hitler's Doctor (William Morrow, New York, 1983) Hitler had contracted Parkinonism during the closing months of World War II, and was being treated in his final month, April 1945, by Dr Theodor Morell with two exotic, belladonna-based drugs indicated only for this medical condition.

From time to time this fact is rediscovered by other "experts," who do not always give credit for the research done by Mr Irving . . .

PS. A good friend works on documentaries shown on the History Channel among others. He told me to take these things with a very large pinch of salt which was unnecessary advice.
 

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Reply #34 - Sep 22nd, 2005 at 8:28pm

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Hitler has been diagnosed with just about every illness and condition known to man in the last 60 years, none of which have been, or can be proved because as has been stated, Hitler refused to allow anyone to examin him. It is also not wise to take everything on the history channel as fact. Especially as any about Hitler's private life are going to be at least half wild speculation. Tongue
 

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Reply #35 - Sep 23rd, 2005 at 1:23am
Flt.Lt.Andrew   Ex Member

 
Indeed.
It's part of humanity's rationalisation that "I couldn't become Hitler...he was a coke addict/moustache man/ syphilitic/crazy Austrian. The fact remains, he was a racist expansionist who got into power. Boo-hoo.
Stuff like that happens! We own3d him (for those who aren't of my age, we trounced him). End of story! We can't forget about Zyklon-B orArbeit Macht Frei or any of that other stuff, because we are scared of it. Wow! Chamberlain tried his best, but it didnt stop him. Fact is, everyone is scared of Hitler. Some admire him, some hate him. The fact is, he's an issue with which the world can't bear to forget!
The last man in the western world to bear kingly power? Yes. The last man in the western world to be brought down to nothing? Yes.
But the 1000 year Reich has lived on in our memories, books, games and television programs. Who's won? I'm not so pleased.


A.

P.S Woody, it appears I've got my facts wrong! You are quite right. Stalin wanted sham trials, Churchill wanted Breaker Morant style summary execution and the Yanks wanted real trials.
 
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Reply #36 - Sep 23rd, 2005 at 2:36am

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For the most part Flt.Lt.Andrew, I agree with you. Some specifics I question as typed (maybe it's just my inability to follow it as it's written).
As to Quote:
The last man in the western world to bear kingly power? Yes. The last man in the western world to be brought down to nothing? Yes.
Arguably, and we would hope so in the "tyranical" aspect, but not necessarily: the future is the future. I think your previous sentence to the quote and that following reflects this.
 
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Reply #37 - Sep 23rd, 2005 at 3:57am

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The last man in the western world to bear kingly power? Yes. The last man in the western world to be brought down to nothing? Yes.

If you mean dictator I would also have to disagree. There will always be men like Hitler & possibly even worse. Unfortunately we never seem to learn from history.
 

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Reply #38 - Sep 23rd, 2005 at 12:13pm

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Anyone seen Downfall yet?

I saw it over the weekend.  It's a very good movie.
 

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Reply #39 - Sep 23rd, 2005 at 2:33pm
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Anyone seen Downfall yet?


Twice. The only movie that made me cry and one of the best movies ever, at least better than any modern Hollywood interpretation of WW2.
 
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Reply #40 - Sep 23rd, 2005 at 3:44pm

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Twice. The only movie that made me cry and one of the best movies ever, at least better than any modern Hollywood interpretation of WW2.



Well, I haven't seen The Great Raid yet, but I thought Windtalkers was good, The Pianist was good - and based on a true story too, and Schindler's list was good too.  Maybe I'm picking nits, but it always annoyed me to see German soldiers with shaven heads in Saving Private Ryan.  In every picture and film I've seen, German soldiers always had a full head of hair, often with it quite long in the front and combed over.
 

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Reply #41 - Sep 24th, 2005 at 1:32am

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...Maybe I'm picking nits, but it always annoyed me to see German soldiers with shaven heads in Saving Private Ryan.  In every picture and film I've seen, German soldiers always had a full head of hair, often with it quite long in the front and combed over.
Or that in many shows in the past a dozen of them would totally miss an upright target not even 30 feet away Embarrassed ...uh, sure Roll Eyes
 
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Reply #42 - Sep 24th, 2005 at 6:28am
Heretic   Ex Member

 
Quote:
Or that in many shows in the past a dozen of them would totally miss an upright target not even 30 feet away Embarrassed ...uh, sure Roll Eyes


...and in every WW2 shooter, there are millions of them coming at you, brainlessly and wave after wave after wave.
Okay, the Soviet Union was invaded with almost two million men, but that doesn't justify the endless waves of Wehrmacht guys you encounter. :/
 
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Reply #43 - Sep 24th, 2005 at 11:44pm

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It is also not wise to take everything on the history channel as fact.


I agree. I usually try to verify things I learn on the history channel that I find interesting. Unfortunately with this subject, I am now finding that everyone and their dog has a theory with half-assed proof that Hitler was a druggie/crazy/gay/uni-ball/lesbian hooker with three legs from thailand who ate chocolate. Roll Eyes So I formally retract my statement about the meth. Carry on.
 

