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CFS3 or PF - Part II (Read 1932 times)

Mar 24^th, 2005 at 11:44am

Felix/FFDS Offline
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Trying to get back on topic... One of my "concerns" with any combat simulation is of course the trade offs made in the interests of playability.

In the CFSx arena, yes it's great that user content has enhanced the games, but the very fact that it IS user content causes some concern on the "realism" .

Example. I can create my absolutely perfect P-51, with spot on graphics, but are my flight dynamics " spot on"

If I were to run standard "tests" on a default CFS3 P-51, how close to "the numbers" would it be?

If I were to run standard "tests" on a default IL-2/PF P-51 (presuming such exist) how close to the numbers would THAT be?

How would the CFS default P-51D compare with a default IL-2/PF P-51D.

And the final and (possibly more important question) given that the CFS3 "world" is independent of the IL-2/PF " world" how do the P51s in each compare against their opposition?

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #1 - Mar 24^th, 2005 at 11:56am

Mathias Offline
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Doesn't really apply to CFS3 realities as almost all addons use one and the same AvHistory FM standard, that includes payware and freeware alike.
Only exception that I know of are the Firepower planes
While there is always room to debate accuracy and source of available data, or interpretation of data,
at least are we in the position to grant a standard.
That's CFS3 facts, don't know how things are going in the 1 and 2 department these days. Wink

Wink

Mathias&&

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Reply #2 - Mar 24^th, 2005 at 12:38pm

Smoke2much Offline
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This is a question that I have often wondered about. Usually at 3.00AM when insomnia raises its ugly head. How do you make a plane "realistic" to fly?

I have for some time been trying for about two years to build a Bristol Blenheim (Long Nose) in GMax. This gets set back every six months or so with my regular system crashes but I will prevail!

I have never flown a real aircraft in my life. Hopefully I soon will (I'm getting some cash!!!) but it will be a Cessna or a Warrior or some such thing. I seriously doubt I will ever fly a Blenheim (any variant) and therefore I have to trust the game engine to make it realistic with the numbers that I input.

This is the crux of the issue and for this you need pilots with experience of the AC to test fly within the sim and give you the results. No one without experience and hours within the actual aircraft should have any right to say whether it is realistic or not.

I personally love the Hurricane, I have certain preconceived ideas as to how it should fly but I do not have any real valuable insight into it's aerodynamic capabilities as I've never had a BF109 pilot 60 feet from my tail trying to kill me.

Just my 2 pence worth. Another pointless post from Smoke2much 8)

Will

Who switched the lights off? I can't see a thing....... Hold on, my eyes were closed. Oops, my bad...............&&

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Reply #3 - Mar 24^th, 2005 at 12:42pm

bzhyoyo Offline
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I think Bear or Bill will like the turn of this thread Grin

Grin

Is Spitfrnd a member here? If not, he should, just for the sake of the argument. Wink

Wink

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Reply #4 - Mar 24^th, 2005 at 4:39pm

Felix/FFDS Offline
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Quote:

This is the crux of the issue and for this you need pilots with experience of the AC to test fly within the sim and give you the results. No one without experience and hours within the actual aircraft should have any right to say whether it is realistic or not.

Unfortunately, we are losing more and more pilots that actually flew these planes in combat, so we have to make do with their written accounts, and test flight reports. To a certain extent, we can call upon the experiences of pilots that fly the existing aircraft, BUT, these valuable examples are not pushed as were the combat aircraft of the time.

Quote:

I personally love the Hurricane, I have certain preconceived ideas as to how it should fly but I do not have any real valuable insight into it's aerodynamic capabilities as I've never had a BF109 pilot 60 feet from my tail trying to kill me.

And I hope that you never have to live through that experience....

My current plane of choice is the Spit 1 in Aces High. Somehow, I'm being successful in it. The modelling gives it decent performance, including the engine cutting out if you push the nose down too fast (it had carburettors), and the 8 mgs make a neat sound. I, too, have a preconceived idea how that plane "should" fly, and for my enjoyment, the modelling in Aces High is "it"....

