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ILS Landing Tutorial with Screenshots (Read 75478 times)
Mar 20th, 2005 at 7:35am

Nav   Offline
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There are always lots of questions on here about landing – either with ILS or manually.  None of us minds helping, but it leads to a lot of repetition, and it is also difficult to get over what is basically a visual exercise in words.  So I thought that I would fly a full landing approach and touchdown and take some screenshots.  

I flew it mostly on full auto, partly to allow me to concentrate on taking shots, and partly because that’s how I’d recommend people to start anyway.  Turned out that there was so much to explain that it was best to split it into three separate posts.  I hope it helps people, anyway.

INTERCEPTING THE LOCALISER BEAM AND GLIDESLOPE.

This shot shows a default 737 at 2,500 feet and 220 knots, 21 miles out of Miami Intl., inbound to Runway 9L. ILS systems only have a range of 30 nms., so I've waited until I'm well within that distance to start my landing preparations.

I’ve already:-

1. Asked ATC for landing clearance on the appropriate runway, called up the map, clicked on the airport, and noted the ILS frequency, runway direction, and airport height;
2. Entered up the ILS frequency (110.3) in NAV1 on the radio stack on the right (entered under ‘Standby’ and clicked across to ‘Active’);
3. Set the runway heading (92 degrees) on the VOR1 dial at lower left ('COURSE' on the autopilot sub-panel);
4. Pressed ‘B’ to zero the altimeter at the right pressure;
5. Pressed ‘APP’ on the autopilot, leaving the ‘Heading Hold', ‘Altitude Hold’, and 'Speed Hold' on;
6. Made sure that the GPS/NAV switch (left end of autopilot sub-panel) is set to ‘NAV’
7. For good measure, pressed ‘Alt – Aircraft – Visual Flightpath – Rectangles’ to bring up the flightpath.

The magenta markings on VOR1 show that the course to the runway is to my left; that I am closing in on it diagonally, on a course of 50 degrees; and that the glideslope (shown by the ‘arrowhead’ on the right) is ‘live’ and that I am well below it. The Visual Flightpath is already visible on the windscreen ahead.

...

In the next picture, the autopilot has turned off the ‘Heading Hold’ and is lining us up with the localiser beam. We are still comfortably below the glideslope and ‘Altitude Hold’ is still on.

...

Now the glidepath indicator (magenta arrowhead) is moving down and is past the last notch. The DME (Distance Measuring Equipment) on the VOR dial shows that we’re 10.1 miles out.  I’m reducing speed to 180 and putting down 5 degrees of flap and the gear.

...

In a moment the autopilot will turn off the ‘Altitude Hold’ and start the aeroplane down the glideslope.




« Last Edit: Apr 12th, 2011 at 12:25pm by Nav »  
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Reply #1 - Mar 20th, 2005 at 7:44am

Nav   Offline
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FINAL APPROACH – SWITCHING TO MANUAL CONTROL.

We’re now lined up and firmly established on the glideslope, at 6 miles out.  I’ve reduced to landing speed of 140 knots and put down 30 degrees of flap. I actually did that a shade prematurely, to keep it simple; the ‘proper’ method is to step the speed down gradually and add flap in stages, which saves time on the descent – you can look up the recommended speeds for each flap setting in the Learning Centre (Boeing 737 –‘Flight Notes’) if you want to get it perfect.

By the way - only 30 degrees of flap because this is actually the end of a long flight and the aeroplane is light on fuel. Fully-loaded, I'd have used 40 degrees.

One more thing to mention – the runway heading at Miami is 92 degrees, but the VOR is showing a course of 88 degrees.  That is because there is a mild crosswind, and ‘George’ is allowing for it.

...

I’ve now turned off the Visual Flightpath – blocks the view somewhat.  But you leave it on by all means, if you find it helps in your early practice. Best to mention at this point that the only FS2004 aeroplane I know that has an actual ‘Autoland’ is David Maltby’s VC10.  The default FS autopilot will NOT land an aeroplane properly – to make a really good landing you MUST disconnect the auto controls and fly the last stage of the landing manually.

I recommend turning off the auto-throttle first. I do it about 4 miles out. The important thing here is, before turning it off, check the ‘N1’ setting on the Engine Instrument Panel (in the shot it’s at 51%).  Reason is, the autopilot doesn’t move your throttle lever for you, so your manual throttle setting will NOT match the setting that the auto system has applied.  As soon as you’ve switched off, move the throttle lever a fraction, watching N1 – then make sure to get it back to the proper N1 setting asap. Stay calm, take your time, and use small movements. (If it’s any consolation, this happens in some real aeroplanes too – Boeing fit servos to their throttle levers, but Airbus don’t – so real-life pilots have the same wrong throttle setting problem to face if they switch off the autothrottle, if they’re flying Airbuses).

...

After you’ve switched the auto-throttle off, staying on the glidepath is your responsibility.  The engines develop more power at lower levels, so most commonly you’ll find that you have to make fractional power reductions to stop her getting a bit above the path late on.  Use that arrow on the VSI to keep it right. Further, the lights on the left of the runway provide a good guide; 'all white,' you're too high; 'all red,' you're too low; 'half white, half red,' you're spot on.

Finally comes switching off the autopilot – at about 3 miles out.  The quick way to do this is to press ‘Z’.  As you do it, keep a light grip on the stick, and be ready with the trim control.  The nose will probably pitch up a little – correct it with trim as far as you can, don’t panic and shove forward on the stick too hard.  The whole trick at this stage is small careful changes in trim or attitude, not wild swings – ‘don’t rock the boat’.

The other key piece of advice to offer at this stage is to 'train' your eye to look at the whole runway. Most of us, starting off, tend to stare at the threshold only; which is why, at first, it seems impossible to stay in line. Once you learn to relax, and look at the whole length of the runway, staying lined up becomes a whole lot easier.

...

« Last Edit: Nov 21st, 2010 at 11:01pm by Nav »  
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Reply #2 - Mar 20th, 2005 at 7:53am

Nav   Offline
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LINING UP, FLARING, AND LANDING.

At this point in the ‘tutorial flight’ I made a mistake! And thought that, in fairness, I’d better leave it in! I was so busy taking shots that I forgot about the wind – and so found myself drifting slightly off the runway line. In fact, since speed, trim, and attitude were all balanced, it was very easy to drop the starboard wing a fraction and work her back on line.  Which I'm doing in the picture. Note how LITTLE banking is required – and don’t forget to give her time to respond, don’t hurry things.

The thing to notice in this shot (which is one reason I left it in) is how much wider and more welcoming the runway looks close in.  You almost can't miss! Which is why you don’t have to stare grimly at it from miles away, and try to line up perfectly from ten miles out.

...

In the final moments, you should have one hand on the stick and the other on the throttle lever - and I have the two top buttons on my joystick, right under my thumb, assigned to 'trim up' and 'trim down' as well. That way you can respond quickly, in a completely coordinated way, if need be.

As you cross the threshold, cut the throttles.  From now on, you’ll need to be sure to look at the whole runway – not just the part just in front of the nose.  There’s a ‘magic moment’ in landing the real thing when your ‘top-down’ view changes, and the ‘ground perspective’ cuts in – suddenly it’s more like driving a car than flying an aeroplane.  FS models this effect very well.

One trick I should mention – the panel height in the shots may be lower than you’re used to.  I like a good view, and I tend to use ‘Shift-Enter’ to drop the panel a notch or two.  You can do the same, obviously – but don’t monkey around with it too much, try to stick to one setting once you’ve found what suits you best.

'Flaring' simply means that as the ground perspective kicks in, just before you touch down, you raise the nose (only a fraction, mind) to reduce the rate of descent. And then hold it there while the speed drops off and the aeroplane settles.

I can’t TELL you when to flare – picking the exact moment takes practice, and it varies between aeroplanes, with the larger ones taking longer to respond than the smaller ones. The important thing is not to overdo it, and start back up again; to prevent this, note the position of the runway end relative to the panel, and don’t let the panel come up too high.  Also, dart a glance at the ‘rate of descent’ gauge, try to get it up from the ‘600 feet/minute down’ it’s been at through the descent to ‘200 feet down’ or so. It’s just below the altimeter in the 737; in the photo below it’s showing about 150 feet/minute, so I see that, taking screenshots notwithstanding, I got it just about perfect for once!

Generally, about flaring, later is usually better than earlier; and once you’ve flared, hold the position, hold off, hold off…..until she settles gently, of her own accord. Gets easier with practice.

I reckon this shot shows that 'ground perspective' I mentioned quite well, as I'd hoped.  Be quite difficult to stuff it up from here, wouldn't it? Smiley

...

There you go – I live to fly another day. ’/’ for the spoiler, hold down ‘F2’ for reverse thrust ('F1' to turn it off), joystick trigger for brakes……..hope it’s been useful.

...

