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What are the top three fighters of WWII? (Read 5255 times)
Jul 11th, 2005 at 11:43pm

kraftwerk1976   Offline
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Smiley  Hi, all.  Just wondering what you think the three best, overall American fighters of WWII were.  Your opinions can be based on actual Combat Flight Simulator I, II, and/or III play, internet, books, television channels (Discovery Wings, History Channel, etc.)or actual flight/combat time.  I can only go by the CFS game and various facts here and there, but the three I choose are:

P-51 Mustang (need I say more?)
F-4U Corsair (best Pacific Theatre fighter, perhaps?)
P-38 Lightning (destroyed a bunch of targets...Great Pacific Theatre plane)

P-40 Warhawk (Honorable Mention!)
 
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Reply #1 - Jul 12th, 2005 at 5:07am

Hagar   Offline
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Hi Kraftwerk. This argument will still be going on long after I've departed this mortal coil. Wink Everyone has their favourites but I think the best all-round land-based fighter of WWII would be the P-51D Mustang. I believe the Hellcat had the best kill ratio of any fighter in WWII, 50% better than the Corsair. Remarkable when you consider that much of this was over the ocean. Legendary RN test pilot Captain Eric 'Winkle' Brown probably still holds the world record for the number of different types flown & evaluated, 487 including captured German & Italian aircraft. He was the only Allied pilot to fly the Me 163 & also carried out the first jet landing on an aircraft carrier. I can't find the quote but I heard his favourite WWII fighter was the little Grumman Wildcat.
 

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Reply #2 - Jul 12th, 2005 at 10:58am

james007   Offline
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Its all a matter of opinion. You are never going to get a true answer to that question. Every one has different opinion.

According to some sources the Corsair was a better plane than the P51. To me the P51 was the best American plane because it not only dominated the LW but it made such a big difference in that theater. No other plane achieved that honor or made such a difference in that theater.

You can make the same arguament about the Hellcat but I"ll hold on to my opinion.

As for kill ratio the only thing I can tell you is that they are all inflated and not very reliable. 

PS all airforces inflated their achievements and  down play their enemies true merits. Alway keep that in mind and you may have better elaluation of the air war at that time in history.

James007
 
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Reply #3 - Jul 20th, 2005 at 10:22pm

RichieB16   Offline
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I am shocked that nobody has mentioned the Spitfire-since thats seems to be the overwelming favorite on this board.

My personal favorite of the war is either the P-51D or the P-38, but I would image that the P-47 was probably superior to both in many ways. 

But again, this is all a personal opinion thing-so I guess there is no right answer.   Roll Eyes
 
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Reply #4 - Jul 21st, 2005 at 2:43am

Smoke2much   Offline
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Quote:
Hi, all.  Just wondering what you think the three best, overall American fighters of WWII were.


That's why there's no mention of the Spitfire... Wink
 

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Reply #5 - Jul 21st, 2005 at 3:43am

H   Offline
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I got hooked into plastic modeling of WW2 acft when I read "The Hurricane Story" (until @9 yrs old, I primarily read midieval stories) and also took particular interest in their characteristics and whatever facts I could glean from WW2 veterans who knew anything about them.
As each of these responses indicates, everyone has their own opinion, including the veterans that flew them. Obviously, each acft is better for certain operations than for others. It may be neat to think about a dogfight between a B-17 and a Heinkel 111 but in reality it would probably be quite boring to an observer. My point is that the P-38 and, especially, the P-47 hit the scene in large numbers sooner than the P-51, were fast for their time but not as manouverable in a dogfight as were many contemporaries -- if they got their guns on you, however Tongue -- yet this was true for most! The P-47, in particular, was very durable and could carry a substantial payload; although the P-51 (or even a Spitfire) could definately do the job, I'd agree with many that the P-47 was the better choice for a ground attack -- but I'd certainly vie for the P-51, Spitfire or even a Hurricane (a bit slower but very manueverable) for a tight-in dogfight.
Then you have the fact that many designs would have been more proficient had a better power plant -- or other factors -- been applied to them (the first P-51s did not perform so well with the Allison engine). For some, looks seem more important than performance: good and bad are not necessarily stand alone adjectives when both looks and performance are considered.
My overall opinion is that, when it comes to flight, any operable plane is much better than flapping your arms real fast at 3000 feet without one Grin.
 
