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Short Field landings in fully loaded heavies (Read 2125 times)
Nov 15th, 2004 at 10:45pm

Brute   Offline
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Well I've been working on this techinque for a while so here is my checklist to land a heavy in less than 4000ft Cheesy. I Practiced in Antartica hostile environment, and so on, one of the bases I practiced at was 4500ft long and if you overshot u took a nice swim in some artic lake, anyway:

1)10nm from arpt slow to 210knts fly 90* against the runway.

2)Line up on long final, come in low and slow, forget the glideslope, use the MDA and hold that, until you clear the obstructions

3) Set autobrakes to 1

4)Begin flare 200ft agl

5) Let the plane bleed off speed

6)Apply Reverse thrust immedialtly hold the nose up

7) Upon TD gently lower the nose by relieving back pressure

8 ) When the nose hits (or smacks) into the ground set autobrakes to MAX or RTO

9)Do not retract flaps

10)Hold Reverse thrust until complete stop is achieved

11)Clean up the aircraft
 

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Reply #1 - Nov 16th, 2004 at 10:01pm

beefhole   Offline
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Why not have autobrake on max to begin with  ???
 
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Reply #2 - Nov 16th, 2004 at 11:15pm

Brute   Offline
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The brake force will make the nose slam into the floor causing a tradgeic explosion Undecided
 

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Reply #3 - Dec 30th, 2004 at 12:11pm

Issflareman   Offline
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Its good practice to try Devil's Hopyard in a C-130. I have throttle on idle until just before i land, then full autobrake and reverse.
 

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Reply #4 - Dec 30th, 2004 at 6:39pm

beefhole   Offline
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Quote:
The brake force will make the nose slam into the floor causing a tradgeic explosion Undecided

I was just reading up on autobrake procedures and I know this is literally like a month and a half late but no, it would not.  MAX autobrake is used only in the event of an emergency, such as a really hard landing (me personally even in the event of a heavy landing I wouldn't use MAX auto-and remember that full manual braking is stronger than MAX autobrake) and would not cause an explosion.  And there's no concievable reason to set brakes to RTO on a landing.
 
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Reply #5 - Jan 5th, 2005 at 1:03am

Rocket_Bird   Offline
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Max autobrake is for dry runways...  It just sets more pressure for the amount of skid on the runway... I thought it was safe, as the amount of skid is controlled by a black box, which automatically adjusts pressure to the brakes as you slow down... (or maybe im just thinking about the 1 setting  ???)

And don't set RTO on landing... well you can... but you may overstress your airframe in flight simulator... RTO is designed if you reject your take-off in an emergency.  In the real world, what will likely happen is that you will kill your brakes, and you will blow the fuses on every tire, resulting in deflation.  (better than blowing the tires, but it will still damage your gear)
 

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Reply #6 - Jan 5th, 2005 at 8:13am

beefhole   Offline
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Yup, you're thinking about 1, which is for dry runways.  I'm actually not 100% sure how MAX auto is used, since any time when you would need full braking you would just do it manually (because, like I said before, full manual braking is sronger than MAX auto).
 
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Reply #7 - Jan 5th, 2005 at 10:18pm

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Don't really see the point...  But I guess if you were that Air Transat flight that glided without engines for 15 minutes trying to stop at a runway with no thrust reversers or flaps... it could come in handy... maybe to relieve stress no?
 

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Reply #8 - Jan 5th, 2005 at 10:22pm

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Then again im not sure if you can run that thing just on fan power.... no engines no generators...
 

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Reply #9 - Jan 5th, 2005 at 10:26pm

beefhole   Offline
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Are you refering to the A330 that glided for something like 75 miles and landed in Lajes (definitely more than 15 mins)?  Incredible story, no?

Heh you posted right when I was typing, the fan power will give power to only the pilots PFD and ND, maybe the EICAS I don't remember, but that's all they get.  That and comms.
 
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Reply #10 - Jan 6th, 2005 at 1:54am

Rocket_Bird   Offline
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not sure about eicas, probably not, for the most part they were on 172 gauges as far as the panel goes...maybe some vital electronic instruments and stuff but thats it. ya incredible story though.  They made a clip about it on discovery once... if only theres an online version to see it again
 

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Reply #11 - Jan 6th, 2005 at 8:26am

beefhole   Offline
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There was a full hour-long show (actually there were two-one was much better than the other) on it where they recreated everything that happened in the cockpit, I learned about checking fuel every half hour from this show Smiley The pilot definitely had his PFD and ND up, but that was about it. They went into the record books for the longest ever plane glide.
 