A couple of suggestions:-

1. Rather than starting fresh all the time, save a flight about twenty miles out, roughly where this scenario started, and use it for practice. It saves a lot of time; and you can also substitute other FS aircraft or new downloaded ones, and try out landing them in familiar surroundings.

2. You can also use a practice flight to work your way up to landing manually, instead of relying on the ILS. First turn off the auto-throttle early on, and practise handling the power yourself.  When you have that taped, turn off the autopilot early as well, and fly the approach on full manual control (remember, power to regulate the rate of descent, trim to regulate the speed). By all means leave the Visual Flight Path on at first, you'll find that it helps a lot. And, above all, relax, avoid sudden movements of the controls, and give the aeroplane time to respond.

It's a great relief once you get the hang of landing without the 'aids' - after that you can go anywhere in FS. For advice on manual landings (particularly dealing with crosswinds) see -

http://205.252.250.26/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1129643666;start=0

- or go to 'Flight Simulator 2004 FAQs', Item 12 - 'Manual Crosswind Landing Tutorial with Screenshots').

Beginners, by all means ask any questions you like.  ‘Old hands’, comments/additions welcome – but remember that I’ve tried to keep things simple and basic to help people who are just starting out. PLEASE don’t rush in recommending too many of the ‘short cuts’ those of us with more experience have developed, that will only confuse the new fliers.
« Last Edit: Nov 7th, 2010 at 9:19am by Nav »  
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Reply #3 - Mar 20th, 2005 at 8:05am

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Wow!
Great post Nav.
This one should be a sticky  Smiley
 
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Reply #4 - Mar 20th, 2005 at 8:27am

Nav   Offline
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Thanks nexus, appreciated.

Only thing is, if I'd realised before how much there was to explain, I might have thought better of it!  Smiley

What a marvellous production FS2004 is, though.  SO close to the real thing.
 
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Reply #5 - Mar 20th, 2005 at 8:36am

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Quote:
Wow!
Great post Nav.
This one should be a sticky  Smiley


'''Agreed .....nice work Nav...surely it's got to be saved somewhere for others to benefit.......Well put together....commoner.  Wink
 

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Reply #6 - Mar 20th, 2005 at 9:22am

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Gets my vote, make it a sticky, perhaps it should be called 'IFR Landing Tutorial with Screenshots' though to allow for visual, procedural and backcourse approaches.
Wink
 

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Reply #7 - Mar 20th, 2005 at 9:57am

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If it's OK with you Nav - I'll add a link this from our tutorials page......

Great tute - thanks
 

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Reply #8 - Mar 20th, 2005 at 10:14am

Nav   Offline
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By all means, pete - honoured!  Smiley
 
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Reply #9 - Mar 20th, 2005 at 10:29am

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Permit me to add my thanks for all the work you put into this. As a realworld instrument rated pilot and aircraft owner , I am always cognizant of the fact it's going back to (or not forgetting) the basics of what we are trying to achieve which keeps us (and others) healthy.

I find the users who ask these type of questions the most rarely use the word 'please' nor 'thank you' so -- once again -- thanks for all the work you put into this; as noted, it will be of great help to me and other simmers.

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Reply #10 - Mar 21st, 2005 at 4:36am

Nav   Offline
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Thanks, wji - I'd be surprised, though, if I could teach someone with an instrument rating anything. I never got that far, I got married instead, which was the end of flying lessons!

You're right in what you say. However much flying you've done, every flight, and especially every landing, is a new 'adventure'.
 
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Reply #11 - Mar 21st, 2005 at 9:07am

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Very nice job!!
I have also added it t the FS2004 FAQ's!

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Reply #12 - Mar 21st, 2005 at 5:12pm

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good thread, you nearly mucked up your landing though!  Tongue

 

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Reply #13 - Mar 21st, 2005 at 11:38pm

Nav   Offline
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Thanks Dave, good idea.  It does seem to be helping some - getting quite a few views, and just maybe there are already fewer "I keep crashing, how do I land?" threads, leaving time and room for more varied topics Smiley I'll keep an eye on it and update it if need be.

willg, you are the first new flyer to come on here.  I'd be interested in your feedback? Anything that wasn't clear, anything I can add, any other problems I could cover?

As to the mistake, as you probably gathered, I paused the flight at stages, and made notes. After the last pause, I took too long to re-orientate myself. I could of course have re-flown the landing and got it right, but on reflection I left it in - it gave me the opportunity to explain that, even if you DO stuff up the approach slightly, you can usually retrieve things easily enough, so long as you keep your head and avoid sudden sharp movements of the controls.
 
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Reply #14 - Mar 22nd, 2005 at 8:45am

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ya nav, it was quite a helpful guide. I'm new to the forums but im not a total noob, I regularly go flying in Pipers (dont know the make) from Brize, and play on fs a lot.

i understand pretty much every part of fs and my only difficulties were trying to stay on the centre line when landing, and getting the rate of descent rate, i've pretty much mastered that so for the time being their isnt really anything im having major problems with.

im okay with the physics side of it too (i.e how to counteract wind, working out the right for speed f or certain weights etc), but i could do with some help on jet take off, as i always seem to get the nose up with the plane now climbing at all, jsut flying along the ground with the nose up for ages.

I understood your guide, its fairly simple, but you could have expanded on bits and pieces and described why and exactly what you were doing, so a total noob would be able to perfect their landings.



 

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Reply #15 - Mar 22nd, 2005 at 8:47am

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after reading my last post I seem to come over a little big headed and unappreciative of your guide, I thought id just say that this isnt the case and that I do appreciate your guide, guides/tutorials like that really are invaluable to begginers or generally anyone in the FS world.
 

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Reply #16 - Mar 22nd, 2005 at 8:59am
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Hey! Thats great nav! Wonderful work! Smiley
I'm sure new-comers will appreciate this!! Smiley
 
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Reply #17 - Mar 22nd, 2005 at 9:21am

Nav   Offline
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Cheers R/C Ben!  Smiley

Apologies are due from me, willg - I'd got the impression from our conversations on landings on other threads that you were a bit 'newer' than that.  Smiley

I really wouldn't be too bothered about landing exactly on the centre-line - anywhere (on the runway) suits me!  And as the mistake in the tute shows, a gentle bank, giving the aeroplane time to respond, will usually get you out of trouble anyway.

As to:-

Quote:
i could do with some help on jet take off, as i always seem to get the nose up with the plane now climbing at all, jsut flying along the ground with the nose up for ages.


The answer is 'the need for speed'.  You're just getting the nose too high too early, before the aeroplane has the airspeed/wing lift to climb, so it's using all the available power just to stay in the air; what they used to call 'hanging on the prop'.

Watch the VSI and the ASI; keep straight, and keep the angle of climb at no more than say 15 degrees, until the speed reaches at least 180-200, the gear is retracted, and you've reduced to one notch of flap. After that she'll go up like a lift!  Smiley
 
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Reply #18 - Mar 22nd, 2005 at 10:25am

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That's what I need so desperately severla months ago! Cry Well it will sure benefit others and I learnt one thing which I thought I was nuts on and that is I come in too low.

Just one thing though -  I am surprised you didn't have auto-break on.

Great job and I'm sure that will be useful for many. 8)
 

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Reply #19 - Mar 22nd, 2005 at 11:37am

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Quote:
Just one thing though -  I am surprised you didn't have auto-break on.


Is that where the air-stewardesses automatically come to the cockpit with refreshments? Or do you mean auto-brake? Wink he he

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Reply #20 - Mar 22nd, 2005 at 1:14pm

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ya Nav i know all that, its common sense, ive taken off at 200 knots before just to see if would go up any better but it still just keeps movin along the ground with the nose up

i normally rotate at 160 knots, with a small amount of trim and flaps at one notch.
 

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Reply #21 - Mar 22nd, 2005 at 1:26pm

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Quote:
Is that where the air-stewardesses automatically come to the cockpit with refreshments? Or do you mean auto-brake? Wink he he

John



Of course! He needs something to give him the energy to pull the brake levers! Wink Grin
Unless it is of course an autopilot for crashing.... Shocked mind you I don't think most of us need an auto-feature to do that. Wink
 

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Reply #22 - Mar 22nd, 2005 at 3:07pm

willg   Offline
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by the way ive sorted my taking off problem now, i made the rather nooby error of accidentally hitting / without realising  Embarrassed
 

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Reply #23 - Mar 22nd, 2005 at 11:18pm

Nav   Offline
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Hi Saitek!

Didn't cover auto-brake because I have to admit that I've only used it a couple of times, and find that it's a unnecessary hassle.

I'm happy enough just using '/' for spoilers, 'F2' for reverse thrust, and the joystick trigger for brakes - even on short runways.  Less 'sorting out' to do later when you're down to taxiing speed.

Besides - I had to stop somewhere!  Smiley
 
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Reply #24 - Mar 22nd, 2005 at 11:24pm

Nav   Offline
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willg, flap (or the lack of it) is your problem then.