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Reply #6 - Jul 21st, 2005 at 9:23pm

james007   Offline
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Guys I love the Spitfire. It was probably the best Allied fighter in world war two when it came to performance but it never did dominated the LW like the P51 did.

For that reason I did not place it on the top of my list. When evaluating a plane or anything else for that matter you always have to take into account not only its performance the looks but what effect did it had on the subject matter.

In other words the Spitfire impact on the war with the exception of the Battle of Britain was not excetional. Reasons where many. One was its short range. Another reason was the poor tatics chosen by the RAF like the Vicker formation that killed so many poor RAF pilots.

Perhaps the greatest reason was over respect the RAF had the for the LW.

The Americans with their Cowboy mentality of the day had very little fear of the vaunted LW. Its not to say they did  not repected it. Its that they did not fear them as much. For the first time the LW meat a enemy that did shy from attacking them even when tatical advantage was not in their favor. American Fighter pilots of the time where taught that the best defensive tatics was to attack and attack.

They also had a habbit to learn quickly form their mistakes. The LW had a tradition of keeping their pilots in the Front until they died or where captured. They like the Japapnese started to lose their experience pilots in droves and their replacements where not as good in training nor quality.

For these reasons and I chose the P51 over the Spitfire.

I have but the most respect for the RAF and its brave pilots.

Their contribution was more than substantial in the middle of the war and without them we probably would not have won the war.

This is just a opinion

James007
« Last Edit: Jul 25th, 2005 at 9:31am by james007 »  
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Reply #7 - Jul 22nd, 2005 at 3:43am

Hagar   Offline
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The Spitfire doesn't come into it. This was the question.
Quote:
Just wondering what you think the three best, overall American fighters of WWII were.
 

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Reply #8 - Jul 22nd, 2005 at 6:14am

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P-40 is my fave. Go 75 Squadron!

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Reply #9 - Jul 24th, 2005 at 9:07am

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I think my answer would be to consider WHICH WERE GOOD ENOUGH TO CARRY OVER TO THE KOREAN CONFLICT... that brings in the p-(nowF)51, AND the Navy original piston CORSAIR.
BTW the '51 actually killed a few MIGS.
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Reply #10 - Jul 25th, 2005 at 1:51am

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Quote:
The Spitfire doesn't come into it. This was the question.


It depends on what you call American fighters, the eagle squadrons used spitfires and hurricanes. Started as RAF units they became regular USAAF units (4FG), and later converted to P-47 and later on to P-51.
If you talk about American fabricated fighters the spitfire does not come into play.

Either way the spitfire was an interceptor while the P-38, P-47 and P-51  are praised as escort fighters, it's like comparing eggs with apples. The P-47 was preferable over the P-51 for ground attacks, but in a dogfight I would choose the P-51.

So the answer varies on what someone defines as the major task(s) of an overall fighter.
 
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Reply #11 - Jul 26th, 2005 at 6:35pm

dcunning30   Offline
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It's hard to say.  All of these were superior:

Early war:
BF-109 - manuverable but with limited range
Mitsubishi Zero - manuverability, but no armor or ss tanks
Supermarine Spitfire - manuverability, higher celing than BF109
F4 Wildcat - limited manuverability but good firepower and rugged

Late war:
P39 Thunderbolt - can outdive a rock, and rugged and firepower
FW-190 - manuverability
ME-262 - can you say, speed?
P51 Mustang - fast, manuverable, long range
F4U1 Corsair - rugged, firepower, speed
F6F Hellcat - rugged, firepower, speed

Honerable mention
Mosquito - not a fighter, but what a FAST!!! attack plane
 

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Reply #12 - Jul 26th, 2005 at 7:13pm

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Quote:
P39 Thunderbolt - can outdive a rock, and rugged and firepower


I'm guessing you mean P-47 Thunderbolt... I doubt the P-39 was rugged... or had good diving characteristics.  Grin
 
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Reply #13 - Jul 27th, 2005 at 1:24am

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The Soviet Union made good use of the P-39 Airacobra; a comparitively small plane, it was a bit underpowered but still served in ground attack.
 
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Reply #14 - Jul 27th, 2005 at 5:32am
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I'd have to say the Martlet, the Mustang and the Lightning/Thunderbolt....I really can't separate those two...

A highly subjective question indeed!!


A.
 
