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CFS3 or PF - Part II (Read 1937 times)

Mar 24^th, 2005 at 11:44am

Felix/FFDS Offline
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Trying to get back on topic... One of my "concerns" with any combat simulation is of course the trade offs made in the interests of playability.

In the CFSx arena, yes it's great that user content has enhanced the games, but the very fact that it IS user content causes some concern on the "realism" .

Example. I can create my absolutely perfect P-51, with spot on graphics, but are my flight dynamics " spot on"

If I were to run standard "tests" on a default CFS3 P-51, how close to "the numbers" would it be?

If I were to run standard "tests" on a default IL-2/PF P-51 (presuming such exist) how close to the numbers would THAT be?

How would the CFS default P-51D compare with a default IL-2/PF P-51D.

And the final and (possibly more important question) given that the CFS3 "world" is independent of the IL-2/PF " world" how do the P51s in each compare against their opposition?

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #1 - Mar 24^th, 2005 at 11:56am

Mathias Offline
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Doesn't really apply to CFS3 realities as almost all addons use one and the same AvHistory FM standard, that includes payware and freeware alike.
Only exception that I know of are the Firepower planes
While there is always room to debate accuracy and source of available data, or interpretation of data,
at least are we in the position to grant a standard.
That's CFS3 facts, don't know how things are going in the 1 and 2 department these days. Wink

Wink

Mathias&&

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Reply #2 - Mar 24^th, 2005 at 12:38pm

Smoke2much Offline
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This is a question that I have often wondered about. Usually at 3.00AM when insomnia raises its ugly head. How do you make a plane "realistic" to fly?

I have for some time been trying for about two years to build a Bristol Blenheim (Long Nose) in GMax. This gets set back every six months or so with my regular system crashes but I will prevail!

I have never flown a real aircraft in my life. Hopefully I soon will (I'm getting some cash!!!) but it will be a Cessna or a Warrior or some such thing. I seriously doubt I will ever fly a Blenheim (any variant) and therefore I have to trust the game engine to make it realistic with the numbers that I input.

This is the crux of the issue and for this you need pilots with experience of the AC to test fly within the sim and give you the results. No one without experience and hours within the actual aircraft should have any right to say whether it is realistic or not.

I personally love the Hurricane, I have certain preconceived ideas as to how it should fly but I do not have any real valuable insight into it's aerodynamic capabilities as I've never had a BF109 pilot 60 feet from my tail trying to kill me.

Just my 2 pence worth. Another pointless post from Smoke2much 8)

Will

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Reply #3 - Mar 24^th, 2005 at 12:42pm

bzhyoyo Offline
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I think Bear or Bill will like the turn of this thread Grin

Grin

Is Spitfrnd a member here? If not, he should, just for the sake of the argument. Wink

Wink

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Reply #4 - Mar 24^th, 2005 at 4:39pm

Felix/FFDS Offline
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Quote:

This is the crux of the issue and for this you need pilots with experience of the AC to test fly within the sim and give you the results. No one without experience and hours within the actual aircraft should have any right to say whether it is realistic or not.

Unfortunately, we are losing more and more pilots that actually flew these planes in combat, so we have to make do with their written accounts, and test flight reports. To a certain extent, we can call upon the experiences of pilots that fly the existing aircraft, BUT, these valuable examples are not pushed as were the combat aircraft of the time.

Quote:

I personally love the Hurricane, I have certain preconceived ideas as to how it should fly but I do not have any real valuable insight into it's aerodynamic capabilities as I've never had a BF109 pilot 60 feet from my tail trying to kill me.

And I hope that you never have to live through that experience....

My current plane of choice is the Spit 1 in Aces High. Somehow, I'm being successful in it. The modelling gives it decent performance, including the engine cutting out if you push the nose down too fast (it had carburettors), and the 8 mgs make a neat sound. I, too, have a preconceived idea how that plane "should" fly, and for my enjoyment, the modelling in Aces High is "it"....

Just my 2 pence worth. Another pointless post from Smoke2much 8)

Will [/quote]

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #5 - Mar 24^th, 2005 at 6:10pm

Microsoft Corporation Offline
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Quote:

Trying to get back on topic...

And the final and (possibly more important question) given that the CFS3 "world" is independent of the IL-2/PF " world" how do the P51s in each compare against their opposition?

Very favorably Grin

Grin

Oleg uses manufacturer data and blueprints to model A/C. What did MS developers use?

&&&&AvHistory&&Gold Member Plus&&***&&Posts: 118&& Re: cfs3 or PF&&« Reply #26 on: Dec 27th, 2004, 4:34pm » &&>>>PF is still very much a work in progress<<<&& &&Stick a fork in it its done. UBI has pulled the plug on PF just like they did to Eagle & LOMAC. &&

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Reply #6 - Mar 24^th, 2005 at 6:36pm

Mathias Offline
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A/C. What did MS developers use?