Not 'one notch' for takeoff - 5 degrees. Three notches on the 737, two notches on the 747 and Triple Seven.

Please do yourself a favour - go to the Learning Centre Index, click on 'B' for Boeing, and look up the Flight Notes for any aeroplane you are planning to fly. All the settings and speeds are in there, for 'Takeoff', 'Climb', 'Cruise' etc. Save you a lot of time - at the moment you seem always to be 'learning the hard way'.
 
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Reply #25 - Mar 23rd, 2005 at 2:29am

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Quote:
........at the moment you seem always to be 'learning the hard way'.


......lol.....good point, but one of the BIG problems Nav, IMHO, is that most simmers, old and new, think that going into the Learning Centre IS doing it the hard way.......hard to know how to change that attitude....commoner Wink
 

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Reply #26 - Mar 28th, 2005 at 4:58am

Nav   Offline
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I've revised this to explain the initial phase of lining up with the localiser, which still seems to attract a lot of 'Help!' threads.  Smiley

Also redone the screenshots to make them clearer - the first lot had got thoroughly 'chewed up' - and added a few more tips.

Any feedback on things that still aren't clear, or other FS subjects that people would like me to try to cover, would be welcome.
 
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Reply #27 - Mar 28th, 2005 at 5:34am

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its okay I fully understand approaches now, thanks Nav and everyone else who's helped me  Smiley Smiley

I've made a little diagram about ILS approaches too.

...
 

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Reply #28 - Mar 28th, 2005 at 9:55am

Nav   Offline
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That diagram is GREAT, willg. Guess that, now you've started drawing things out and writing them down, you're a fellow addict now.  Smiley You'll be READING stuff next...  Smiley

There's an old flying school joke you may not have encountered yet. Someone will ask you why they make you read an eye-chart before they give you a licence. You'll say, of course, that it's because they need to be sure that you can see clearly, for 'safety', like.

"Not so," they'll say. "It's 'cos they want to be sure that you can read all the laws and regulations and prohibitions and 'pilot's notes' and complicated approach charts they're going to throw at you by the truckload for the rest of your natural bloody life........"

Glad I thought of trying screenies - judging by the number of views this thread is getting, they seem to work a bit. It's often quite difficult to explain to people how to fly, just in words.

Imagine that you were trying to write down instructions on how to ride a bike - including how to turn. And then someone writes back and says, "I think I understand. But about turning - do I move the handlebars first, or lean over first?"

Good for you, anyway, glad you're getting it taped. The next step is to turn off the auto-controls earlier and earlier, until you can fly the whole approach VFR. Then you can go anywhere, whether or not the airports have ILS.  
« Last Edit: Mar 28th, 2005 at 9:38pm by Nav »  
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Reply #29 - May 6th, 2005 at 11:31am

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Wow this stuff is Great!  8)
nice job Nav Smiley
Cheers Theis
 

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Reply #30 - May 8th, 2005 at 6:44am

Nav   Offline
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Pleasure, Theis, glad you liked it!

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Reply #31 - May 8th, 2005 at 9:28am

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I personaly dont think that the red square things aren mutch of help, because you pay more atention on lining up with them than just landing the damn thing. Lips Sealed
 
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Reply #32 - May 9th, 2005 at 1:40pm

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Great tutorial. Helped me a lot. Thanks!  Smiley
 

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Reply #33 - May 12th, 2005 at 10:51pm

Nav   Offline
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Agree that it's much more fun without the Visual Flight Path, marick - but of course the thread was aimed more at people who are starting out with FS, the 'Path' can be a great help to them.

Cheers clipper, pleasure! Smiley
 
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Reply #34 - Jun 21st, 2005 at 1:58pm

pilotjj1   Offline
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How about a generic landing procedure that can be applied to any aircraft?
 
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Reply #35 - Jun 25th, 2005 at 4:40pm

Ex-RoNiN   Offline
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Well smack my arse and call me Jody - that's one amazing tutorial mate Shocked Cheesy

Cheers for that, I'll try that out in a minute!
 
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Reply #36 - Jun 27th, 2005 at 8:10am

Nav   Offline
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Quote:
How about a generic landing procedure that can be applied to any aircraft?


I think that would be just about impossible, pilotjj1 - you'd drown in footnotes!

On the other hand, the principles don't vary, whatever you're landing. The speeds can be different, but that is what the Flight Notes in the FS Learning Centre are for. The instrument layouts differ too, but that is only a matter of practice.

My recommendation to anyone trying new aeroplanes is to have a practice landing approach saved. Fire it up and try the new one out on it - you'll soon get the hang of it by trial and error. Using an approach that you're already familiar with helps a lot, by cutting out most of the variables.

Ex-RoNiN, glad you liked it - hope the trial run went OK! Smiley
 
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Reply #37 - Jul 1st, 2005 at 1:18am

chrisco17   Offline
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Fantastic tutorial Nav.
Not often do you see the author leave in a mistake that was made.
This is a very good thing, it shows what to do when an error occurs. Not alway the "Perfect" situation. We can learn from your mistake.
Makes me think that there should be a tutorial for "what to do if..."
Thank you very much for your time and effort Nav.
Chrisco  Smiley
 

... &&Scratch built PC: 2.8G P4HT, 250G 7200RPM Hard drive, 1024 RAM ,GForce FX 5200 128,&&TrackIR3 Pro with Vector 6DOF Expansion&&Voice Buddy, AudioFX Headset&&Saitek x52 HOTAS&&
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Reply #38 - Jul 8th, 2005 at 9:52am

TwoWalks   Offline
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Came on today and found this great tutorial.  I sim fly light aircraft, now thanks to this tutorial I am going to have to give a Heavy a try. 

Thanks for all the time and effort, very very helpful.
 
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Reply #39 - Aug 24th, 2005 at 7:26am

eudoniga   Offline
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Happy landings and always
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Maybe a little late, but let me add my compliments to the author ...
And a proposal, too.
Given the chances that even newbies are guided by ATC, or pick up by themselves, runways that aren't fully ILS equipped, that is they only provide LOC or BC approach, a second step for the landing tutorial would be that of covering this kind of approaches ... don't you think ?
Happy landings and always three greens from Italy !!!
Eugenio
 
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Reply #40 - Aug 24th, 2005 at 9:56am

Staiduk   Offline
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Great tute, Nav! Perfect for newer pilots. Smiley

You got me thinking about doing my own now. One of the areas I do well in is VFR navigation without electronic aids. Think it'd be a good idea if I might come up with something similar for that perhaps?

Cheers!
 

...
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Reply #41 - Aug 27th, 2005 at 8:11am

Nav   Offline
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Thanks for the kind words, guys, glad you liked it.

eudoniga, good point. I've added a couple of suggestions to the last part of the tute. By saving a practice flight, and then switching off the autothrottle and autopilot at earlier and earlier stages, people can in fact teach themselves to land manually from the same sort of situation. Surprising how quickly it 'comes right' after a few tries - particularly if they keep the Visual Flight Path on at first, and also maybe substitute a lighter, more 'forgiving' aeroplane like the Cessna or the Mooney.

I've been thinking of doing another tute anyway - this one on manual crosswind landings. Haven't got the screenshots right yet, though, it's quite difficult to fly manually and take shots at the same time!

Staiduk, sure, it would help a lot of people. One thought though; maybe include the basics of flight-planning and VOR tracking as well, and how to set 'GPS Hold'? The 'Learning Centre' isn't awfully helpful in those areas, a few pictures could be a lot clearer than all those words?
« Last Edit: Aug 30th, 2005 at 3:25am by Nav »  
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Reply #42 - Aug 29th, 2005 at 4:11am

Staiduk   Offline
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Will do, Nav - but VOR and DR navigation should really be under seperate tutes unless the mods allow us to go over the posting limit. Grin

I'll do the DR one first; we'll se how it turns out. Grin

Great job again - cheers!
 

...
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Reply #43 - Aug 29th, 2005 at 4:17am

eudoniga   Offline
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Well done, Nav.

And - sure enough - it's damn hard to accomplish all that tasks when you're flying alone that you start to desire someone helping you from the nearby seat ...

For those who fly airliners, I can - from my own experience - suggest using a couple addons that are really worth the money: Aerosoft's FlightDeck Companion, which has a virtual co-pilot feature, and E-Dimensional's Voice Buddy, which executes verbal commands.

THat way you can concentrate on landing and have (in the first case) or call (in the second case) someone who helps you doing all things ...

With Voice Buddy, you could even pick up a vocal command  to execute a screen shot every time you call it !

Cool, eh ?

Wink

Eudoniga.
 
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Reply #44 - Nov 6th, 2005 at 5:21pm

simonmd   Offline
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Thanks AGAIN for that superb tutorial. I've been flying sims for over 10 years and only now think I fully understand!
 

