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ATL-LAS 3 (Read 575 times)
Jan 10th, 2005 at 11:51am

iwannaflySC   Offline
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... approach and landing, from a recent flight from Atlanta to Las Vegas.

Speed brakes!

...

Flaps 10 degrees! (Or is it 15 ... I can't tell .... )

...

The northern end of the strip, as we're on final  -- the tall needle is the Stratosphere.  Apparently there's some kind of a ride that goes to the top.  Rides that play with the contents of one's stomach aren't my cup of tea ... Smiley

...

... and touchdown!

...

No more Delta ... this is Southwest country! Smiley

...

Now that we're here, it's time to loose the life-savings Cheesy ...
« Last Edit: Jan 11th, 2005 at 3:03pm by iwannaflySC »  
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Reply #1 - Jan 10th, 2005 at 12:54pm
Ben_M_K   Ex Member

 
So what airline did you fly?

Cool shots...looks like he used speed brakes a bit early. Can anyone else confirm this?
 
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Reply #2 - Jan 10th, 2005 at 1:09pm

eno   Offline
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Are you talking about the first shot  Ben?
If so then they are being used to reduce speed during the descent. Note the angle and then check the angle in the touchdown shot.
 
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Reply #3 - Jan 10th, 2005 at 1:18pm

iwannaflySC   Offline
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Ben -- flew Delta.  I don't really like them, since on a lot of their planes, they have very little leg-room (and I'm about 6'3").  The return was on a 767-400, which easily has, IMO, the least legroom I've encountered in coach. The thing is that DL uses these on international routes, and I recall, rather unpleasantly, a long flight from Rome to Atlanta -- 11.5 hours cooped up in that iddy-biddy seat. Ugh.

And yep -- the slight use of speed-brakes is common to reduce speed during a rapid descent.  In fs, though, I've noticed there is no way to deploy them only slightly.  If one uses them during descent, they come up all the way!
« Last Edit: Jan 11th, 2005 at 3:12pm by iwannaflySC »  
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Reply #4 - Jan 10th, 2005 at 1:23pm
Ben_M_K   Ex Member

 
Okay my bad. Grin Grin
 
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Reply #5 - Jan 10th, 2005 at 9:25pm

jrpilot   Offline
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Nice..as far as speed breaks go...I believe that above 10,000 feet the pilots do not use them unless ATC ask them to maintain a speed above 10,000 and after flaps 15..I believe thats the way it goes Wink
 
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Reply #6 - Jan 10th, 2005 at 10:54pm
Drumlineramos   Ex Member

 
i've managed to use the speed breaks in incriments. but it requires using your mouse and dragging the spoilers. it works on most, like the 737 and 777, but i do have the tendency to leave out the spoilers on a 747 Grin

P.S. using the joystick trottle for the speed breaks doesn't work
 
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Reply #7 - Jan 11th, 2005 at 4:37am

Hagar   Offline
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Nice shots again. Smiley

Quote:
speed breaks

I know I'm a fussy old wotsit but can I point out it's speed or air brakes, like brakes on a car. Breaks is when you smash something up.
 
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Reply #8 - Jan 11th, 2005 at 10:15am

Rifleman   Offline
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Quote:
Nice shots again. Smiley

I know I'm a fussy old wotsit but can I point out it's speed or air brakes, like brakes on a car. Breaks is when you smash something up.


Thanks for that Doug, it was knawing at me too, .....

.....but now for the speed brakes,... I think on the wing, they are usually termed spoilers, and in fact although they do posses some slowing effect, their main use may be to set and maintain a sink rate for the descending part of the flight......... ???
........in general, I have always been led to believe that in the area of speed brakes, they are made with the intention of no flight attitude changes during  application, although when slowing a flying aircraft, there is normally a tendency to bring down the nose as airspeed is lost.......

*"error corrections appreciated"*
 
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Reply #9 - Jan 11th, 2005 at 11:58am

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
Thanks for that Doug, it was knawing at me too, .....

.....but now for the speed brakes,... I think on the wing, they are usually termed spoilers, and in fact although they do posses some slowing effect, their main use may be to set and maintain a sink rate for the descending part of the flight......... ???

I'm in no position to correct anyone as none of the aircraft I've flown (except for the Hunter on which I had a few minutes stick time) were fitted with speed brakes - or airbrakes as I've always referred to them.  Many years ago I used to overhaul the airbrake jack on the HS.125 & this is how it was described in the manufacturer's technical manual.

I also understood that airbrakes & spoilers are different. Spoilers are usually fitted to the upper wing surfaces & were originally used on sailplanes to destroy (spoil) the lift over the area of the wing they're fitted to, thus increasing the rate of descent & mainly used while landing. (Some sailplanes have dual spoilers/airbrakes that extend both above & below the wings.)  Modern sailplane aerofoils are so efficient they would be impossible to land without spoilers. The idea has since become popular on all types of modern aircraft.