Manufacturer data, flight tests and blueprints Cheesy

Cheesy

Mathias&&

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Reply #7 - Mar 24^th, 2005 at 7:03pm

Felix/FFDS Offline
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Now things get interesting... has anyone tried doing test flights "by the numbers" on default aircraft that are common to both sims?

(I'm being a stinker, I know, but I'm trying to get away from the "mine is better than yours" arguments)

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #8 - Mar 24^th, 2005 at 10:54pm

flyingbullseye Offline
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I would say for CFS3 the flight test should probably be with one of the 1% a/c since the stock aircraft like much of the sim is not a complete program. Thanks to OFF,MAW, Fox ect ect for improving the sim. Cheesy

Cheesy

I don't remember where I read this but if I remember correctly the CFS, FP(1%) a/c are modeled from real world physics while PF are models uses various equations but I could be wrong or slightly misguided. Anyone know exactly how both are done? I would say that much of the FM would be dictated by the engine the sim is using. If the engine has problems or can not simulate a certain trait of an a/c then some of the accruacy is missing. Example. IL2: equal dive characteristics. CFS3: can rarely stall. For the 1% guys if someone submits an a/c that they modeled is better than the real a/c is it still posted on the website or not? Basically how do we know someone hasn't made a plane too good?

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Reply #9 - Mar 24^th, 2005 at 11:29pm

bzhyoyo Offline
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Quote:

Very favorably Grin

Grin

Oleg uses manufacturer data and blueprints to model A/C. What did MS developers use?

3D models have nothing to do with flight characteristics. You could model a box in a 3D programme and make it fly like the plane you want to.

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Reply #10 - Mar 25^th, 2005 at 7:05am

Felix/FFDS Offline
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I think that the above two posteres have made my point about boxed sims. In the interest of playability (and costs) certain tradeoffs are made.
To say that x uses "real data" and another uses "equations" us saying the same thing.

The 1% fellows have developed as set of equations that allow the flight characteristics to be as close to the "real numbers" as the sim's basic engine permits. That's quite laudable.

One main difference between CFS3 and IL2/PF is that CFSx allows user content, albeit " uncontrolled" - as stated, I can make a box fly like a P51, or Me262...

USer content for the IL2/PF is "controlled" - you can make skins, etc., but the addition of new aircraft and characteristics is "controlled"

Each simulation (obviously) has their own core group of enthusiasts, again laudable, which comes back to " different strokes for different strokes" .

I think that each program stands on its own merits.

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #11 - Mar 25^th, 2005 at 8:13am

bzhyoyo Offline
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That was not really my point, Felix : I meant that the accuracy of the 3D model doesn't influence the characteristics of the flight model - these are two separate things. You can have a perfectly accurate p51 3D model but a not so accurate top speed for it. This is defined in other files than the 3D model.

Now, you seem to fear that any user could modify the planes characteristics. That's true in theory, but a lot of people wouldn't even know where to start - these things require a bit of expertise. If your concern is multiplayer, then I have to say it once again : cfs3 has an in-built anti-cheat system that requires people to have EXACTLY the same planes. After that, if someone wants to make a P51 fly like a F16 offline, it's his problem. Thing is he will not be able to use it in multiplayer.

If your concern is about playing offline against planes that don't have the same standard, then that's not really a problem too, as Mathias already said : there is only one tool to devise the flight models of third party planes - the 1% spreadsheet of Avhistory. So the standard is there. And let's repeat it : there are only two or three persons working on flight models for cfs3 as far as I know. And they are all linked to Avhistory.
It is indeed the standard.

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Reply #12 - Mar 25^th, 2005 at 8:37am

Felix/FFDS Offline
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Quote:

That was not really my point, Felix : I meant that the accuracy of the 3D model doesn't influence the characteristics of the flight model - these are two separate things. You can have a perfectly accurate p51 3D model but a not so accurate top speed for it. This is defined in other files than the 3D model.

This is one point I've been saying for the past 5 years (since I've been involved in flightsim modelling) - The difference between a 747 flying like a Cessna or a 747 is the *.air and aircraft.cfg files.

Quote:

Now, you seem to fear that any user could modify the planes characteristics. That's true in theory, but a lot of people wouldn't even know where to start - these things require a bit of expertise. If your concern is multiplayer, then I have to say it once again : cfs3 has an in-built anti-cheat system that requires people to have EXACTLY the same planes. After that, if someone wants to make a P51 fly like a F16 offline, it's his problem. Thing is he will not be able to use it in multiplayer.

THIS I was not aware of, many thanks for the information.

Quote:

If your concern is about playing offline against planes that don't have the same standard, then that's not really a problem too, as Mathias already said : there is only one tool to devise the flight models of third party planes - the 1% spreadsheet of Avhistory. So the standard is there. And let's repeat it : there are only two or three persons working on flight models for cfs3 as far as I know. And they are all linked to Avhistory.
It is indeed the standard.

I knew that the AvHistory folks are tops in their field, but was not aware that for CFS3 they are "it".

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #13 - Mar 25^th, 2005 at 11:05am

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3D models have nothing to do with flight characteristics. You could model a box in a 3D programme and make it fly like the plane you want to.