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Reply #15 - Jul 27th, 2005 at 8:37am

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Guys guys guys

You are forgetting the Hawker Tempest, which out performed the current Spitfires, everthing the luftewaffe could chuck at them and the stang.

But I am biased of course, that saying it was a credible air superiooty fighter and fast. It Tempset's knocked down more V1's, which is why they were held back for UK ops to counter the doddle bugs, instead of Rangers and rodeos over Europe.

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Reply #16 - Jul 27th, 2005 at 12:47pm

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Quote:
The Soviet Union made good use of the P-39 Airacobra; a comparitively small plane, it was a bit underpowered but still served in ground attack.



Yea, that was all it was good for.  Some genius decided it didn't need superchargers, ruined the plane.
 

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Reply #17 - Jul 27th, 2005 at 12:47pm

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Quote:
Corsair Freak,

Oops, my bad!  Yea P-47.

 

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Reply #18 - Jul 27th, 2005 at 12:52pm

dcunning30   Offline
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james007,

You bring up some good points regarding the Spit.  I would also add this.  American fighter doctrine largely surrounded it's bomber doctrine.  Fighters escorted it's bombers, went on free ranging missions to kill the LW where it was found.....for what reason?  To sweep the skies so the bombers could pass through unmolested. 

The RAF chose night bombing missions for protection for it's bombers.  The spits were pretty useless in that role, though the RAF used Beaufighters later in the war as night fighters, but that was pretty much for bomber interceptor roles, not escort.  So there was little need to develop long range Spits.
 

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Reply #19 - Jul 27th, 2005 at 12:54pm

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Quote:
Guys guys guys

You are forgetting the Hawker Tempest, which out performed the current Spitfires, everthing the luftewaffe could chuck at them and the stang.

But I am biased of course, that saying it was a credible air superiooty fighter and fast. It Tempset's knocked down more V1's, which is why they were held back for UK ops to counter the doddle bugs, instead of Rangers and rodeos over Europe.

Kernow

The Tempest was an outstanding fighter that had it not been for the fact it was held in ADGB untill September '44 would have had a bigger impact on the air war over mainland Europe no doubt. BUT, the Tempest was best at low to medium altitude and could not out perform the Mustang or Spitfire at higher altitudes. The Tempest was complemented by the Spitfire XIV that arrived at about the same time and together they gave Second Tactical Air Force a real cutting edge with the Spitfire taking on the role of medium to hight altitude air superiority fighter and the Tempest in the medium to low level role.


 

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Reply #20 - Jul 28th, 2005 at 5:30am

Hagar   Offline
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Kraftwerk hasn't seen fit to reply since posting this topic. I assume that by American fighters he means US manufactured aircraft. Quote:
Just wondering what you think the three best, overall American fighters of WWII were.  

In this case the Hurricane, Mosquito, Spitfire, Tempest et al don't qualify. Roll Eyes
 

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Reply #21 - Jul 28th, 2005 at 10:19am

dcunning30   Offline
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Ohhh, 3 AMERICAN fighters?

My bad.  It's still kinda hard.  I'd say these are my picks:

P47 Thunderbolt - nothing better for ground attack
P51 Mustang - Air superiority
F4U Corsair - Can you say, Whistling Death?
 

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Reply #22 - Jul 28th, 2005 at 10:40am

james007   Offline
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Lets not forgget people that the P51 was in reality a American and British Airplane flown mainly American pilots.

Its Airframe was American but its engine was the same as the Spitfire Merlin used but modified for the P51.

Just a Historical point.

James007
 
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Reply #23 - Jul 28th, 2005 at 4:24pm

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Also the same for the Corsair... flown by the Fleet Air Arm, and New Zealand
 
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Reply #24 - Jul 29th, 2005 at 12:03am

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Quote:
Lets not forget, people, that the P51 was in reality a American and British Airplane flown mainly American pilots.
Its Airframe was American but its engine was the same as the Spitfire Merlin used but modified for the P51. James007

 
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Reply #25 - Jul 29th, 2005 at 12:19am

H   Offline
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Quote:
Lets not forget, people, that the P51 was in reality a American and British Airplane flown mainly [by] American pilots*. Its airframe was American but its engine was the same as the Spitfire Merlin used but modified for the P51. James007

Sorry, I wasn't so explicit in my July 21st mini-booklet with the following reference, "Then you have the fact that many designs would have been more proficient had a better power plant -- or other factors -- been applied to them (the first P-51s did not perform so well with the Allison engine)."
It was reiterated by dcunning30, particularly in relation to the P39, that many acft weren't given the most effective power plant. This was rectified for some, the P51* with a Merlin refit. Now, how many of these engines were actually made in Britain rather than under license Stateside? And does the "British design" affect the "American made" aspect?
*It was flown by many of the Allied air forces (many more nations used it well past the Korean War), as were many others flown by pilots foreign to a plane's manufacture; General Thyng, who died in New Hampshire last year, flew a Spitfire V with U.S. insignia.
 