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Reply #44 - Sep 25th, 2005 at 8:43am
Heretic   Ex Member

 
Hitler was a guy like you and me with some strange views and ideas and that's about it.
 
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Reply #45 - Sep 25th, 2005 at 9:35am

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Hitler was a guy like you and me with some strange views and ideas and that's about it.

I suppose that depends on your definition of ordinary. But then, I'm just a harmless old nut who never had the slightest interest in world domination. Wink
 

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Reply #46 - Sep 25th, 2005 at 6:11pm
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I'm sure that if you had had the same experiences and environments that Hitler had in his youth, you would have been just like him.
If there would have been only a slightest difference in his youth, he wouldn't have become the man he was in the end.
 
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Reply #47 - Sep 26th, 2005 at 10:28am

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Quote:
I'm sure that if you had had the same experiences and environments that Hitler had in his youth, you would have been just like him.
If there would have been only a slightest difference in his youth, he wouldn't have become the man he was in the end.



You sound like you're making excuses for Hitler.
 

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Reply #48 - Sep 26th, 2005 at 10:40am

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Quote:
I'm sure that if you had had the same experiences and environments that Hitler had in his youth, you would have been just like him. 
If there would have been only a slightest difference in his youth, he wouldn't have become the man he was in the end.

There must have been tens of thousands of Germans with similar (if not worse) backgrounds to Hitler. They might well have bemoaned their fate but he was different in that he not only had these fanatical ambitions but somehow found a way to put them into practice. This involved a seemingly insignificant little man from the lower classes persuading the majority of German people from all walks of life to believe in & follow him. There have been similar examples throughout history but I suggest that makes him far from an ordinary man.
 

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Reply #49 - Sep 26th, 2005 at 1:33pm
Heretic   Ex Member

 
Quote:
You sound like you're making excuses for Hitler.


Just trying to de-demonize him.
 
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Reply #50 - Sep 26th, 2005 at 3:39pm

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Quote:
Just trying to de-demonize him.



Hitler singlehandedly ignighted Europe into flames.  The National Socialists were some pretty bad fellows.  Seems to me he's earned his reputation.
 

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Reply #51 - Sep 26th, 2005 at 5:07pm

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If anything, Josef Stalin was far worse than Adolf Hitler & he got away with it. I don't know what drives these fanatical dictators or persuades people to support them but there's still some like them in power today. There's an old saying which seems appropriate although I forget who said it now:
Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
 

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Reply #52 - Sep 26th, 2005 at 10:58pm
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I can only say that at least Hitler attempted to be rational, with the whole scientific racism thing....this is little better than Joseg Stalin (not his real name), who threw people into gulags on a whim.
Both were very bad, yes.


A.
 
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Reply #53 - Sep 27th, 2005 at 1:52am

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Quote:
Just trying to de-demonize him.
Unfortunately*, you came way too late for such an accomplishment.
*
Then, again, to consider the possibilities of what may have happened to you, maybe I should have begun with Fortunately
.
Quote:
There's an old saying which seems appropriate although I forget who said it now:
Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Lord Acton stated, "Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely." I'd make a quick search for the exact source but I fear it may take too much time.

Quote:
Hitler singlehandedly ignited Europe into flames. The National Socialists were some pretty bad fellows.  Seems to me he's earned his reputation.
Your second sentence correctly refutes the "singlehandedly" part of your first. None of them would have gotten so far, so fast, without the rest.
This is the sad part, as indicated by Hagar; it didn't stop with Caligula, Vlad the impaler, etc. We are all individuals and not all respond to the same stimuli the same way every time; some are more prone to adverse actions than others. I can only hope hope I'm not next Tongue.
 
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Reply #54 - Sep 27th, 2005 at 4:40am

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Quote:
Josef Stalin (not his real name)

Hitler was not his original name either. The man who was to rule Germany & most of western Europe was born in Austria so he wasn't even German himself. His real name was Adolf Schickelgruber, a name he thought sounded weak. (His father's name was Alois Schickelgruber-Hitler so he obviously adopted the second part of this, although he hated his father). What I find strange is that none of the Nazi hierarchy faintly resembled their Aryan ideal of a master race of tall & handsome fair-haired people. This makes it difficult to understand how an insignificant-looking bunch like that managed to persuade people to take them seriously & follow them in the first place.

Quote:
Lord Acton stated, "Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely." I'd make a quick search for the exact source but I fear it may take too much time.

Thanks for the reminder. I could easily have looked it up myself but I was tired & too lazy for once. I think my condensed misquote sounds better. Wink

PS. Come to think of it, when was the last time you saw a good-looking dictator, world leader or any top politician?
« Last Edit: Sep 27th, 2005 at 6:07am by Hagar »  

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Reply #55 - Sep 27th, 2005 at 6:59am
Heretic   Ex Member

 
Quote:
This makes it difficult to understand how an insignificant-looking bunch like that managed to persuade people to take them seriously & follow them in the first place.


They could talk, they made promises and they had visions, which most of the people shared.
Nuff said.

Quote:
PS. Come to think of it, when was the last time you saw a good-looking dictator, world leader or any top politician?