Anyway I wasn't talking about 3D models. The manuf. data Oleg uses doesn't only affect the visuals. It is also used to calculate other characteristics: acceleration, drag, lift, g-load tolerance, damage, etc. Not saying that the manuf. data is the only thing that is used for those, but it is the basis.

And: "IL2: equal dive characteristics."

???

Have you actually flown PF? I have been saved more than once from being killed online by La-5's by power-diving my Gustav.

&&&&AvHistory&&Gold Member Plus&&***&&Posts: 118&& Re: cfs3 or PF&&« Reply #26 on: Dec 27th, 2004, 4:34pm » &&>>>PF is still very much a work in progress<<<&& &&Stick a fork in it its done. UBI has pulled the plug on PF just like they did to Eagle & LOMAC. &&

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Reply #14 - Mar 25^th, 2005 at 11:21am

Felix/FFDS Offline
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Anyway I wasn't talking about 3D models. The manuf. data Oleg uses doesn't only affect the visuals. It is also used to calculate other characteristics: acceleration, drag, lift, g-load tolerance, damage, etc. Not saying that the manuf. data is the only thing that is used for those, but it is the basis.

I believe bzhyoyo was talking specifically about CFS3 (and applicable to all MS Flight Simulator models). I am not qualified on IL2/PF, but I suspect that could also be the case.

The only flight simulator program that I now that actually calculates flight performance taking into account the modelled mesh is X-plane.

Quote:

And: "IL2: equal dive characteristics."
???
Have you actually flown PF? I have been saved more than once from being killed online by La-5's by power-diving my Gustav.

On this note - are there published flight tables for the IL2/PF models?

I swear, you guys are going to force my to actually load CFS3 and IL2 back up, and <gasp> BUY Pacific Fighters and conduct my own tests (which by definition shall become the standard by which the sims are to be compared <insert image of me looking officious and threatening>)

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #15 - Mar 25^th, 2005 at 11:37am

Mathias Offline
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I think it's useless to discuss how dev a and b obtain their flight data, I would suspect that both M$ and Maddox games know their stuff.
Point of interest is, how capable is the aero engine of Sim a and b to transport real world data into a PC game, where are generic tables used and what portions are modelled individually for each single plane, or just in other words, what amount of real world flight physics is actually modelled into the sim, in what detail and what is being left out?

Mathias&&

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Reply #16 - Mar 25^th, 2005 at 12:24pm

Felix/FFDS Offline
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Quote:

I think it's useless to discuss how dev a and b obtain their flight data, I would suspect that both M$ and Maddox games know their stuff.
Point of interest is, how capable is the aero engine of Sim a and b to transport real world data into a PC game, where are generic tables used and what portions are modelled individually for each single plane, or just in other words, what amount of real world flight physics is actually modelled into the sim, in what detail and what is being left out?

You have presented my point of view in a much clearer manner.. thank you!

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #17 - Mar 25^th, 2005 at 1:33pm

flyingbullseye Offline
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Quote:

And: "IL2: equal dive characteristics."

???

Have you actually flown PF? I have been saved more than once from being killed online by La-5's by power-diving my Gustav.

Yes I have, even downloaded the patches up to 3.04. Online probably as I have not played online but off line don't bet on it.

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Reply #18 - Mar 25^th, 2005 at 4:51pm

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There's also the issue of "playability", and Oleg will adamantly deny this, but I suspect that some of the AC in PF are "enhanced" for the sake of balanced game play. The dive speed of the A6M might be an example of this.

I have to admit that I am glad that, for whatever reason, some planes like the Zero have been given a little "help", inasmuch as PF being played as human-versus-human competition by many folks like me. Even in it's "idealized" state, the A6M5, for example, is easy meat for the Hellcat. If the A6M was 55 mph (avg) slower than the Hellcat in PF (it isn't as far as I can tell), you would never get anyone to fly it online! With all its weakness in PF now: poor high-speed roll-rate, and lack of armor (easy to light up), we're lucky to have any human Japanese fighter opposition.

On the other hand, if you are playing a campaign off-line against AI and recreating actual battles, then it would be better to stay close as possible to historic performance.

But pls don't quote me out of context as an example of how "Oleg got it wrong" or whatever, because I really don't have a clue
Tongue

Tongue

&&&&AvHistory&&Gold Member Plus&&***&&Posts: 118&& Re: cfs3 or PF&&« Reply #26 on: Dec 27th, 2004, 4:34pm » &&>>>PF is still very much a work in progress<<<&& &&Stick a fork in it its done. UBI has pulled the plug on PF just like they did to Eagle & LOMAC. &&

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Reply #19 - Mar 25^th, 2005 at 5:45pm

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But the Zero was more than a match for the Hellcat. It's roll rate was second to none and could outmanuvre anything going. If in a one on one dogfight the Zero always loses then this is the best example i've seen that PF's flight dynamics are suspect at best. Tongue

Tongue

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!