Just my 2 pence worth. Another pointless post from Smoke2much 8)

Will [/quote]

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #5 - Mar 24^th, 2005 at 6:10pm

Microsoft Corporation Offline
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Quote:

Trying to get back on topic...

And the final and (possibly more important question) given that the CFS3 "world" is independent of the IL-2/PF " world" how do the P51s in each compare against their opposition?

Very favorably Grin

Grin

Oleg uses manufacturer data and blueprints to model A/C. What did MS developers use?

&&&&AvHistory&&Gold Member Plus&&***&&Posts: 118&& Re: cfs3 or PF&&« Reply #26 on: Dec 27th, 2004, 4:34pm » &&>>>PF is still very much a work in progress<<<&& &&Stick a fork in it its done. UBI has pulled the plug on PF just like they did to Eagle & LOMAC. &&

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Reply #6 - Mar 24^th, 2005 at 6:36pm

Mathias Offline
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Quote:

A/C. What did MS developers use?

Manufacturer data, flight tests and blueprints Cheesy

Cheesy

Mathias&&

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Reply #7 - Mar 24^th, 2005 at 7:03pm

Felix/FFDS Offline
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Now things get interesting... has anyone tried doing test flights "by the numbers" on default aircraft that are common to both sims?

(I'm being a stinker, I know, but I'm trying to get away from the "mine is better than yours" arguments)

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #8 - Mar 24^th, 2005 at 10:54pm

flyingbullseye Offline
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I would say for CFS3 the flight test should probably be with one of the 1% a/c since the stock aircraft like much of the sim is not a complete program. Thanks to OFF,MAW, Fox ect ect for improving the sim. Cheesy

Cheesy

I don't remember where I read this but if I remember correctly the CFS, FP(1%) a/c are modeled from real world physics while PF are models uses various equations but I could be wrong or slightly misguided. Anyone know exactly how both are done? I would say that much of the FM would be dictated by the engine the sim is using. If the engine has problems or can not simulate a certain trait of an a/c then some of the accruacy is missing. Example. IL2: equal dive characteristics. CFS3: can rarely stall. For the 1% guys if someone submits an a/c that they modeled is better than the real a/c is it still posted on the website or not? Basically how do we know someone hasn't made a plane too good?

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Reply #9 - Mar 24^th, 2005 at 11:29pm

bzhyoyo Offline
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Quote:

Very favorably Grin

Grin

Oleg uses manufacturer data and blueprints to model A/C. What did MS developers use?

3D models have nothing to do with flight characteristics. You could model a box in a 3D programme and make it fly like the plane you want to.

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Reply #10 - Mar 25^th, 2005 at 7:05am

Felix/FFDS Offline
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I think that the above two posteres have made my point about boxed sims. In the interest of playability (and costs) certain tradeoffs are made.
To say that x uses "real data" and another uses "equations" us saying the same thing.

The 1% fellows have developed as set of equations that allow the flight characteristics to be as close to the "real numbers" as the sim's basic engine permits. That's quite laudable.

One main difference between CFS3 and IL2/PF is that CFSx allows user content, albeit " uncontrolled" - as stated, I can make a box fly like a P51, or Me262...

USer content for the IL2/PF is "controlled" - you can make skins, etc., but the addition of new aircraft and characteristics is "controlled"

Each simulation (obviously) has their own core group of enthusiasts, again laudable, which comes back to " different strokes for different strokes" .

I think that each program stands on its own merits.

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #11 - Mar 25^th, 2005 at 8:13am

bzhyoyo Offline
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That was not really my point, Felix : I meant that the accuracy of the 3D model doesn't influence the characteristics of the flight model - these are two separate things. You can have a perfectly accurate p51 3D model but a not so accurate top speed for it. This is defined in other files than the 3D model.

Now, you seem to fear that any user could modify the planes characteristics. That's true in theory, but a lot of people wouldn't even know where to start - these things require a bit of expertise. If your concern is multiplayer, then I have to say it once again : cfs3 has an in-built anti-cheat system that requires people to have EXACTLY the same planes. After that, if someone wants to make a P51 fly like a F16 offline, it's his problem. Thing is he will not be able to use it in multiplayer.