I'd say that Mr. Putin looks relatively good for a politician.
 
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Reply #56 - Sep 27th, 2005 at 9:00am

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If you've ever seen a film of Hitler giving one of his speeches then you can easily see why everyone followed him. He may have been a lousy tactician but he was a fantastic public speaker.
 

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #57 - Sep 27th, 2005 at 10:24am

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If you've ever seen a film of Hitler giving one of his speeches then you can easily see why everyone followed him. He may have been a lousy tactician but he was a fantastic public speaker.

I've seen those newsreels you mention Woody & not understanding German I could never understand why Hitler was considered a great orator. When in full flow at one of those mass rallies he seemed more like a ranting lunatic to me. The whole thing was carefully orchestrated for maximum effect. He seemed to have a hypnotic presence which caused mass hysteria. I don't think it would have mattered what he actually said or how he said it. He could have spoken a load of gibberish & they would still have cheered every sentence & got carried away with the occasion.

I've seen similar response at other mass rallies over the years & I suspect that all these people know the secret of playing to the crowd, they're talented actors rather than great orators. If you've seen film of Hitler in the relaxed atmosphere of his favourite retreat at Berchtesgarden or out meeting people in the street you will see a completely different side of him. It's almost like two different people & he might well have suffered from some form of schizophrenia. I don't know which of the two was nearer the real Adolf Hitler.
 

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Reply #58 - Sep 27th, 2005 at 10:31am

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Quote:
Your second sentence correctly refutes the "singlehandedly" part of your first. None of them would have gotten so far, so fast, without the rest.


As a matter of technicallity and accuracy, you are correct.  However, in the spirit of the point I was making, and assuming everyone has a general knowlege of how the Nazis came into power, I believe you should see my point.
 

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Reply #59 - Sep 27th, 2005 at 10:33am

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What I find strange is that none of the Nazi hierarchy faintly resembled their Aryan ideal of a master race of tall & handsome fair-haired people. This makes it difficult to understand how an insignificant-looking bunch like that managed to persuade people to take them seriously & follow them in the first place.


I have pondered that for some time as well.  Odd, very very odd.
 

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Reply #60 - Sep 27th, 2005 at 10:37am

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Quote:
If you've ever seen a film of Hitler giving one of his speeches then you can easily see why everyone followed him. He may have been a lousy tactician but he was a fantastic public speaker.


For a very long time, I was curious what was it he was saying that had so many followers so mesmerized.  The I began seeing footages of Hitler speeches with subtitiles.  He wasn't saying anything profound.  He spoke like some moderately educated, yet tough-talking guy from the streets.  I thought "that was it?"  I was unimpressed.

.....Living Color's song Cult of Personality now comes to mind.
 

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Reply #61 - Sep 28th, 2005 at 8:31am

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It's never the content, but the delivery. Same applies to almost all public speakers.
 

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!
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Reply #62 - Sep 28th, 2005 at 8:44am

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It's never the content, but the delivery. Same applies to almost all public speakers.

In most cases yes & the Nazi propaganda machine was fully aware of this. No expense was spared to create the right atmosphere at those mass rallies. The whole thing was orchestrated to achieve the desired result which was very much like mass hysteria. Compare that with Winston Churchill's speeches on the radio. Nobody could see him but they wouldn't have had the same effect if spoken by anyone else. He promised nothing but hardship & a long hard struggle. Most of what he was saying was depressing but he succeeded in getting the support he needed from the majority of British people. They're stirring if you listen to them now.

It was suggested here a while ago that some of those famous speeches Churchill made in the House of Commons were later recorded for radio broadcast by an actor impersonating him. I'd not heard of this before then but even if it's true, they wouldn't have had the same effect if not presented in his own unique style.

PS. I can hear him saying it now & quote it almost word for word & I wasn't even born at the time.
Quote:
"We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old."
 

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Reply #63 - Sep 29th, 2005 at 4:03am

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Quote:
"We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old."
Rather stuck US Roll Eyes right in there, huh?
 
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Reply #64 - Sep 29th, 2005 at 5:08am

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Rather stuck US Roll Eyes right in there, huh?

Although being a deeply patriotic Briton until he died & seen by most people as a typical Englishman right down to his socks, Winston Churchill was actually half-American as you no doubt already know. His mother is sometimes completely overlooked in biographies but she was the daughter of a New York businessman.
I'm sure he had every confidence that the US couldn't & wouldn't stand by & watch all this happening without intervening if it became necessary. It might be a controversial way of looking at it but the events at Pearl Harbor on Dec 7th 1941 probably saved Europe from the Nazis. I've always thought that Churchill pulled off a master stroke by persuading Franklin D Roosevelt to help settle things in Europe first before concentrating on Japan. it's possible that he was one of the few that could have done that. Roosevelt must take some of the credit & I believe he would have done this sooner if he thought he could persuade the American people that it was the right course of action. He was already supporting Britain with the lend-lease arrangement without which things might have been very different, although paying off the debt almost brought this country to its knees after the war was over.
 

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Reply #65 - Sep 29th, 2005 at 10:38am

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Hagar


Excellent points.  There's nothing I can add to that.
 

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