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Reply #20 - Mar 25^th, 2005 at 6:57pm

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Quote:

There's also the issue of "playability", and Oleg will adamantly deny this, but I suspect that some of the AC in PF are "enhanced" for the sake of balanced game play. The dive speed of the A6M might be an example of this.

I would have thought that altering the performance of an aircraft to make it more playable online defeats the purpose of even attempting to make an accurate simulator. The BF109 was a far superior fighter to the Hurricane yet Hurricane pilots succesfully shot down Messershmidts. In the same vein the Spitfire was superior to the 109 but the same applied.

A good simulator models the aircraft accurately and a more skillful pilot will win a dogfight in an inferior aircraft because he is able to use whatever strengths his 'plane posseses and exploit the weaknesess of the enemy, no matter how minor they are. Tweaking the aircraft for "fair" play removes any challenge or sense of accomplishment that might have existed.

Apologies for poor spelling Roll Eyes

Roll Eyes

Will

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Reply #21 - Mar 26^th, 2005 at 1:54am

flyingbullseye Offline
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Woodlouse2002 I would have to agree and disagree with you on the A6M, even later model versions. Yes it had a great roll rate but at low speeds much like its turn rate, but increase the speed past 250 going on 300 mph good luck moving the stick. Likewise the F6F was superior at high speeds and was decent at low speeds but not close to the A6M. In a one on one fight really the better pilot wins, it just is who can at advantage of the strengths and weaknesses of each plane. Will.F good points I don't think I can add anymore to the post. The one thing that I hate in basically every sim made these days is the AI always has a better FM than given the player. If it has to do with the problem with making it smart enough to actually combat the player at a reasonable level then I understand but if that isn't the problem does any one know why the player is at a disadvantage? Both sims do this.

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Reply #22 - Mar 26^th, 2005 at 8:07am

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Quote:

Woodlouse2002 I would have to agree and disagree with you on the A6M, even later model versions. Yes it had a great roll rate but at low speeds much like its turn rate, but increase the speed past 250 going on 300 mph good luck moving the stick. Likewise the F6F was superior at high speeds and was decent at low speeds but not close to the A6M. In a one on one fight really the better pilot wins, it just is who can at advantage of the strengths and weaknesses of each plane. Will.F good points I don't think I can add anymore to the post. The one thing that I hate in basically every sim made these days is the AI always has a better FM than given the player. If it has to do with the problem with making it smart enough to actually combat the player at a reasonable level then I understand but if that isn't the problem does any one know why the player is at a disadvantage? Both sims do this.

Thats the point. If your flying a Zero then you want to taunt your enemy into joining you in a low and slow turning fight. If your in a Hellcat then you'll want to keep your speed up. Enhancing aircraft so they can compete on an even keel is just wrong for a sim that prides itself on the accuracy of it's FD's. Tongue

Tongue

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!

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Reply #23 - Mar 26^th, 2005 at 8:18am

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Thats the point. If your flying a Zero then you want to taunt your enemy into joining you in a low and slow turning fight. If your in a Hellcat then you'll want to keep your speed up. Enhancing aircraft so they can compete on an even keel is just wrong for a sim that prides itself on the accuracy of it's FD's. Tongue

Tongue

<sigh> Then so far, every combat sim I'veflown - boxed or online - is 110% accurate .... only the dumbest AI succumbs to my "skill"!

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #24 - Mar 26^th, 2005 at 3:42pm

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I swear, you guys are going to force my to actually load CFS3 and IL2 back up, and <gasp> BUY Pacific Fighters and conduct my own tests (which by definition shall become the standard by which the sims are to be compared <insert image of me looking officious and threatening>)

I was thinking of maybe doing the same thing. May give me something to do.

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Reply #25 - Mar 27^th, 2005 at 6:51pm

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I was thinking of maybe doing the same thing. May give me something to do.

Charlie - I think we ought to up in Gladiators and show these whippersnappers a thing or two ... (even if they get their concentration snapped by laughing too hard, a kill is a kill!)

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #26 - Mar 27^th, 2005 at 6:54pm

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Gladiators? How did you know I liked them? Sat in the one at Old Warden when I was a wee boy of 9...

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Reply #27 - Mar 27^th, 2005 at 7:44pm

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Gladiators? How did you know I liked them? Sat in the one at Old Warden when I was a wee boy of 9...

Gladiators have been one of my favorites... Others include the Gauntlet, Nimrod, ...

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #28 - Mar 28^th, 2005 at 10:21am

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But the Zero was more than a match for the Hellcat. It's roll rate was second to none and could outmanuvre anything going. If in a one on one dogfight the Zero always loses then this is the best example i've seen that PF's flight dynamics are suspect at best. Tongue

Tongue

BTW, do you know what the kill/loss ratio was for the Hellcat in 43 - 45? Wink

Wink

Just for the record, the "Zero" doesn't always lose in 1v1 in PF. On the other hand, if the Hellcat keeps up it's speed, at least 200 Knots, the Zeke has virtually no chance to shoot it down. The Zeke is almost as hard to shoot down because you can barely ever pull lead on it.