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Reply #45 - Nov 6th, 2005 at 6:05pm

TNHunter   Offline
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WOW, Nav, I want to say thank you so much.

I am self taught flight simmer, I only paid enough attention in the "flying lessons" on FS to learn how to do basic controls. I practiced in the small craft, and worked my way up to the "big dawgs" by trial and error.

I learned to land the biggest stock plane manually, and I taught myself how, it was ugly and awkward, but I could get it on the ground in the center of the runway. About 6 months ago, I got serious and started trying to learn to really fly like a professional.

I went back to the Cessnas, and started learning basic skills again. However, once you can put a huge aircraft down without slamming it, a little Cessna is an easy task.

This tutorial gave me confident enough to step up to the large Commercial jets, and leave the small private jets for a few minutes.

I fired up FS, got in the 747-400, set a course between Nashville and Memphis and started my flight.

I made it a point to forget what I knew, and try it your way.

I must say, that for every awful landing I have ever made, the one properly completed landing made me feel like I actually knew what I was doing.

I am going to try and use this technique for as many planes as I can, as I am sure it will step up my game 10X.

Thanks so much, and I hope that you will write many more tutorials, so that those of us who are not the best yet can become great.

TNH.
 

SouthernAir&&&&FS9 (modified)&&Cyborg Graphite LX Joystick.&&HP Intel. 248 RAM.&&1400+ hours in the sim.
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Reply #46 - Nov 7th, 2005 at 8:49pm

Nav   Offline
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Thanks for the kind comments, simonnd, TNHUnter, much appreciated. I originally hit on the idea of using screenshots mainly because they made it a lot easier to explain how to set the various instruments. But it's clear that, happily, the pictures also give newer flyers a mind's eye picture of what an orthodox landing approach should 'look like'; which is probably half the battle. 

Glad you considered going back to the lessons, TNHunter. Personally I would never recommend ploughing through all of them (IMO the earlier ones are well done, the later ones less so) but they are still a useful resource. Worth trying 'Airline Transport Pilot, Lesson 1 - Jet Checkout', for instance, to learn more about orthodox takeoff and landing procedures.

I still find the 'ready-made' FS9 scenarios and historical flights fun for a change, too. 'Aerial Chauffeur' starts easy and builds up to quite difficult situations; 'European Airline Pilot' does much the same; and 'Reeve Aleutian Airlines' will stretch your flying and navigation skills to the limit, even if you substitute a more modern aeroplane for the DC3 Dakota, which you're allowed to do.
 
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Reply #47 - Nov 12th, 2005 at 5:33am

webbyboy   Offline
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Hello,

Your guide is great but i still have some problem aligning with the glideslope, the plane will just go left and right, even i start from 15nm away, it just can't get aligned properly and it turning left and right, until 3nm away i set to manual and i have to align myself
 
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Reply #48 - Nov 12th, 2005 at 9:14am

Nav   Offline
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Hi webbyboy, welcome to Simviation!

The most probable solution is that you don't need one! Radio beams are narrow at source but widen at distance, and the air is a fluid medium; so any aeroplane will take its time lining up, particularly when it's a long way out (like 15 miles). If you look at the first few screenshots in the tute, you'll see that my 737 was by no means completely lined up at first. So first of all be patient, let the aeroplane get closer, and you'll probably find that it lines up perfectly closer in when the beam has narrowed down.

If that doesn't solve the problem, chances are that you're getting one or other of the settings wrong - too much flap, not enough power, not enough speed, or whatever - and the aeroplane is 'toppling' because it is getting close to stalling speed. Whichever aircraft you're flying, look it up in the Learning Centre Index (under its name, e.g. 'Boeing 737' is under 'B'), read the Flight Notes, and make sure that you are getting all the settings right.

If none of that works, glad to help further - but please say which aeroplane you're flying, whether there's any wind, what approach speeds and flap settings you're using, etc.; it'll make a 'diagnosis' easier. Smiley
 
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Reply #49 - Mar 27th, 2006 at 9:34am
SysFail   Ex Member

 
GREAT tutorial!!!

Thanks for all that hard work...keeps us newbies informed  Grin

If anybody can tell me how you get those visual flight path boxes to show your glidepath I would REALLY appreciate it.  I read the tutorial about 5 times and I think it has something to do with the nav1 setting maybe? 

I just want to be able to take off from KIND and not have a destination in mind, but then dial one up and land anywhere I want with the help of those boxes.  I can take off in any plane out there it seems, but I cannot for the life of me figure out how to find the runway and get lined up to land.

THanks!
SysFail


P. S. I know how to physically turn on the visual flight path by hitting alt and selecting it...
 
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Reply #50 - Mar 27th, 2006 at 12:31pm

TSC.   Offline
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Hi SysFail,

That glidepath will only show up on the GPS if the runway has ILS.

You don't need the glidepath on the GPS to know which way the runway is heading. You just need to know the runway numbers (You can find that out by contacting ATC or looking on your map).

The runway numbers are a rough guide to runway direction - you just add a '0' to the runway number E.G: Runway 1 = approx 10 degree's, Runway 18 = 180 approx 180 degree's.

Although if you want to get specific, the heading of the runway may not exactly match it's number.

E.G:
Runway 27 (for 270 degree's) can have a heading anywhere between 265 degree's & 275 degree's.

The heading for each runway number can be off by as much as 5 degrees either way.

If you want to know the heading or the runways available at any airport in FS9, just go into the map (zoom in) & click on the airport required:
...

Cheers,

TSC.
 

...

'Only two things are infinite.......The Universe and Human stupidity........and I'm not too sure about the Universe' - Einstein
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Reply #51 - Mar 27th, 2006 at 12:41pm
SysFail   Ex Member

 
That was the missing link....

So I tune to the ILS freq found on the map and I will get my "little red hoops" I so desperately need at this point in my flying career LOL
Cant wait to get out of work here and go home and try it out...

Thanks again!!!

 
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Reply #52 - Mar 27th, 2006 at 12:52pm

TSC.   Offline
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Hi SysFail,

Tuning the ILS freq into the Nav1 radio will not give you the 'little red hoops'. But to be honest, if you know how to use the VASI lights, you may find it just as easy to rely on them. Once you know the runway heading in advance (from the map), you will find it much easier to plan & execute your landings without the help of the 'hoops'.

Cheers,

TSC.
 

...

'Only two things are infinite.......The Universe and Human stupidity........and I'm not too sure about the Universe' - Einstein
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Reply #53 - Mar 27th, 2006 at 1:34pm
SysFail   Ex Member

 
well crap...
so how DO i get the red hooops??

I think I will be ok now that I know where the runways are ( I found a cool website with airport diagrams so I can have them all printed out ahead of time now), but I still wonder where the hoops come from??



 
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Reply #54 - Mar 27th, 2006 at 1:57pm

TSC.   Offline
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Quote:
well crap...
so how DO i get the red hooops??

Just like you said:
Quote:
P. S. I know how to physically turn on the visual flight path by hitting alt and selecting it...

I think your getting the 'hoops' & 'ILS' a bit mixed up - the 'hoops' have absolutely nothing to do with ILS approaches - they are just a learning aid put into FS9 by Microsoft. Nav only used them in his tutorial to let people see where the glideslope was in relation to the plane.

You can use the 'hoops' at any airport, but ILS can only be used at airports that have ILS systems.

Cheers,

TSC.
 

...

'Only two things are infinite.......The Universe and Human stupidity........and I'm not too sure about the Universe' - Einstein
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Reply #55 - Mar 27th, 2006 at 2:09pm

commoner   Offline
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Quote:
...
so how DO i get the red hooops??







...from the sim.........click the Aircraft menu and then choose Visual Flight path. Check the Show Visual Flight Path box and set up the other parameters....altitude etc.....

Tune the Nav 1 Radio to the ILS frequency of the runway and you should see the "Highway in the Sky" in line with the runway at the altitude you set..............commoner Wink

...
 

..."In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is."
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Reply #56 - Mar 27th, 2006 at 2:32pm

TSC.   Offline
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Ahh - confusion sorted, thanks Commoner. I've never used the 'hoops' as an aid so I just assumed that M$ had plonked them in for all airports.

Cheers,

TSC.
 

...

'Only two things are infinite.......The Universe and Human stupidity........and I'm not too sure about the Universe' - Einstein
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Reply #57 - Mar 28th, 2006 at 2:47am

eudoniga   Offline
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Happy landings and always
three greens !!!

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Does anyone of you know about tutorials regarding the so called "non precision" approaches, those performed with the aid of simple VORs and NDBs ?

Happy flying,

Eugenio.
 
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Reply #58 - Mar 28th, 2006 at 7:32am

vololiberista   Offline
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Vieni in Italia

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I'll post a tutorial in the next few days regarding non precision approaches and also one for noise abatement techniques.
Vololiberista
 

Andiamo in Italia&&...
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Reply #59 - Mar 28th, 2006 at 12:23pm

TSC.   Offline
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Quote:
and also one for noise abatement techniques.