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Reply #26 - Jul 29th, 2005 at 12:37am

H   Offline
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Quote:
Kraftwerk hasn't seen fit to reply since posting this topic. I assume that by American fighters he means US manufactured aircraft.
Roll Eyes

I think part of the problem is that the entry title is "What are the top three fighters of WWII?" whereas the actual question posed in his entry is, "Just wondering what you think the three best, overall American fighters of WWII were." Wink
 
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Reply #27 - Jul 29th, 2005 at 2:38pm

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
Now, how many of these engines were actually made in Britain rather than under license Stateside? And does the "British design" affect the "American made" aspect?

I think this is being unecessarily pedantic. Most Mustangs were fitted with the Packard Merlin that was produced under licence in the US. Packard Merlins were also fitted to some marks of Spitfire (Mk XVI), the Avro Lancaster B Mk III & some Canadian-built Mosquitos. (I believe a derated version was also used to power boats & tanks.) Like most people I've always regarded the Mustang as being 'as American as apple pie'. It was originally rejected for front-line service with the RAF because it was not required for its original purpose. The foreseen shortage of home-produced fighters had not happened & in late 1940 the shortage was of experienced pilots rather than aircraft. The BoB was over by the time the P-51 would have been ready for delivery. (The prototype first flew on 26 October 1940). Its high altitude performance did not compare with the Hurricane & Spitfire mainly because of the unsupercharged Allison engine. I'm sure it would still have come in very handy in different circumstances. A supercharged version of the Allison was available but all production was diverted to the P-38 throughout WWII.

The P-38 was also rejected by the RAF. Some say they lost out on one of the best fighters produced during WWII. The version tested by the RAF was an "export model" with unsupercharged engines & both props rotating in the same direction. This obviously affected its performance & it was nothing like the same aircraft that served with the USAAF.
 

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Reply #28 - Aug 12th, 2005 at 3:42pm

kraftwerk1976   Offline
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Quote:
Kraftwerk hasn't seen fit to reply since posting this topic. I assume that by American fighters he means US manufactured aircraft.. Roll Eyes


---Hmm, well I am fit to reply now.  I have been in another town with no computer access.  Anyway, yeah, I meant US manufactured aircraft.
 
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Reply #29 - Aug 14th, 2005 at 9:16am

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In my opinion the best amarican fighter was the P51, the best british fighter the Spitfire and the best german fighter the FW190. This opinion is based not just on the combat records of these fighters but also on their ground handling.  An important factor for novice pilots or even tired pilots returning from a sortie. That is why I've ruled out such excelent planes as the Corsair or the BF109.
 
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Reply #30 - Aug 16th, 2005 at 1:53am

H   Offline
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As previously noted, the Spitfire and Bf109 were already ruled out as not being American (by manufacture) fighters; the same for the FW190.
The P51 seems to be up in front Tongue.
 
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Reply #31 - Aug 16th, 2005 at 5:34am

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??? With all due respect, the heading of the topic was 'What are the top three fighters of WWII?'  By narrowing it down to just American fighters you are taking a lot of the fun out of the disscusion.  And since so many people have replied on the wider issue, what say we continue to do so?
 
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Reply #32 - Aug 16th, 2005 at 5:37am

Hagar   Offline
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Hi Biggles & welcome to the madhouse. Wink

As a new member you might not appreciate that this subject has already been done to death in many similar topics. It's only natural that most people will be influenced by patriotism & choose aircraft from their own country. Narrowing it down to aircraft from one country is a much fairer way of doing it.
 