Even with its apparent speed boost, the Zeke is still outclassed by the Hellcat except in low speed turnfights.

Disclaimer: I've only been in one mission online in the Hellcat where I've had to fight Zekes (I recently upgraded from the Wildcat). The guys in the Zekes (all experienced) were only able to shoot down a few AI (average) controlled Hellcats. Human Hellcat drivers shot down 5 out of 12 human controlled Zekes.

To me, that's the genius of IL-2: put a bunch of guys against each other, in historically matched A/C, using historic tactics, and the outcome is almost always consistent with historic accounts of similar encounters. I think it's why, 4 years after the release of IL-2, there are more people than ever playing PF online.

&&&&AvHistory&&Gold Member Plus&&***&&Posts: 118&& Re: cfs3 or PF&&« Reply #26 on: Dec 27th, 2004, 4:34pm » &&>>>PF is still very much a work in progress<<<&& &&Stick a fork in it its done. UBI has pulled the plug on PF just like they did to Eagle & LOMAC. &&

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Reply #29 - Mar 28^th, 2005 at 11:09am

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Quote:

BTW, do you know what the kill/loss ratio was for the Hellcat in 43 - 45? Wink

Wink

Do you know what the American/japanise pilot and aircraft ratio was in 43-45? By then Japan was running out of aircraft and pilots with any experiance. So the kill ratio of the Hellcat over the Zero is there explained. Tongue

Tongue

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!

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Reply #30 - Mar 28^th, 2005 at 11:10am

Woodlouse2002 Offline
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Gladiators have been one of my favorites... Others include the Gauntlet, Nimrod, ...

There was a stage when I would turn up to a CFS2 multiplayer dogfight in a Tigermoth with one .303 machinegun. Grin

Grin

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!

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Reply #31 - Mar 28^th, 2005 at 11:54am

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There was a stage when I would turn up to a CFS2 multiplayer dogfight in a Tigermoth with one .303 machinegun. Grin

Grin

a "Queen Bee" with a sting?

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #32 - Mar 28^th, 2005 at 1:29pm

Woodlouse2002 Offline
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Nah. A bright yellow trainer Tigermoth with a dp file. Grin

Grin

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!

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Reply #33 - Mar 28^th, 2005 at 1:34pm

Felix/FFDS Offline
Admin
FINALLY an official Granddad!
Orlando, FL

Gender:
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Quote:

Nah. A bright yellow trainer Tigermoth with a dp file. Grin

Grin

Actually, reminiscent of the Polikarpov (Po-2) vs US fighters early in the Korean war ... The North Koreans would come over in Po-2s at night, and they'd fly too slow and turn too fast for the US fighters to get a bead on them...

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #34 - Mar 28^th, 2005 at 10:03pm

Microsoft Corporation Offline
Colonel
I find your lack of faith...
disturbing
Alameda County, Germany

Gender:
Posts: 189

Quote:

Actually, reminiscent of the Polikarpov (Po-2) vs US fighters early in the Korean war ... The North Koreans would come over in Po-2s at night, and they'd fly too slow and turn too fast for the US fighters to get a bead on them...

That reminds me of how many Fiesler Storch pilots avoided getting shot down!

Can you imagine a Storch and Po-2 dogfight! ROFL!!

&&&&AvHistory&&Gold Member Plus&&***&&Posts: 118&& Re: cfs3 or PF&&« Reply #26 on: Dec 27th, 2004, 4:34pm » &&>>>PF is still very much a work in progress<<<&& &&Stick a fork in it its done. UBI has pulled the plug on PF just like they did to Eagle & LOMAC. &&

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Reply #35 - Mar 28^th, 2005 at 10:41pm

Felix/FFDS Offline
Admin
FINALLY an official Granddad!
Orlando, FL

Gender:
Posts: 1000000627

Quote:

That reminds me of how many Fiesler Storch pilots avoided getting shot down!

Can you imagine a Storch and Po-2 dogfight! ROFL!!

Considering they lacked forward armament, I think it would be one of the few dogfights where you WANT the enemy on your "six" ...

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #36 - Apr 1^st, 2005 at 9:11am

AvHistory Offline
Colonel
Kinder & Gentler
NC, USA

Gender:
Posts: 577

Quote:

Gladiators have been one of my favorites... Others include the Gauntlet, Nimrod, ...

Maw teaser from some AvHistory flight testing comments, "Excellent, thanks Alx. I think you will find the Glad vs Cr42 combat rather fun. " Grin

Grin

More MAW teasers this from Mathias Wink

Wink

BEAR

BEAR&&http://www.avhistory.org&&http://www.medairwar.com

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Reply #37 - Apr 1^st, 2005 at 10:04am

Felix/FFDS Offline
Admin
FINALLY an official Granddad!
Orlando, FL

Gender:
Posts: 1000000627

Quote:

Maw teaser from some AvHistory flight testing comments, "Excellent, thanks Alx. I think you will find the Glad vs Cr42 combat rather fun. " Grin

Grin

BEAR

Ok, you are now declared completely and totally reprehensible and EVIL... sure, give us a taste of what's coming up, and then pop shots of <ugh> a MONOPLANE? How heartless can you be?