Excellent - i'll post it on a lampost at the Mcdonalds Drive-Thru for the local boy racers to decipher.

Grin

TSC.
 

...

'Only two things are infinite.......The Universe and Human stupidity........and I'm not too sure about the Universe' - Einstein
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Reply #60 - Mar 28th, 2006 at 2:19pm

Red_Kite   Offline
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Interesting tutorial Nav. I shall study it when I've got a few spare hours!  Grin

I guess I'm a VFR simmer at heart and enjoy flying (and landing) everything I can find from the seat of my pants! There was a time that I thought I would never be able to land a plane without crashing it. This was back in the days of Flight Unlimited 2 + 3 if anyone ever remembers them. I’ve always been too lazy or just too uninterested in learning all this ILS stuff to be bothered TBH and much preferred to crash and learn!

The thrill I had when I put my first Cessna down without breaking the undercarriage and almost on the runway was enormous! But only because I had learned it the hard way and I did it all by myself - No ILS, No tutorials or Red boxes in the sky!

I tried the red boxes in the sky several times in FS9 and I found them harder than just using my own judgement! I tended to concentrate too much on trying to keep within the boxes and was not concentrating on the real glide slope, which is my line of sight to the runway.

Through my own stubbornness to not want to learn tutorials or ILS or anything else which takes away the fun of hands on flying, I simply have no idea how to use ILS or IFR, Flight plans etc. For the most part I turn off ATC stick my Cyborg 3D Gold joystick in front of me and go VFR flying! I like to leave AI aircraft on though as it’s nice not to be alone, but I never bother to request clearance to land anywhere! A couple of times I’ve landed over the top of other aircraft about to take off! …Sod them; they shouldn’t have been there! This is my sky and my airport!  Tongue However, there is now no aeroplane big or small in the FS9 world that I can't take off and land safely using VFR in all (especially my latest passion) challenging weather!

I love putting those big birds down especially in strong xwinds it's just so much fun. But I suppose I should really learn how to use ILS since in the real world IFR is the only way to bring any bird down when the weather closes in and visibility is hopeless. The problem is that this is a sim and all I need to do is adjust the weather so I can see again!  Grin

 
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Reply #61 - Mar 28th, 2006 at 3:50pm

vololiberista   Offline
Colonel
Vieni in Italia

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Quote:
I'll post a tutorial in the next few days regarding non precision approaches and also one for noise abatement techniques.
Vololiberista


Rather than spend a lot of time writing and translating from my pilots manuals and my own experience i came across this site which I will also post as a separate thread. It is very thorough so you can all land safely and make room on your hard drives for more aircraft by deleting 'crash effects!!!!'

http://www.navfltsm.addr.com/index.htm

PS I will do Noise Abatement in the next couple of days
Vololiberista

 

Andiamo in Italia&&...
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Reply #62 - Mar 29th, 2006 at 7:34am

Nav   Offline
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Red_Kite, I did the tutorial mainly because, not long ago, half the threads on here were of the 'I keep Crashing? How do I land?" variety. Therefore it's aimed squarely at beginners. And it seems to have achieved it's object, because there are a lot fewer such threads now.

I think everyone's objective should be first and foremost to ENJOY FS. So as long as you're happy just flying VFR and making your own weather, fine.

For myself, I found that after a bit, I got bored with that and began specialising in more challenging long-distance trips involving several legs and landing at all sorts of airports. I also found that using 'real weather' added interest because, whatever it serves up, you just have to deal with it somehow.

If you should ever get bored and feel the need of a new challenge, I recommend that you try the ready-made FS9 'Aerial Chauffeur' scenario. You don't have to use the default Cessna, you can substitute any aeroplane you like. Whoever set it up made sure that the weather is poor to start with, and gets worse as you go along; so that the conditions get steadily more challenging, trip by trip. I'll guarantee that if you DO try it, you'll find yourself using every nav-aid on the aeroplane before you've finished!
 
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Reply #63 - Mar 29th, 2006 at 9:23am
SysFail   Ex Member

 
I agree, the goal here is to just enjoy playing.

I don't know how everyone else plays, but I do "realtime rules"... If i leave the plane parked in Orlando Florida, and I want to fly to Bangor Maine, I have to make the flight.  Where ever the plane lands, is where it is when i start back up. NO CHEATING!!! lol
If I am in mid-flight and have to leave the game, I will dial in the nearest airport and land.

These tutorials have been invaluable to me as a new person to the game.  The red hoops help me, for now, learn, but continue to play and have fun without a ton of frustration kicking in because I crash everytime I land.
The more I land the better I get...red hoops or not..and soon I will not even need them anymore.
( I sight landed, on the hidden space shuttle runway in FL, by sight last night without hoops...due to no ILS there...took me 3 tries but I got it!!)


On a side note...does anybody know where I can get a hardcopy map of the USA with all of the airports on it and the ILS frequencies etc?  I bought a really nice spiral bound atlas last night to help me plan my trips, but thought maybe there was one with all the airports marked etc?



 
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Reply #64 - Jun 16th, 2006 at 5:19pm
lar007   Ex Member

 
Hi Nav,

Thank you very much for taking the time out for us newbies and posting this guide for ILS approaches.

I'm a real newbie but I really hope you can help me...

However, I could cry, I really could.  I've followed this as best as I can yet my stupid plane(s) auto pilot don't align to the glide scope at the right time.  I've tried must be 70 times... Perhaps I'm just thick but here's what I do...

Set a flight plan from Shoreham to Gatwick (UK)

Click on the map and select gatwick and note the ILS freq (110.900) and the ILS heading (261) runway 26L.

Set the OBS on the VOR to 261 and select 110.900 on the radio stack and click to active (Hover the mouse over and it says 110.900 on active).

Click on the flight path indicator on the options menu.

Take off and reach 2000ft and click auto pilot then HDG, APP and ALT...  My plane then aligns to the glide scope path of the run way straight away (I seem to be parallel to the run way immediately even though I'm 18 miles away!).

Nav, I know I'm screwing up somewhere, but I don't know where!  Please help Sad

(P.S. Just to give you a giggle, I'm struggling to do this in a Cessna!)
 
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Reply #65 - Jun 16th, 2006 at 5:45pm

vololiberista   Offline
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Vieni in Italia

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Lining up to the localiser at about 18nm out isn't bad. Once that's done you need to watch the ils gauge closely with an occasional glimpse at the real rwy. Watch the glide slope indicator (horizontal bar) and as it starts to move down switch the AP button to 'appr' You must do this before the glide slope indicator goes past the centreline otherwise the AP won't capture the glideslope.
In real life landing a Cessna at Gatwick would be difficult as you would have to be on full throttle and with a very nose down attitude (this is to keep one's speed up) as there are somewhat larger boys chasing you down the slope. I did it for real many years ago in a TB10. Flying down the GS at full throttle and very nose down!! A bit scarty to say the least!!!
Vololiberista
 

Andiamo in Italia&&...
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Reply #66 - Jun 16th, 2006 at 7:08pm
lar007   Ex Member

 
Thank you vololiberista!  I set the auto pilot 'App' as soon as I've taken off  Embarrassed Going by your post, that's probably premature, am I right?
 
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Reply #67 - Jun 17th, 2006 at 12:44am

Nav   Offline
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Glad you liked it, lar007.

Looks like your problem may have to do with the 'back-bearing'. An ILS system has a 'back-echo' in the opposite direction too, which will line you up with the runway, but NOT provide any glideslope.

A runway heading of 261 degrees means that you should line up to land from a bit north of east - coming from Shoreham, the ILS system may be lining you up to land from the west instead (that is, lining you up with Runway 8, the other, western, end of the runway you want). That would explain why you're not getting the glideslope.

The answer is NOT to set up the ILS from the start. Just fly towards the airport at first. Once you're within 30 miles, call up Gatwick Tower and ask for a 'full stop landing.' They'll tell you which runway to use; once you know that, set up the ILS and fly a course which brings you in roughly lined up with the designated runway; preferably at a slight angle, say 30 degrees. Sounds complicated, but if you're in any doubt pause the game and sketch things out on a piece of paper so you get the angles right.

Once the NAV1 dial 'lights up' and shows the arrow display and the glideslope indicator (see the first screenshot in the tute) everything should be OK.

Only thing is, as far as I know the Cessna only has cross-hairs on a dial, not the fancy NAV gauges they have nowadays - but the system works the same way, you'll soon get the hang of it.
 
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Reply #68 - Jun 17th, 2006 at 2:17am

vololiberista   Offline
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Vieni in Italia

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Quote:
Thank you vololiberista!  I set the auto pilot 'App' as soon as I've taken off  Embarrassed Going by your post, that's probably premature, am I right?


Yes it's premature because ILS frequencies are not unique to individual airports.  (that's one of the reasons one still has to check the audible morse ident!!!).