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Reply #12 - Jan 6th, 2005 at 9:11am

Nexus   Offline
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Allright where should I start Wink

RTO, no use in arming that thing before landing...since RTO dont react to pressure on the landing gear struts, but on throttle retardation WHILE you are on the ground and above a certain speed.

Autobrake on MAX is rarely used, if you want a firm braking action you'd select 3 (which is done on most landings on short runways)

The Airbus A330 incident. I don't know if you're aware of this, but the Airbus has 3 different hydraulic systems, labeled after colors (Blue, green and yellow).

When the A330 ran out of fuel, the RAT (Ram-air-turbine) automaticly extended since the AC busses went offline because of generator failures.
The Blue system is the "back-up" here since the green and yellow systems are powered by the engines.

But what happens when you lose the green and yellow systems? Well the RAT has enough power to drive the PFD/ND on the captains side, aswell as the upper ECAM, so they had adequate intruments. It can also power the slats. Braking is normally provided by the Green system, but the Blue system provides alternate braking...and if you lose the Blue system aswell there's still an acumulator that will provide braking for you.

 
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Reply #13 - Jan 6th, 2005 at 5:15pm

jknight8907   Offline
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Back to the original question...why not retract the flaps? That would put more weight on the wheels and increase available braking force. Also, you probably wouldn't have to hold at the MDA the whole way in, a normal descent would still allow you to keep your speed down.
 

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Reply #14 - Jan 6th, 2005 at 6:20pm

beefhole   Offline
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Sweet, what I got out of Nexus' reply was I wasn't wrong about anything Smiley. J, are you referring to Brutes original posts or the A330 incident?  And I only know this from FS experience, but when you lose your engines don't you also lose flaps?
 
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Reply #15 - Jan 6th, 2005 at 7:52pm

Nexus   Offline
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I'd say you're correct Beefhole (regarding flaps and engine failures)
In the case of the airbus, I already told you the the Blue system will fix the slats for you. However the flap system uses yellow and green hydraulic power so the A330 crew on the Transat flight had no access to the flap system if I have got my facts straight  Smiley

Besides , flaps aren't suitable when landing without engines anyway, causes way too much drag.
However, the slats can fail aswell. If the pressure in the blue system isn't adequate to power heavy load users (slats are one of them) a priority valve will cut off hydraulic power to the slats.

Another aircraft, the B737 would not have working flaps either, should the engines fail. Hydraulic system B (#2 engine) normally powers the trailing edge flaps, but the standby system is capable of power the leading edge devices.
 
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Reply #16 - Mar 1st, 2005 at 11:11pm

Brute   Offline
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Quote:
Back to the original question...why not retract the flaps? That would put more weight on the wheels and increase available braking force. Also, you probably wouldn't have to hold at the MDA the whole way in, a normal descent would still allow you to keep your speed down.


Well I know this is very late, but the thoughts wondered back into my head on a recent landing, anyway.

I wouldn't retract the flaps because in my experience most surfaces that are less than 4500ft are x-wind general aviation runways at large airports or unpaved strips, and since you wouldn't want to risk the lives of people at the airport you would take the long paved runway, this IMHO for the most purposes eliminates paved runways....no? So the runways that would makes soft runways the likely area of operation, retracting the flaps puts more weight on the tires, however the soft ground such as gravel, planks (in Laos...i think), bricks, grass, etc. so IMHO aerodynamic braking and thrust reversing seem more feasible. About the brakes to RTO comment, i was saying that simply because it works, im aware of the consiquences of doing so.


P.S In the FS2004 main forum I can't post, because it says im banned from this forum Sad what did I do?
 

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Reply #17 - Mar 2nd, 2005 at 7:20pm

Saratoga   Offline
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Ok well lemme address some things from a pilot's perspective.