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Reply #33 - Aug 16th, 2005 at 9:19am

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Ooops - shot down in flames! Smiley


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Reply #34 - Aug 17th, 2005 at 2:07am

H   Offline
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No big problem; if you'd taken a few days to peruse all of the posts Tongue you would have found my 2nd page assist to a previous post by Hagar:
Quote:
I think part of the problem is that the entry title is "What are the top three fighters of WWII?" whereas the actual question posed in his entry is, "Just wondering what you think the three best, overall American fighters of WWII were." Wink

and kraftwerk1976 also corrected in response to Hagar:
Quote:
---Hmm, well I am fit to reply now.  I have been in another town with no computer access.  Anyway, yeah, I meant US manufactured aircraft.
Embarrassed
I'm quite apt to make confusing messages, too, as well as overlook something already posted in a hurried scan Roll Eyes Wink
 
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Reply #35 - Aug 19th, 2005 at 9:15pm

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     It all depends on your personal preferances really.  If you prefer fast planes with average or better fire power thats relatively easy to fly, and don't care about how well they turn, how much damage it can take, then planes like the Fw 190A. 
     If you like planes that have great performance at the risk of suddenly spiraling out of the sky, then the P-51, which requires a certin finesse to fly, is your plane. 
     Picking the best plane is like picking the best woman, you can't honestly say that there is one.  I ought to write that down...
     This doesn't really answer your question but General  Eisenhower once said that "thee vehicles had been instumental in achieving Allied victory:  the Douglas DC-3 (better known as the C47), the landing craft, and the Jeep."  I find this last one funny for some reason...
 
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Reply #36 - Aug 22nd, 2005 at 6:51am

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Ho229, I must agree.

The P40 was always said to unmanuevarable. I don't know what that's about. Maybe the P40 in CFS2 I was in had an inaccurate AIR file, maybe the stock Zero has a bad AIR or maybe it's how dumb the AI are. I bet you I could fight as many Zeroes I could handle with my ammo and get them all down. Maybe if I get on multiplayer one day I could see how good I am against other human beings.

The P51 was overally the best I must say, regardless of how much I love other planes as well as the CFS3 P-51.
 

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Reply #37 - Aug 29th, 2005 at 6:13am

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I love the P40 series (Warhawk, Tomahawk & Kittyhawk)  They were used to great effect by the Flying Tigers in China against Japenes fighters, but that was mostly due to the tactics they used.   

While very rugged and very manouverable, they were out performed by top line Axis fighters. I think it had to do with rate of climb and acceleration but they did extremly well as close support.

P40's I've used in CFS1 do perform very well and they do look very good. I like them but they were not the best.  Smiley

 
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Reply #38 - Sep 11th, 2005 at 7:49am

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Hmmm top 3 aircraft (American), eh?

Well, this is only an opinion, and worth every penny you paid for it Grin

1) P-51D Mustang by North American

2)F4U-1A Corsair by Chance-Vought

3)P-38L Lightening by Consolidated(?)

Just an opinion
 

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Reply #39 - Sep 11th, 2005 at 8:25am

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Quote:
Hmmm top 3 aircraft (American), eh?

Well, this is only an opinion, and worth every penny you paid for it Grin

1) P-51D Mustang by North American

2)F4U-1A Corsair by Chance-Vought

3)P-38L Lightening by Consolidated(?)





























Just an opinion



  Not to split hairs, buth the P-38 was built by Lockheed.
 
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Reply #40 - Sep 12th, 2005 at 11:54pm

H   Offline
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2003: the year NH couldn't
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Quote:
...3)P-38L Lightening by Consolidated(?)...
Quote:
Not to split hairs, buth the P-38 was built by Lockheed.
Well, he did question his entry but it shouldn't have taken that much to check on it. Also, the plane did not lighten when armament was added -- but it was still a Lightning. Wink
 
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Reply #41 - Sep 13th, 2005 at 6:33am

Bombardier101   Offline
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Good one H!

Quote:
Mosquito - not a fighter, but what a FAST!!! attack plane

Ever heard of the NFII? Mossie night fighter!
Yes it was immensly fast!
Quote:
Lets not forgget people that the P51 was in reality a American and British Airplane flown mainly American pilots


Ahem, it was actually designed by a German and was manufactured by North American Aviation.

Quote:
Its Airframe was American but its engine was the same as the Spitfire Merlin used but modified for the P51.

Yes, the Merlin was a Packard Merlin.