The glide slope is close to 3deg. which at a distance of 10nm would be intercepted at a height(NB not altitude!!) of 3000ft. The FS9 ATC usually vector you to intercept the localiser between 14-18nm So calculate in your mind where the glide slope would be in relation to the intercept height you have been given. But don't select the 'appr' button until the gauge has found the glide slope. I always wait until I see it move down as a confirmation.

When you fly something "larger" than a Cessna then your airspeed also becomes a factor so get into the habit of arriving on the localiser at no more than 180kts ias.
Buon volo.
Vololiberista
 

Andiamo in Italia&&...
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Reply #69 - Jun 19th, 2006 at 4:23pm
lar007   Ex Member

 
OMG! Thank you Nav & vololiberista!!!!

I've got it at last!!!  I've just landed at EGLC & EGKK several times in a Learjet!!  In a learjet!!!!  No more Cessna!  Damn, I love flying!

Thank you both v.v.much!
 
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Reply #70 - Jul 5th, 2006 at 4:11am

Ben R   Offline
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Audere Est Facere
ipswich

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i do not know how to land using ILS..i tried using this guide like 10 times..still cant get the hang of it..please email me or something on how to land right.. Cry
 

...
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Reply #71 - Jul 5th, 2006 at 7:29am

vololiberista   Offline
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Vieni in Italia

Posts: 1042
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Quote:
i do not know how to land using ILS..i tried using this guide like 10 times..still cant get the hang of it..please email me or something on how to land right.. Cry


Here's what you do. First in order to aid your concentration and learning don't use the ATC facility (ie fly in silence)
Use this approach plate for rwy 27L at London Heathrow.
...
Set up a flight plan from CDG Paris to Heathrow and be sure to include the VOR 'BIG' that is Biggin Hill
Set your cruise altitude to FL020
Start your descent to FL70 as you leave the French coast
As you start your descent reduce your speed to 300 IAS
As you approach FL010 reduce your speed to 250 IAS
You should be at FL70 sometime before you reach Biggin
By 12DME before Biggin slow down to 210 IAS

During your descent set up your COM1 to 109.5
and turn your OBS knob to 275 heading
(now you have set up your AP to capture the ILS for rwy 27L)
Before you reach Biggin select HDG on your AP (after you have aligned the heading bug to the direction you are actually flying -- NB this isn't the OBS)

Ok so now we are ready to fly the approach

At the facility (when you get to Biggin) turn the a/c onto a heading of 335.

Speed back to 180 IAS
Descend to an altitude of 2,500ft
Don't let the speed run away so you will need to use slats, first stage flaps and probably spoilers as well.

Once the a/c is established onto the heading of 335 change the AP to NAV (making sure that the GPS light or switch is off)

The AP will now capture the localiser
As the a/c turns onto the heading of 275 speed back to 170 IAS, gear down, flaps2

Now watch carefully for the glideslope indicator (if you are using a glass cockpit it will be an arrowhead pointer at the side of your artificial horizon.

As it starts to move down change your AP from NAV to APR
or APP = Approach.
Now the AP will capture the glideslope
At 4DME slow down to 140 IAS, Full flaps, Set auto spoiler and auto brakes (if you have them)

Some a/c will fly all the way down to land but if they are not equiped with autoland then disengage the AP at 100ft
and land manually.
Remember that a good landing is one you walk away from. (NOT stagger away from!!!!)
Vololiberista


 

Andiamo in Italia&&...
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Reply #72 - Jul 5th, 2006 at 8:19am

Nav   Offline
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Welcome to Simviation, ranger0125. Easier to help you if you give us a bit more information.

What are you flying? Have you done some of the lessons to learn basic flying? If you've been following the tute, what exactly goes wrong, and when?
 
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Reply #73 - Jul 5th, 2006 at 7:35pm

Ben R   Offline
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no problem..thanks too..

i am flying a 777-200er..and i tried reading the lesson..but i dont understand.. Sad
 

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Reply #74 - Jul 5th, 2006 at 7:59pm

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i just dont understand it man.. Sad
 

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Reply #75 - Jul 5th, 2006 at 8:59pm
Jakemaster   Ex Member

 
Simply put, you look up the ILS frequency on the map.  Open your radiostack and tune NAV1 to that frequency.  Turn on the AP to approach mode, and it will fly the ILS
 
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Reply #76 - Jul 5th, 2006 at 9:35pm

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vololiberista! nav! thank you ever so much!!!!! i just did it!!!!! w000t!!!!!! i used your table and everything volo! and nav..i didnt know where some intruments was..i looked at ur screenies..thank you sooooooo much!!


flying is sooooo much fun! Grin



 

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Reply #77 - Jul 6th, 2006 at 12:00am

Ben R   Offline
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also volo..where'd ya get that diagram for heathrow? i would like to start going to more place than heathrow =)
 

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Reply #78 - Jul 6th, 2006 at 1:43am

vololiberista   Offline
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Quote:
also volo..where'd ya get that diagram for heathrow? i would like to start going to more place than heathrow =)


That approach plate is my own one.. I have the full set of SIDS STARS parking, airport charts etc etc.
For other airports one can easily find most on the net.  Quite a lot of sim sites have a facility to download them  Simrader, Vatsim and Google of course. Frequently if you apgrade scenery for a particular airport and region charts will be included in the download.  If you fly in Italy then the ISD Project is stunning.
Boun voli,
Vololiberista
 

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Reply #79 - Jul 6th, 2006 at 1:46am

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cool man..it was great man..love flying now =)
 

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Reply #80 - Jul 7th, 2006 at 7:56am

alert5   Offline
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Hiya Nav,

Great tutorial, almost mastered ILS landings except I find the approach speed difficult to control (more practise, that's all!)

Just a quick question, I noticed that the APP and HDG are set early on in your tute.  Could this be done soon after departure, and would the AP line up at the correct point to intercept the glidescope despite the HDG setting?  If for example, I've got the HDG set to fly directly over the destination airport and runway, would the AP work out by using the APP heading that it'd have to approach the HDG at a different angle to intercept the ILS glidescope at the right alt and speed?
 

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Reply #81 - Jul 7th, 2006 at 8:24am

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Alert, that wont cut it.
You need to intercept the LLZ at least 7-8nm out, level flight.

Think the ILS as a standard VOR but with only 2 radials (front and backcourse), your flight path has to cross the front course or else the signal wont be picked up by the AP.

You have to guide the aircraft to the proper intercept angle, and then the AP is able to track the LLZ.

Mods, what do you think of making this thread a sticky?
Seems like every week we get posters asking about ILS  Smiley
 
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Reply #82 - Jul 7th, 2006 at 8:31am

Nav   Offline
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Hi alert5, welcome!

No, the tute only covers the landing phase, not the whole flight and approach. Also, ILS systems only have a range of about 30 miles.

Basically you should only start preparing for landing (and setting up the ILS) about thirty miles out, once the tower has told you which runway to use.

Tricky at first - but if you click the Map View on and enlarge it, you'll be able to see the runway layout and your position relative to it. Plot a course that will bring you in at an angle of about thirty degrees to the runway line, at say 15 miles out from the airport.

Then set the ILS frequency, and set the arrow on the 'VOR1' gauge to the runway heading. If you look at the first screenshot you'll see how it should look - the white arrow is the runway line, the shorter magenta line is the line of the runway. You can see that I'm approaching at about a 40-degree angle. Then press 'APP' and the autopilot will line you up from there (AND cancel the 'Heading Hold' for you at the right moment).

Sounds complicated, but after a bit of practice you get so you can use the gauge as a 'map'. Early on, it's not a bad idea actually to sketch things out on a bit of paper, if you're not sure of things.

Make sure, too, that you're well below the glideslope as you close in; the ILS won't capture the glideslope unless you're below it. 2,500 feet at not less than 15 miles out is a good start.

As for speed, the golden rule is to slow down early. And approach level -  no use starting a desperate dive at the last minute, you'll be travelling far too fast as you arrive. 220 knots is plenty fast enough once you're within 15 miles.

Just before you capture the glideslope (you'll see that magenta arrowhead on the gauge start moving down) slow to 180 knots, and put down five degrees of flap and the gear. Again, the A/P will cancel 'Altitude Hold' for you.

Once you're established on the slope, add more flap and slow to 140 knots once it's all down. Then just land!

Hope all that helps.
 
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Reply #83 - Jul 7th, 2006 at 8:44am

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Hi Nav,

Firstly, thanks very much for the tute, your reply and the welcome!

That's very interesting that the ILS systems have the 30 mile or so range.  I guess that's why the glidescope path indicator pings on when I'm nearing my destination airport.

Just one more question Wink Do most people align up to the glidescope manually or with the AP?  I find the AP really slow and too relaxed when lining up, takes about 10 miles gently swaying before it lines up perfectly.

Once again, many thanks!
 