(If I recall my readings, Gladiator v Cr.42 was an "interesting" matchup)

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #38 - Apr 1^st, 2005 at 10:50am

Mathias Offline
Colonel
Toy Maker
Germany

Gender:
Posts: 558

Bear, the both shots are from tomas, not by me.
But I made this little vid, Hurry shooting Bf109 ove Libya, using TrackIR.
Right-click "save target as" should do.
http://www.gcdg-beta.privat.t-online.de/files/MAW_shooting.avi

Mathias&&

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Reply #39 - Apr 1^st, 2005 at 12:28pm

AvHistory Offline
Colonel
Kinder & Gentler
NC, USA

Gender:
Posts: 577

Nice one Mathias...you are going to replace me as the resident evil doer Grin

Grin

BEAR

BEAR&&http://www.avhistory.org&&http://www.medairwar.com

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Reply #40 - Apr 1^st, 2005 at 1:25pm

Felix/FFDS Offline
Admin
FINALLY an official Granddad!
Orlando, FL

Gender:
Posts: 1000000627

Quote:

Nice one Mathias...you are going to replace me as the resident evil doer Grin

Grin

BEAR

No, you still have that title. At least Mathias didn't TEASE people with the promise of real fighters!

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #41 - Apr 1^st, 2005 at 3:34pm

Microsoft Corporation Offline
Colonel
I find your lack of faith...
disturbing
Alameda County, Germany

Gender:
Posts: 189

Quote:

Bear, the both shots are from tomas, not by me.
But I made this little vid, Hurry shooting Bf109 ove Libya, using TrackIR.
Right-click "save target as" should do.
http://www.gcdg-beta.privat.t-online.de/files/MAW_shooting.avi

Why does the Emil spin so fast after it was shot? It looked like a little toy, very odd ???

(EDIT: I should have written "roll" rather than "spin".)

&&&&AvHistory&&Gold Member Plus&&***&&Posts: 118&& Re: cfs3 or PF&&« Reply #26 on: Dec 27th, 2004, 4:34pm » &&>>>PF is still very much a work in progress<<<&& &&Stick a fork in it its done. UBI has pulled the plug on PF just like they did to Eagle & LOMAC. &&

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Reply #42 - Apr 1^st, 2005 at 6:26pm

Mathias Offline
Colonel
Toy Maker
Germany

Gender:
Posts: 558

Gee WYMMB, just don't tell anything that might look as if there'd be something to like about that video, you have a reputation to lose. Wink

Wink

The *Friedrich* got almost all lead into the right wing, first salvo, part of second salvo and the whole load at the last salvo.
Damage modelling is not completed that's why the wing visuals are yet on the plane but physics are processed that's why you see her roll around like that as if she'd had just one wing left. Wink

Wink

No serious, secret German defense manover, roll around like crazy so that the enemy believes your are shot off.

Mathias&&

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Reply #43 - Apr 1^st, 2005 at 6:34pm

Felix/FFDS Offline
Admin
FINALLY an official Granddad!
Orlando, FL

Gender:
Posts: 1000000627

Quote:

No serious, secret German defense manover, roll around like crazy so that the enemy believes your are shot off.

<joke>
That's called the "Luftwhiney stick shaker"

</joke>

I had a FW 190 try to do that, as I caught him on a zoom up, but I still peppered his butt with my 8 .303s!

(Nothing more ego-killing than being a FW190 shot up by a Spit 1..

)

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #44 - Apr 1^st, 2005 at 6:44pm

Mathias Offline
Colonel
Toy Maker
Germany

Gender:
Posts: 558

Quote:

<joke>
That's called the "Luftwhiney stick shaker"

</joke>

I had a FW 190 try to do that, as I caught him on a zoom up, but I still peppered his butt with my 8 .303s!

(Nothing more ego-killing than being a FW190 shot up by a Spit 1..

)

<<joke#2>>
Thought the spit1's have all been send into the channel by the Ju87?
<<joke#2 off>>

Mathias&&

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Reply #45 - Apr 1^st, 2005 at 6:50pm

AvHistory Offline
Colonel
Kinder & Gentler
NC, USA

Gender:
Posts: 577

Oleg said, "Yes 4.0, but not 3.05...
Simply because it deserve to name as new thing..."

Or maybe because its now 5 months late & has aged a bit. Just five or six months + two weeks for sure

So now its 4.0 the sun gods faithful are still waiting & waiting & waiting for it. Nice to see so much progress take plave since last year. Wonder when 4.0 will become 5.0, maybe another 6 months & 2 weeks for sure.

Looks like a good plan to string the gullible along till they can be sold BOB in 2007 or 08 & two weeks for sure.