Quote:
The P-38 was also rejected by the RAF. Some say they lost out on one of the best fighters produced during WWII. The version tested by the RAF was an "export model" with unsupercharged engines & both props rotating in the same direction. This obviously affected its performance & it was nothing like the same aircraft that served with the USAAF.

Unless you want a night fighter, long-distance plane or good ground attack plane I don't recommend the P38. Why didn't they use it for a night fighter? As for a fleet defense fighter, I think it is better for the US Army just like that good ol' P40 Kittyhawk. Go 75 Squadron! Grin

My fave US fighters of WW2:

Chance Vought F4U Corsair
North American P-51 Mustang
Curtiss P-40 Tomahawk/Warhawk/Kittyhawk

Happy flying,



Bombardier
 

Need a DP for your new aircraft? PM me for one!&&&&My CFS2 Addons&&&&Schleswig WW2 Base Scenery: http://www.simviation.com/cfs2scenery16.htm&&IJN Bomber Force Campaign http://www.simviation.com/cfs2missions22.htm&&WW&C France WW1 Scenery WORKING ON&&Nachtjaeger! Campaign WORKING ON&&British Nightfighter Campaign LATER&&Atlantic Martlet Campaign LATER&&Iwo-jima scenery RESUME LATER&&&&UPLOADS COMING TO SOH SOON
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Reply #42 - Oct 16th, 2005 at 3:51am

FlyerNZ   Offline
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Hey folks,
I think we are overlooking several types easily among the best at the time.
Depends on whether we are talking about daylight or nightfighter types, but day fighters?
The top three unquestionably in my view are;
Spitfire Mk XIV
Focke Wulf Fw190 D series
Hawker Tempest

All had extraodinary manoevreability, at all heights, all surpassed 400mph, and the 190Ds were easily the best high altitude figher then in production, the next generation model, the TA 152 did not reach proper production and so cannot be included.
In any of those three fighters, the P-51 would be at a disadvantage  in many circumstances. I'd have the Mk XIV myself.

 
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Reply #43 - Oct 16th, 2005 at 4:10am

H   Offline
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2003: the year NH couldn't
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Quote:
Depends on whether we are talking about daylight or nightfighter types, but day fighters?
The top three unquestionably in my view are;
Spitfire Mk XIV
Focke Wulf Fw190 D series
Hawker Tempest
Now, which is the best American fighter of the time?
 
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Reply #44 - Dec 6th, 2005 at 7:47pm

DieStaffel   Offline
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My 2˘ worth:

The Best USA fighters?  First define the timeline.  
In 1940 it would have to have been the P40.
In 1941 it would have to have been the P38.
In 1942 it would have to have been the P47.
In 1943 it would have to have been the F6F.
In 1944 it would have to have been the P51.
In 1945 it would have to have been the F4U.

Just thought I would mention it.

DieStaffel
PS, if the MSZone closes, do you think anyone will still be interested in the planes I have made?
 

Never let history get in the way of a good computer game
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Reply #45 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 12:07am

H   Offline
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2003: the year NH couldn't
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Quote:
... if the MSZone closes, do you think anyone will still be interested in the planes I have made?
There may yet be some online alternatives even should the MsZone not relent so it remains to be seen.
I've been playing around 8) with WW1 planes for the past year. Most of the retexturing I did of WW2 planes (most of it before knowing about anything online) was for my own storyline although I did redo a Spitfire to approximate U.S. Gen. Thyng's WW2 Spitfire MkV (flown for the U.S. with applicable insignia). There are still a few CFS1 loyalists out there and there has been a slight increase of users with Atari's licensed re-issue of CFS1 on the bargain shelves. I'm not sure what the MsZone shutdown will cause since the CD, itself, includes what would then be a dead Multiplayer link; wouldn't say that's a good thing.
 
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Reply #46 - Dec 7th, 2005 at 6:07pm

Horten_IX_Ho229   Offline
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I would love to have your planes! send im on over...(i left you PM with a junk e-mail you can dump all the planes you want into) Grin
 
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Reply #47 - Dec 8th, 2005 at 7:33am

DrRedskwirrell   Offline
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the world's cutest Bare
A nice warm cave in the woods.

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I spoke with DieStaffel in RidgeRunners yesterday where he said that giving them all to Simviation is something he is seriously considering.
This would be very decent of him, allowing FREE access to his CFS1 add-on aircraft for everyone who requires it.
 
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