I ain't a big fan of autobrake myself, I much prefer manually braking it just for the wear savings (and maybe more challenge).
When it is used, Autobrake 1 is used on a long dry runway where you are in no rush to exit.
Autobrake 2 is for the long but not huge runways or a quick exit.
Autobrake 3 is for bad conditions, VERY short runway or heavy load, most pilots manually do it at this stage though.
Autobrake MAX is only used in the most dire situations, bad landings where you touch down hard or what not. It does not slam the nosegear down, in most airplanes autobrakes actually don't kick in until the nosegear is down. You risk, especially on older airplanes, damaging the tires or the brakes if you use the Autobrake MAX setting.
RTO applies maximum sustainable brake power if the power is retarded to idle after takeoff power is attained. This will under most conditions blow the tires, but the brakes are normally still in good condition (for airplane brakes anyways) after it is all over.
Most airline pilots I know (myself included) immediately stomp on the brakes if something goes wrong, just a natural reaction we learned in smaller planes. In the Boeing jets, if the pilot applies any brakes during the takeoff roll the RTO setting automatically kicks to the OFF setting. Which works for us, we can apply more brake pressure and can vary it as necessary (if the airplane is stopped using the RTO setting, it is extremely uncomfortable, like slamming the brakes on in a car or throwing into first doing like 80 in a manual, you get tossed all over the place).

Hope it helps.
 

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Reply #18 - Mar 2nd, 2005 at 7:31pm

Brute   Offline
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Thanks for all the helpful criticism, I too am a pilot, although not a Bus-driver like yourself, and my plane doesn't have autobrakes Roll Eyes , and totally enjoy flying, that and the other 'thing' are the two things that make me happy, BTW how did you guys get your liscences? Im working on my PPL, but my age (14) keeps the liscence just out of my reach:(
 

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Reply #19 - Mar 2nd, 2005 at 9:42pm

Saratoga   Offline
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Well at 14 you are already on your way, just keep up and stay motivated. I got my PPL in High School, finished my Instrument also. Rest of my licenses from the Air Force. Quick and easy!
 

Pilot for a major US airline certified in the: EMB-120, CRJ, 727, 737, 757, 767, and A-320 and military, T-38, C-130, C-141, and C-5 along with misc. other small airplanes. Any questions, I'm here for you.
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Reply #20 - Mar 3rd, 2005 at 8:33pm

Brute   Offline
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The AF.....Sad black guy has no place there. but my instructor calls me a natural, he actually fell asleep during one of my flights....I should have set the Tachometer back:-\ oops. But anyway Im trying.
 

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Reply #21 - Mar 3rd, 2005 at 9:54pm

Saratoga   Offline
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Ahh you could do great in the Air Force. Race isn't a problem. Some of the best people (and definetly the best First Sergeants) I ever met were African American. And as a flight instructor I trained plenty of pilots.

Honestly, African Americans take more time, they WANT to earn the license, not just fight with the plane. They want to enjoy the flight and do it right. I have actually had an African American student tell me he wanted to continue flying so he could do it right.
 

Pilot for a major US airline certified in the: EMB-120, CRJ, 727, 737, 757, 767, and A-320 and military, T-38, C-130, C-141, and C-5 along with misc. other small airplanes. Any questions, I'm here for you.
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Reply #22 - Mar 3rd, 2005 at 10:01pm

Brute   Offline
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lol, I hear your point, but I'd rather not kill for my liscence, not saying the military is a bunch of rambo killers, the opposite can be the case, but the man in charge is, and the man behind after him could be worse, I don't wanna gamble that
 

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Reply #23 - Mar 3rd, 2005 at 10:51pm

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My advice to you:

I understand not wanting to join the AF, I don't like being pushed around and yelled at either. I also don't like putting my life at risk for anything. Work hard in school and go to college, major in something you like and will make loads of money; you'll probably need it.  Save your pennies, don't waste them on booze, cigarettes, loud stereos, big rims, loud exhaust pipes and other useless crap for you car.
 

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Reply #24 - Mar 4th, 2005 at 4:19pm

Saratoga   Offline
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Well I don't want to argue, I have full faith in the United States military and it's Commander in Chief. Chomp, if you are a pilot in the Air Force, you're an officer. And as an officer, you don't get yelled at or pushed around (unless you really mess up). Basic training is overstated, not too hard at all. Especially the Air Force training, it's mentally focused and you don't do tons of PT.
Whatever happens, go to college, have some fun but work hard in your classes. After that's out, you have several options. Either finish your training in a flight school somewhere if you have the money, or enlist in the Air Force and don't accept the terms until the recruiter guarantees you a spot in OCS (Officer's Candidate School). Finish your pilot training, apply for an airline (or finish your military term, then do the same) and wait. It can take several months to find a job, but eventually your perserverence will pay off and you'll be on top of the world.
 

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