Too bad after all this time there is nothing really new in it, just stuff you never got in the box & pickings from the FB/ACE leftovers draw. All the stuff that was "too big for the CD" remember?

A 6 or 7 month late Betty that was supposed to be in the box, still no Grumman's or other US naval attack planes, some left over Italian aircraft from FB that were never delivered. I guess with the British fleet at Pearl harbor on 7 Dec 1941 some left over central European maps for Pacific Fighters makes perfect sense, great stuff.

Nothing new all stuff owed for ages but I am sure y'all are still really hot for this fabulous whatever. Oleg has just got to love guys that will buy the same story & product over & over again.

Finally an update to 4.0 since last time was 3.05 so we don't forget whats still not there:

4.0 will not even have the rest of the planes and Maps needed to bring Pacific Fighter up to grade as promised. Most of the planes will dedicated to the European Theater.

There is no map yet done for this system that is wide enough to place two task forces at historical distances.

That being said, You will never get US or IJN battleships so you cant do a proper Pearl Harbor. You will never get USN torpedo bombers or Yorktown class carriers so you cant do a proper Coral Sea or Battle of Midway . You will never get the B-17 or an adequate Solomon Islands map including Rabual or the northern PNG islands so you cant do a proper Guadalcanal campaign with the Tokyo Express running the slot.

You will never get the B-24 the most heavily use US bomber in the PTO. You will never get Japanese BB,CV,CA,CL and DD's so you can't do a proper Battle of the Philippine Sea. You will never get B-29's so you cant do Siapan/Tinian. *You will not get the Betty one of Japans mainstays throughout the war.* Oleg says just two weeks for sure on this one.

You will not get the B-25J "Hard-nosed" and the cannon armed B-25H for the Island hopping campaigns. You will not get the F4U-4 or P-47N so you cant do a proper Battle for Okinawa. You will never get Cribbage's PBY so all the people who contributed to it are out in the cold.

One really has to wonder what kind of historical Pacific War can be simulated with all these missing parts.

BTW: IR track 6DOF will not be there either, but not to despair maybe the Val will finally get its hinomaru the F4F & A6M2 proper flight models.

BEAR

Actual fan comments from UBI/PF forums posted Wed March 30 2005 16:14

"Its a proven Psycho treatment, keep the patient on edge for "very soon" until Free Patch 3.05 turns Free Addon 4.0" that turns Full Paid BoB 1.0. We won't even know the time passed, thinking we get FBP Patch in just 2 weeks, and BANG! BANG! we have BoB."

"We have been waiting for the "add-on" since October. Supposedly the planes were already done and there was just not room on the CD."

"Patient? WTH do you think the community HAS been dooing? This isnt a patch rant, but most of the community has been patiently waiting since they purchased PF. If the patch isnt going to be released soon I wish they( ubi,madd ) would just shut the hell up about it. They keep dangling carrots in front of us and then we dont hear anything concrete."

"I think people have been so patient on this one they've started to leave."

« Last Edit: Apr 3^rd, 2005 at 9:16pm by AvHistory »

BEAR&&http://www.avhistory.org&&http://www.medairwar.com

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Reply #46 - Apr 1^st, 2005 at 7:14pm

Microsoft Corporation Offline
Colonel
I find your lack of faith...
disturbing
Alameda County, Germany

Gender:
Posts: 189

Quote:

Gee WYMMB, just don't tell anything that might look as if there'd be something to like about that video, you have a reputation to lose. Wink

Wink

The *Friedrich* got almost all lead into the right wing, first salvo, part of second salvo and the whole load at the last salvo.
Damage modelling is not completed that's why the wing visuals are yet on the plane but physics are processed that's why you see her roll around like that as if she'd had just one wing left. Wink

Wink

No serious, secret German defense manover, roll around like crazy so that the enemy believes your are shot off.

Thanks for the clarification. Indeed that roll was what I would expect with a wing missing!

I just hope that was an AI in the Friedrich letting himself get owned by a Hurri. I can guarantee you no Hurri is ever gonna run me down like that if I'm in a 109F, only in the Emil would it even be possible, hence my mistaken assumption.

BTW The clouds looked great! Any ETA on when I might get my own copy of MAW?

&&&&AvHistory&&Gold Member Plus&&***&&Posts: 118&& Re: cfs3 or PF&&« Reply #26 on: Dec 27th, 2004, 4:34pm » &&>>>PF is still very much a work in progress<<<&& &&Stick a fork in it its done. UBI has pulled the plug on PF just like they did to Eagle & LOMAC. &&

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Reply #47 - Apr 1^st, 2005 at 7:19pm

cwojackson Offline
1st Lieutenant
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Posts: 2

It appears the Cult of the Stormovich is getting desparate. I guess that happens when you have to wait so long for the Big Patch that will provide the much needed London Bus model for the Pacific Theater.

Give it a rest guys, go back home to your own forum and start multiple threads on why you love IL2 so much.

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Reply #48 - Apr 1^st, 2005 at 7:56pm

AvHistory Offline
Colonel
Kinder & Gentler
NC, USA

Gender:
Posts: 577

Quote:

BTW The clouds looked great!