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Reply #84 - Jul 7th, 2006 at 8:48am

Nexus   Offline
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Sorry to be picky...but it's glide SLOPE...it's a vertical guidance of the ILS system

You seem to confuse it with LOCALIZER which is the lateral guidance signal.

IRL, most pilots lets the AP intercept the localizer and glideslope, granted in real life, it's much more smoother.
 
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Reply #85 - Jul 7th, 2006 at 8:51am

Nav   Offline
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Pleasure, alert5.  Smiley

As to auto or manual, depends on your mood (and skill level).

I tend to let George do the work until I'm close, then take over and land using the 'Eyeball Mark One'. But it's up to you. The airlines use all the automatic aids they can, on the 'safety first' principle.

The reason that the ILS takes time lining up, by the way, is that radio beams 'spread' the further out you are - just like a torchbeam. Additionally, if it doesn't seem to line up perfectly, that's probably because it's allowing for wind. So give it time, the ILS is doing its best and it'll get there!
 
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Reply #86 - Jul 7th, 2006 at 9:00am

alert5   Offline
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Quote:
I tend to let George do the work until I'm close


Grin Excellent, you've named your AP! Grin

Perhaps I should be a little more forgiving with the AP lining up to the glidescope then.  Just that I'm really tense at this stage trying to remember everything and the AP is swaying like it's having a slow dance with it's glidescope girlfriend.
 

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Reply #87 - Jul 7th, 2006 at 9:13am

Nav   Offline
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The A/P probably says the same sort of thing about YOUR flying, alert5. Smiley

On 'auto v. manual', assuming that you're fairly new to FS, I think there are three phases. At first, you'll NEED the auto aids. Try to work up from there to the point where you can do everything the autopilot can do, if need be. Then you can sink back into laziness (like me) and use George to do everything except make the coffee for you! Smiley
 
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Reply #88 - Jul 7th, 2006 at 9:36am

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>>The A/P probably says the same sort of thing about YOUR flying, alert5.

Grin Very good!  Sometimes it switches itself on automatically because it feels airsick when i fly manually.

I try and not to fly manually at all if i can help it.  i feel it's more realistic.  i can't imagine commercial airline pilots flying most of the trip manually.
 

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Reply #89 - Jul 8th, 2006 at 1:07am

Nav   Offline
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alert5, about 'glidescope', poor Nexus will be grinding his teeth!

An ILS consists of TWO radio beams. The first, the 'localiser', is a horizontal directional beam (like a VOR) which lines you up. The second - the glides-L-ope', with an 'L' Smiley - is aligned vertically and guides you down to the runway at the correct rate of descent.

About flying manual, commercial pilots like to do as much of it as they can, to stay in practice. Most of them fly the climb out after takeoff manually most of the way to height, for example. But when it comes to landing (depending on how well the airport they're flying to is equipped) they are normally REQUIRED by company and air safety regulations to use the auto systems. I believe that they have to apply for special permission to practise landing manually, and only usually get it a couple of times a month.

Makes entire sense for them to stay in practice really. How would you like to be a passenger on an aircraft where the automatic systems broke down - and find out (the hard way) that the 'Pilot Flying' hadn't actually landed an airliner by hand for the last five years or so? Smiley

Generally, if I were you, I'd persevere with 'manual' until you're good at it. You'll get a lot more fun out of FS that way, in the long run; and you'll be able to fly the historical types and any sort of download as well as the 'full auto' default types. AND land at airports which don't have ILS.
 
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Reply #90 - Jul 8th, 2006 at 1:14am

vololiberista   Offline
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Quote:
About flying manual, commercial pilots like to do as much of it as they can, to stay in practice. Most of them fly the climb out after takeoff manually most of the way to height, for example. But when it comes to landing (depending on how well the airport they're flying to is equipped) they are normally REQUIRED by company and air safety regulations to use the auto systems. I believe that they have to apply for special permission to practise landing manually, and only usually get it a couple of times a month.

Yes this is the case in UK airspace.  Where an airfield has an ILS facility it is deemed to be used by ALL pilots.  Pilots can ask for a visual approach if the weather is VMC but would only be granted permission if the airport was not busy at the time..

I was on an Easyjet flight into Luton when P2 took over and nearly lost the a/c!!! It was his first time out of the 737 simulator!!!!!  P1 put it back onto the AP and we landed safely!!

 

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Reply #91 - Jul 8th, 2006 at 1:56am

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volo, ok..i set up a vor flight from southampton to leeds bradford..but the ils would bring the glideslope..why? and when should i set the radio? into nav1 or 2? and when i take off..should AP be on hdg or nav?

thank you
 

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Reply #92 - Jul 8th, 2006 at 2:52am

Nav   Offline
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ranger, with respect, you're going a mile outside the scope of the tute. I think you may be trying to 'run before you can walk'. You have to take FS step by step, it's no use talking about landing until you've learned the basics of flying and navigating.

Please go to 'Getting Started' in the FS Learning Centre - that will gve you basic information on flight planning, navigation etc. Look up anything you're not sure of in the Learning Centre Index, for more detail. And maybe try some of the Flying Lessons? No need to do them all, but many of them (particularly the early ones) are very good.
 
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Reply #93 - Jul 8th, 2006 at 1:35pm

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Quote:
volo, ok..i set up a vor flight from southampton to leeds bradford..but the ils would bring the glideslope..why? and when should i set the radio? into nav1 or 2? and when i take off..should AP be on hdg or nav?

thank you

Just try to recreate the exact flight at the beginning of this thread, and once you've done that a few times, you'll be quite acquainted with the routine for an ILS landing.  Thus, you'll be more adaptable to a flight like that one.
 

...&&Formerly HighFlyer24
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Reply #94 - Jul 8th, 2006 at 2:59pm

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nav, i can take off, land, fly level, and easy..it just setting up the nav radio which is gettin me.
 

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Reply #95 - Jul 8th, 2006 at 3:45pm

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You got two NAV radios
The captain's NAV radio is NAV 1
Co.pilot's is NAV 2

As you're in the captain's seat you will use NAV 1 as your primary tool. The ILS frequency will go here.
During an single channel ILS approach, if the ILS has no DME, it is common sense to put the aiport VOR in the other NAV radio for DME awareness.

An ILS has very limited range, so I usually make it active 20nm out. It's pointless to activate it right after take-off since it obviously will be out of range.
 
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Reply #96 - Jul 8th, 2006 at 3:46pm

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ILS freqs should ALWAYS go into NAV 1 on your radio stack. You also need to hit the "APPR" button on your AP command panel, and if you will also need to disable the ALT Hold function. You also need your Nav system to be in NAV mode, not GPS.
 
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Reply #97 - Jul 8th, 2006 at 3:59pm

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Quote:
volo, ok..i set up a vor flight from southampton to leeds bradford..but the ils would bring the glideslope..why? and when should i set the radio? into nav1 or 2? and when i take off..should AP be on hdg or nav?

thank you


Before pushback but after taxi clearance set the HDG (heading) bug to the magnetic heading of the departure  rwy
If you're flying VOR to VOR ie not GPS then set your NAV1 to the frequency of the first VOR. Use NAV2 for reference headings eg On an approach plate you will often see something like "turn left on LON radial 114"
On take off after you have crabbed the a/c into wind to keep it straight select HDG on your AP. After ATC hand you over they will vector you and tell you to "resume own navigation"  When the a/c has settled onto the vectored heading select NAV or GPS on your AP depending on what type of flight plan you have set up.
As you arrive at your destination remember to reduce your airspeed in stages. At about 30nm out you should be at 180kts IAS. ATC will vector you to establish on the localiser. Now select the ILS frequency on NAV1 and turn the OBS knob to the magnetic heading of the ILS approach. It's good practice at this point to have the heading bug set to the heading you are flying before you switch over to the ILS otherwise the a/c will turn unexpectedly whilst you are setting up the ILS and you will probably have to initiate a missed approach.
Hope this helps
Vololiberista
 

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Reply #98 - Jul 8th, 2006 at 4:04pm

vololiberista   Offline
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PS when you get good at flying ILS procedures download Kai Tak (the old airport of Hong Kong). You have to do a visual right turn to land "after" flying the glideslope!!!!!!!
It's actually easier to do in real life than on the sim!!!!
Vololiberista
 

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Reply #99 - Dec 30th, 2006 at 3:02pm

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DOH!


thanks alot, the idea of saving a flight 20 miles out is absouletly amazing, i am so usually wrapped up in landing that i have never thought of doing that. after all landing is the best part right...
 

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Reply #100 - Dec 30th, 2006 at 4:51pm

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Actually all the parts of a flight are nice, the best parts as you said, only the cruise is a little boring. Cheesy
 

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Reply #101 - Dec 30th, 2006 at 5:09pm

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Shocked There is no fuel on board? Could be an explanation why you could hold 140 kts without stalling.

Extremely well done documentation!