If your concern is about playing offline against planes that don't have the same standard, then that's not really a problem too, as Mathias already said : there is only one tool to devise the flight models of third party planes - the 1% spreadsheet of Avhistory. So the standard is there. And let's repeat it : there are only two or three persons working on flight models for cfs3 as far as I know. And they are all linked to Avhistory.
It is indeed the standard.

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Reply #12 - Mar 25^th, 2005 at 8:37am

Felix/FFDS Offline
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Quote:

That was not really my point, Felix : I meant that the accuracy of the 3D model doesn't influence the characteristics of the flight model - these are two separate things. You can have a perfectly accurate p51 3D model but a not so accurate top speed for it. This is defined in other files than the 3D model.

This is one point I've been saying for the past 5 years (since I've been involved in flightsim modelling) - The difference between a 747 flying like a Cessna or a 747 is the *.air and aircraft.cfg files.

Quote:

Now, you seem to fear that any user could modify the planes characteristics. That's true in theory, but a lot of people wouldn't even know where to start - these things require a bit of expertise. If your concern is multiplayer, then I have to say it once again : cfs3 has an in-built anti-cheat system that requires people to have EXACTLY the same planes. After that, if someone wants to make a P51 fly like a F16 offline, it's his problem. Thing is he will not be able to use it in multiplayer.

THIS I was not aware of, many thanks for the information.

Quote:

If your concern is about playing offline against planes that don't have the same standard, then that's not really a problem too, as Mathias already said : there is only one tool to devise the flight models of third party planes - the 1% spreadsheet of Avhistory. So the standard is there. And let's repeat it : there are only two or three persons working on flight models for cfs3 as far as I know. And they are all linked to Avhistory.
It is indeed the standard.

I knew that the AvHistory folks are tops in their field, but was not aware that for CFS3 they are "it".

Felix/FFDS

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Reply #13 - Mar 25^th, 2005 at 11:05am

Microsoft Corporation Offline
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Quote:

3D models have nothing to do with flight characteristics. You could model a box in a 3D programme and make it fly like the plane you want to.

Anyway I wasn't talking about 3D models. The manuf. data Oleg uses doesn't only affect the visuals. It is also used to calculate other characteristics: acceleration, drag, lift, g-load tolerance, damage, etc. Not saying that the manuf. data is the only thing that is used for those, but it is the basis.

And: "IL2: equal dive characteristics."

???

Have you actually flown PF? I have been saved more than once from being killed online by La-5's by power-diving my Gustav.

&&&&AvHistory&&Gold Member Plus&&***&&Posts: 118&& Re: cfs3 or PF&&« Reply #26 on: Dec 27th, 2004, 4:34pm » &&>>>PF is still very much a work in progress<<<&& &&Stick a fork in it its done. UBI has pulled the plug on PF just like they did to Eagle & LOMAC. &&

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Reply #14 - Mar 25^th, 2005 at 11:21am

Felix/FFDS Offline
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Quote:

Anyway I wasn't talking about 3D models. The manuf. data Oleg uses doesn't only affect the visuals. It is also used to calculate other characteristics: acceleration, drag, lift, g-load tolerance, damage, etc. Not saying that the manuf. data is the only thing that is used for those, but it is the basis.

I believe bzhyoyo was talking specifically about CFS3 (and applicable to all MS Flight Simulator models). I am not qualified on IL2/PF, but I suspect that could also be the case.

The only flight simulator program that I now that actually calculates flight performance taking into account the modelled mesh is X-plane.

Quote:

And: "IL2: equal dive characteristics."
???
Have you actually flown PF? I have been saved more than once from being killed online by La-5's by power-diving my Gustav.

On this note - are there published flight tables for the IL2/PF models?

I swear, you guys are going to force my to actually load CFS3 and IL2 back up, and <gasp> BUY Pacific Fighters and conduct my own tests (which by definition shall become the standard by which the sims are to be compared <insert image of me looking officious and threatening>)

Felix/FFDS

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