Those are the same old clouds we always had. Wait till you see the new water. Shocked

Shocked

BEAR

Actual fan comments from UBI/PF forums posted Wed March 30 2005 16:14

"Its a proven Psycho treatment, keep the patient on edge for "very soon" until Free Patch 3.05 turns Free Addon 4.0" that turns Full Paid BoB 1.0. We won't even know the time passed, thinking we get FBP Patch in just 2 weeks, and BANG! BANG! we have BoB."

"We have been waiting for the "add-on" since October. Supposedly the planes were already done and there was just not room on the CD."

"Patient? WTH do you think the community HAS been dooing? This isnt a patch rant, but most of the community has been patiently waiting since they purchased PF. If the patch isnt going to be released soon I wish they( ubi,madd ) would just shut the hell up about it. They keep dangling carrots in front of us and then we dont hear anything concrete."

"I think people have been so patient on this one they've started to leave."

« Last Edit: Apr 3^rd, 2005 at 9:16pm by AvHistory »

BEAR&&http://www.avhistory.org&&http://www.medairwar.com

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Reply #49 - Apr 1^st, 2005 at 9:20pm

farmerdave Offline
Colonel
St. Clairsville Red Devils!
St. Clairsville Ohio

Gender:
Posts: 447

Pardon my igonorance, but what's TrackIR?

&&&&&&&&&&

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Reply #50 - Apr 1^st, 2005 at 10:14pm

Felix/FFDS Offline
Admin
FINALLY an official Granddad!
Orlando, FL

Gender:
Posts: 1000000627

Quote:

<<joke#2>>
Thought the spit1's have all been send into the channel by the Ju87?
<<joke#2 off>>

hehe - I can remember times when my rear end has been handed to me by a well flown Ju87 ...

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #51 - Apr 1^st, 2005 at 10:51pm

AvHistory Offline
Colonel
Kinder & Gentler
NC, USA

Gender:
Posts: 577

Quote:

Pardon my igonorance, but what's TrackIR?

http://www.naturalpoint.com/trackir/games/cfs3.html

BEAR

BEAR&&http://www.avhistory.org&&http://www.medairwar.com

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Reply #52 - Apr 1^st, 2005 at 11:53pm

Smoke2much Offline
Colonel
The Unrepentant Heretic
Sittingbourne, Kent,

Posts: 3879

I have an idea that will solve this debate once and for all!

My suggestion is that one person from each camp volunteers to jump from an aircraft at 5000 feet holding only an official CD from their favourite game/air combat simulation*.

The one with the fewest injuries clearly has the better game/air combat simulation*. This should clarify matters and allow two lucky volunteers to demonstrate their loyalty to the two opposing gods of WW2 computer fighter combat. This human sacrifice to Bill and Oleg may also make them smile on the flight sim community and release new software for the rest of us to enjoy/despise*.

So what do you guys think? Any volunteers?

Will Grin

Grin

* - Delete as applicable

Who switched the lights off? I can't see a thing....... Hold on, my eyes were closed. Oops, my bad...............&&

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Reply #53 - Apr 2^nd, 2005 at 10:27am

Woodlouse2002 Offline
Colonel
I like jam.
Cornwall, England

Gender:
Posts: 12574

Quote:

I just hope that was an AI in the Friedrich letting himself get owned by a Hurri. I can guarantee you no Hurri is ever gonna run me down like that if I'm in a 109F, only in the Emil would it even be possible, hence my mistaken assumption.

Don't under estimate the Hurri. It can out turn just about anything. Tongue

Tongue

Woodlouse2002 PITA and BAR!!!!!!!!&&&&Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King.&&&&Viva la revolution!

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Reply #54 - Apr 2^nd, 2005 at 10:32am

Felix/FFDS Offline
Admin
FINALLY an official Granddad!
Orlando, FL

Gender:
Posts: 1000000627

Quote:

I just hope that was an AI in the Friedrich letting himself get owned by a Hurri. I can guarantee you no Hurri is ever gonna run me down like that if I'm in a 109F, only in the Emil would it even be possible, hence my mistaken assumption.

To add to Woody's comments ... maybe not YOU, but given the proper conditions, a Hurri sneaks up on you ... (or dives down ) ....

Even in simulated air combat, "that'll never happen to me" has a nasty way of biting me in my ample seating area...

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #55 - Apr 3^rd, 2005 at 10:39am

AvHistory Offline
Colonel
Kinder & Gentler
NC, USA

Gender:
Posts: 577

Updated MAW movie by Wildbat....pay carefull attention to the part where the fighter parks under the cammo nets.

ADSL:
http://www.nyzone.dk/jg99/med_promo.wmv

MODEM:
http://www.nyzone.dk/jg99/med_promo_small.wmv
__________________
JG99 Geschwaderkommodore Oberst WildBat

BEAR

BEAR&&http://www.avhistory.org&&http://www.medairwar.com

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