Airbrakes, as the name suggests, are used to brake or slow the aircraft by increasing drag without affecting the lift. In fact some types might even improve lift. Airbrakes are usually fitted below the wings (the flaps on the Spitfire also act as airbrakes) or to the rear fuselage as on the F-86 Sabre. The Hunter & BAe Hawk have a single large airbrake fitted below the rear fuselage. Other methods involve split control surfaces (ailerons, rudder or "crow flaps")  & the "clamshell" type where the complete rear fuselage splits in half as on the Blackburn Buccaneer & BAe 146. http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=223570

I could be wrong but that's how I always described the difference.
« Last Edit: Jan 11th, 2005 at 3:56pm by Hagar »  
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Reply #10 - Jan 11th, 2005 at 3:12pm

iwannaflySC   Offline
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*** AAAARGH ***

I can't believe I wrote "breaks" for "brakes."  It's the kind of thing that I find annoying ... so maybe it's just as well tha I'm guilty of such a lapse once in a while -- keeps me head from getting too big. Cheesy

I always thought speed brakes and spoilers were the same thing ... so thanks for that informative post, Hagar.

On fs (I've never flown in the real world), I've used speed brakes only on landing (by arming the spoilers to deploy automatically on touchdown on the jets).  The various fs aircraft manuals I've read suggest using them for accelerated rates of descent (say, between 2500 - 3000 fpm for a CRJ, for instance, if I recall correctly). 

However, in fs, anytime I deploy them in flight for a rapid descent (like those times ATC clears one for landing 10 miles out, when one is still, oh 10000ft AGL Smiley.  Yah, I should do a 360 but I hate those!), I have noticed attitude changes -- the nose pitches up! This may be because the autopilot is still engaged, and is trying to compensate for the decreased lift.   It always felt "unreal," because I never recall feeling such attitude changes during descent when I've flown commercially.  But then, I've never tried using the mouse to incrementally deploy spoilers -- will keep that in mind!
 
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Reply #11 - Jan 11th, 2005 at 7:30pm

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
*** AAAARGH ***

I can't believe I wrote "breaks" for "brakes."  It's the kind of thing that I find annoying ... so maybe it's just as well tha I'm guilty of such a lapse once in a while -- keeps me head from getting too big. Cheesy

Never mind.Put it down to a typo. It's one of those silly little things that annoys me too. Wink

Quote:
I always thought speed brakes and spoilers were the same thing ... so thanks for that informative post, Hagar.

This might be as they're described as both in FS. Things might have changed since my day. Modern jet airliners have complex systems incorporating spoilers, airbrakes & leading edge slats. I found this description of the HS 125 "Lift Dump" system. The airbrakes sound like what I would call spoilers. I've never seen them as I only worked on the airbrake jacks themselves.

Quote:
Airbrake
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The airbrake system consists of panels located on the upper surface of each wing.  They are hydraulically actuated by a single "Airbrake / Lift Dump" handle in the cockpit.  The airbrake must be in the retracted position whenever flaps are extended.  The only exception to this is during the landing roll.

Lift Dump
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Lift Dump system consists of the flaps, and the airbrake.  Lift Dump may be selected only when the flaps are in the fully extended position.  After landing, apply the airbrake.  When it reaches the aft stop, pull the lever slightly up, and then aft and down.  This extends the flaps to a nearly vertical position, and substantially increases drag.  You will be surprised at how effective they are.  Do not attempt to retract the flaps until the airbrake handle has been placed to the stowed position.

http://www.airplanedriver.net/study/hs-125.htm
 
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Reply #12 - Jan 12th, 2005 at 7:13am

Silver1SWA   Offline
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Couple things here...

First of all, there are three rides on top of the Stratosphere.  I have been on two of them.  The third did not exist when I rode the other two rides.  It was an awesome experience to say the least!

Second, I have always known spoilers and speed/air brakes to be the same thing.  However, I personally like to use the different terms depending on the situation they are being used.  For example, I call them spoilers when refering to their deployment on landing as they are fully deployed and their function is to spoil lift.  This helps keep the plane on the ground and eliminate the tendency of the aircraft to want to keep flying.  They really are not there to slow the plane down on landing (even though yes, they do create drag causing the plane to slow down)...they simply spoil liift to eliminate it from the wings.

Speed/air brakes are when they are used in flight such as on a rapid descent, or a need to maintain a certain speed during a descent.  When this happens (which is quite common), they are never deployed fully and in this case they increase drag...therefore their purpose is to slow the aircraft down.  Hence the term "brakes".

Make sense?
 
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Reply #13 - Jan 12th, 2005 at 7:35am

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
Make sense?

Makes perfect sense to me. Thanks for clearing that up. Wink
 
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Reply #14 - Jan 12th, 2005 at 11:01am

Omag 2.0   Offline
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Awsome series of shots IwannaflySC! Well done and thanks for sharing!

And great explanation of the brakes subject guys! makes a "learning"-member like me very happy!   Smiley
 
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