Many happy landings,

Conan
 

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Reply #102 - Dec 30th, 2006 at 11:53pm

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Nav, you are my hero!! That tutorial is outstanding...thanks for the work you put in on that! Cheesy
 
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Reply #103 - Dec 31st, 2006 at 1:43am

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Didn't see this before... very nice job!  Grin

In addition to forgetting the wind, Nav, you left the Nav lights off!!
Oh, the irony...  Roll Eyes  Cheesy

Flying around w/o port and starboard marker lights, are we?
Wink  Cheesy

And on a sort of side note, for what it's worth I don't think the hoops in the FS tutorial help at all... they are a distraction to holding the right airspeed, following the approach procedure, and remembering your wind and weather info, as well as the checklist ("Nav lights: ON"; before takeoff! Wink ). there's still talk about incorporating such visuals into future RL glass panels, and I think it's a bad idea.
 

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Reply #104 - Dec 31st, 2006 at 10:19pm

Nav   Offline
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Thanks fior the kind remarks, guys - glad you liked it.

Quote:
There is no fuel on board? Could be an explanation why you could hold 140 kts without stalling.  


Conan, a peculiarity of the 737 is that the two gauges on the panel only show the levels of the auxiliary tanks, not the main one. From memory the aircraft had around 30% fuel left.

I also wouldn't want people to get the idea that a heavy load requires a super-fast approach speed. The 737 is nowhere near stalling at 140 knots, if it has plenty of flap down. Heavily-loaded, maybe approach at 145 knots, add a touch of extra power to stay on the glideslope, maybe use full flap late on to generate more low-speed lift to help with flaring.

Quote:
And on a sort of side note, for what it's worth I don't think the hoops in the FS tutorial help at all...


Don't forget that the tute is meant for beginners, rottydaddy. One of the problems with FS is that there is no 'flying lesson' that shows the instructor landing the aeroplane - so it's difficult for beginners to get a 'mind's eye' picture of what a proper approach should look like. Mostly, in my experience, they tend to get too low too early. Using the flightpath a couple of times can definitely help them in that area; especially when they first try manual approaches.

 
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Reply #105 - Aug 12th, 2007 at 5:37pm

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Pleaseeeeeee! help!!  Embarrassed Embarrassed Tongue Roll Eyes
i still keep crashing after 2 days of trying
how do i know what's the runway direction?   Angry
 
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Reply #106 - Aug 12th, 2007 at 6:43pm

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The runway heading (direction) can be found by the runway "name". E.G, runway 12 is at a heading of 115 - 124 degrees (I think). Runway 13 is a heading of 125-134, and so on. Someone will correct me if i'm wrong, but this is how I have been flying for a few years and works fine Cheesy

You could also just use the GPS for a visual indication of where the runway is.

Edit:
Use the FS map and click on the runway to get the exact heading.
 
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Reply #107 - Aug 12th, 2007 at 7:45pm

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Flying an approach and landing in general is a complicated thing. Lots of stuff going on..

Practice it all in a smaller, slower plane and then work your way up  Smiley
 
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Reply #108 - Aug 12th, 2007 at 9:34pm

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Nav,

First, I would just like to jump on the bandwagon and congratulate you on a fine tutorial.  It is with complete honesty that I say your approach to the topic was not only helpful, but also very professional in appearance.  Well done.

Moving on a bit, I have always been the type of person that likes to have some paper in front of me to read from; I do not do so well looking at a computer monitor for extensive reading and learning.  Because of that, I copied your tutorial (for personal use) and put it into a pamplet form on Word.  I was wondering if you (Nav) and the powers that be (SimV mods and admins) would like to check it out and perhaps have it available for download.  Just a thought, and yea or nay on that idea is fine with me.  As a note, I should point out that I made some tiny changes to reflect the difference between reading the tutorial as a pamphlet versus looking at it online.  Nothing significant was changed, merely a few cosmetic details.

Anyway, thanks again.  Really helpful guide.

All the best,
~Darrin
 

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Reply #109 - Aug 13th, 2007 at 10:26pm

Nav   Offline
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Thanks for the kind words, Xyn_Air. It seems to be 'lasting' well and helping quite a few people, anyway.

As to-

Quote:
I was wondering if you (Nav) and the powers that be (SimV mods and admins) would like to check it out and perhaps have it available for download.


- there's no copyright on it or anything but if it's left to me, on reflection I'd rather not. I did have it in mind to make it into a download myself, but left it too late; if you look under 'Help & Tutorials' on the Simviation Main Page you'll find that there are already two straight 'cribs' of it available for download on there - entitled 'ILSTUTORIAL' and "ILS Landing.' Here are quotes illustrating the (terribly low) standard of each:-

ILSTUTORIAL – “When you are about to fly over the runway you should disarm the auto throttle and bring the throttles to idle for a 145-150 knot landing in our 737-800. Landing speeds will vary depending on the aircraft you are choosing to fly! Ohh… and don’t forget to lower the gear.  On touchdown, activate the reverse thrust levers and extend the spoilers. (you may choose to use the auto breaks as well.)”

ILS Landing – “Now comes the time to turn of the “Auto-pilot” and take the aeroplane yourself the runway looks big close in just keep the aeroplane level do not make any 10’ turns if the aeroplane pitches up a bit pitch it down till you become perfect for landing again not violent forces up. Looks at the whole length of the runway not the beginning of it and then as you become lower to about 500-300feet, raise the nose till it just covers the distant horizon keep it there until the back wheels touch down the a couple of seconds later lower the nose wheel to the ground then press (/) for spoilers and (F2) for reverse thrust to come to a complete stop then request taxi to the gate : )”.

However, there is also a link to the proper tute under 'Help and Tutorials' - so anyone who needs help can access it already. And of course, anyone who asks about landing on the forums gets referred to it too. Personally, I'm happy to leave it at that.
 
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Reply #110 - Nov 24th, 2007 at 2:49am

Jersey Flyer   Offline
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New Jerseys where its
at.
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Hey, a very nice tutorial, I got it on my first try, but now im getting confused again.

After I punch in the runways frequency on the "nav 1" in the radio stack, and switch from stand by, after when I punch in the runways course, I dont click on "nav" after that, do I ?

-JerseyFlyer
 
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Reply #111 - Nov 24th, 2007 at 3:54am
Sir Crashalot   Ex Member

 
Nope you use the Approach button. If you would use Nav nothing happens. Besides some very strange things you don't want......

Crash Wink
 
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Reply #112 - Nov 24th, 2007 at 2:00pm

Jersey Flyer   Offline
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New Jerseys where its
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;o okay

Ill be sure to take your word for that.  Grin

Mmkay tho, I was just making sure I dont hit that, I know all the steps, I just guess it takes some getting used to, lol.
 
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Reply #113 - Dec 12th, 2007 at 3:57am

Flight   Offline
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Get Ready For The Flight
...
DXB

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THANK YOU ... BiG time!
Ive been flying MFS since 98,00,02,04,X
and still Ive learnt some new skills from ur thread!  Wink
 

Take It To The Limits ...
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Reply #114 - Dec 12th, 2007 at 9:23pm

Nav   Offline
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Pleasure, Flight, glad it was useful.  Smiley
 
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Reply #115 - Dec 19th, 2007 at 10:19am

Putt4eagle   Offline
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Fly Virtual

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Great post. Thanks for the info. It would be awesome if you could make a video of it and post it on Youtube so you could see what you are doing as you do it from start to finish.
 
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Reply #116 - Dec 8th, 2010 at 9:45am

Nav   Offline
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Cheers R/C Ben!  Smiley

Apologies are due from me, willg - I'd got the impression from our conversations on landings on other threads that you were a bit 'newer' than that.  Smiley

I really wouldn't be too bothered about landing exactly on the centre-line - anywhere (on the runway) suits me!  And as the mistake in the tute shows, a gentle bank, giving the aeroplane time to respond, will usually get you out of trouble anyway.

As to:-

Quote:
i could do with some help on jet take off, as i always seem to get the nose up with the plane now climbing at all, jsut flying along the ground with the nose up for ages.


The answer is most probably 'the need for speed'.  Sounds as if you're getting the nose too high too early, before the aeroplane has the airspeed/wing lift to climb, so it's using all the available power just to stay in the air; what they used to call 'hanging on the prop'.

Watch the VSI and the ASI; keep straight, and keep the angle of climb at no more than say 15 degrees, until the speed reaches at least 180-200, the gear is retracted, and you've reduced to one notch of flap. After that she'll go up like a lift!  Smiley
 
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Reply #117 - Feb 22nd, 2011 at 12:41pm

milesg   Offline
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after a DC10-30 a good
747-400..IFLY..YES..
..
Venezuela, Caracas, D.F.

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Cheesy this is GREAT info...ill try it to night and see if all this works in fs 2004 for windows vista. but i think some info has gone on PERMANENT vacation. i cant get ils to work any place, except in the pre programs. as i said all check and thank you for this great information
 
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