Simviation Forum - Flying the 109...anyone?

Reply #15 - Oct 30^th, 2004 at 3:13am

Flt.Lt.Andrew Ex Member

I was thinking, but squares don't really slide back do they?
It would have called for a total redesign...and Willy didn't have much time...

A.

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Reply #16 - Oct 30^th, 2004 at 3:47am

Hagar Offline
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Quote:

I was thinking, but squares don't really slide back do they?
It would have called for a total redesign...and Willy didn't have much time...

A.

I don't see why it couldn't have been done, even with the original angular canopy. Sliding canopies have their own problems & jam easily if the rails get damaged or even slightly bent. Many BoB Hurricane & Spitfire pilots suffered terrible burns when their aircraft caught fire & their canopy jammed. An emergency canopy release system was developed to overcome this on later RAF types.

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Reply #17 - Oct 30^th, 2004 at 5:27am

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I recall reading somewhere not long ago, that the pilots of one of the German fighters (it was probably the 109), wanted explosive cartridges fitted to the hinges so they could literally 'blow' the canopy. That would have been a more effective fix.

There was talk of an 'ejector seat' in the Me262 also. I don't remember where I read this stuff, but it was in the last month or two.... I'll try to find it.

But, of course, the visibilty problem must have been ridiculous. I just don't understand how they could see, especially during a dogfight, or in bad weather, when even the 'bubble' canopies of the American and British planes were hard to see through.

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Reply #18 - Oct 30^th, 2004 at 12:39pm

Heretic Ex Member

They made the best of what they had - and were very successful.
That's why I think that every 'pit that is bigger than the one from a 109 is a waste of space. Wink

The "explosives" were used in the Do 335,together with ejector seats and with a high probability in the 262,too.

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Reply #19 - Oct 30^th, 2004 at 1:25pm

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The way I see it, fighters with a sliding canopy can be flown with it open. For example: when taking off & landing or even to wipe the windscreen if it gets covered with oil. I've read of some instances where damaged Hurricanes & Spitfires were landed safely by the pilot sticking his head outside the cockpit for a clear view. The Bf 109 pilots never had this option. I still find it puzzling that they stuck with that side-hinged canopy & that the pilots put up with it. ???

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Reply #20 - Oct 30^th, 2004 at 1:30pm

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Because zer Jarman engineering ist der best in der west. Zo vart ist dun ist dun corvect. Grin

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Reply #21 - Oct 30^th, 2004 at 1:39pm

Hagar Offline
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Because zer Jarman engineering ist der best in der west. Zo vart ist dun ist dun corvect. Grin

LOL Woody. Grin

You're not far wrong there though. The German aircraft designers & engineers were very talented. That's why I find this so difficult to understand. Converting that canopy to slide is not exactly rocket science is it? Many such mods were done in the field by the RAF bods & taken up by the manufacturers when they proved successful.

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Reply #22 - Oct 30^th, 2004 at 6:27pm

Professor Brensec Offline
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What surprises me even more, is they actually decided to fit an 'improved' redesigned hood (the 'Galland'), but even then, didn't address the obvious shortcomings!!
Roll Eyes

Are there any figures at all, which would indicate, at least to a degree, how many pilots who were 'shot down' in the 109 survived as opposed to 190's being shot down and the pilot being able to bail?

Sort of an indication of how many lives were lost because of the diffuculty involved in exiting such a small cockpit with an inadequate canopy mechanism. ??? Wink

I know there is one particular German pilot (he didn't fly the 109) that was responsible for destroying 500 Russian tanks and was shot down 30 times. Obviously, being responsible for 500 tanks it was probably a P400 (with the cannon it would have been easier to do). This bloke would certainly have been peeing into the wind to survive 30 bailouts or forced landings in a 109!! Grin

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Reply #23 - Oct 30^th, 2004 at 6:34pm

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I'm sure with 30 bailouts he would even have had bailing out of a 109 down to a pretty fine art. Grin

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Reply #24 - Oct 31^st, 2004 at 1:18am

Flt.Lt.Andrew Ex Member

Ah.... explosive charges..
They are always such a great idea but I've noticed someone always seems to inconvienently die when the are tested...it would have worked though, especially with the Germans...

A.

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Reply #25 - Oct 31^st, 2004 at 4:05am

Heretic Ex Member

Quote:

What surprises me even more, is they actually decided to fit an 'improved' redesigned hood (the 'Galland'), but even then, didn't address the obvious shortcomings!!
Roll Eyes

Try to fit a sliding canopy onto a 109 - it'd a) look extremely crappy, b) affect aerodynamics and c) weigh way too much.

Quote:

Are there any figures at all, which would indicate, at least to a degree, how many pilots who were 'shot down' in the 109 survived as opposed to 190's being shot down and the pilot being able to bail?

Quote:

Sort of an indication of how many lives were lost because of the diffuculty involved in exiting such a small cockpit with an inadequate canopy mechanism. ??? Wink

AFAIK, you could blow the canopy off in one piece and every at least halfway skinny pilot could bail out.

The obvious advantage of a tight cockpit is the "one piece" feeling - you and your aircraft as one unit.

Quote:

I know there is one particular German pilot (he didn't fly the 109) that was responsible for destroying 500 Russian tanks and was shot down 30 times. Obviously, being responsible for 500 tanks it was probably a P400 (with the cannon it would have been easier to do). This bloke would certainly have been peeing into the wind to survive 30 bailouts or forced landings in a 109!! Grin

Rudel was his last name, Hans Ulrich his forename. He flew Ju-87 and was indeed very successful when it came to blowing up tanks.
Sadly, and unlike most of his Luftwaffe comerades, he was a fanatic National Socialist.

At least every Luftwaffe ace was shot down once or more and many of 'em flew a 109 - go figure. Wink

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Reply #26 - Oct 31^st, 2004 at 4:27am

Hagar Offline
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Try to fit a sliding canopy onto a 109 - it'd a) look extremely crappy, b) affect aerodynamics and c) weigh way too much.

Personally I don't see any difficulty. The standard canopy could easily be modified to lift above the level of the rear fuselage before sliding back. The radio aerial mast would have to be moved but this is no big problem. There were obviously reasons why they chose not to do it.

Andrew said: Quote:

Ah.... explosive charges..
They are always such a great idea but I've noticed someone always seems to inconvienently die when the are tested...

Explosive bolts have been used successfully (& safely) for many years. They were certainly used on WWII aircraft.

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Reply #27 - Nov 2^nd, 2004 at 3:58am

Flt.Lt.Andrew Ex Member

I was thinking, but why did the canopy bracings curve down in the Galland hood?

A.

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Reply #28 - Nov 2^nd, 2004 at 12:46pm

C Offline
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Quote:

I was thinking, but why did the canopy bracings curve down in the Galland hood?

A.

Probably as this was the easiest arrangement to allow decent canopy mouldings

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Reply #29 - Nov 2^nd, 2004 at 12:49pm

C Offline
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It always puzzled me why they retained the side-hinged canopy on later models of the Bf 109. This made it impossible for the pilot to escape if the aircraft overturned on the ground. If I remember correctly this was the most common cause of the casualties I mentioned. The Bf 109 (especially the later variants) was prone to overturn on take-off due to the amount of prop torque & narrow-tracked stalky undercarriage.

Hence when Black 6 overturned at Duxford in 1997 (?) this was why Sir John Allison sat upside down in the cockpit until the aircraft was turn over again, as he didn't want the firemen cutting him out...

Charlie

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