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Corsair VS. BF-109? (Read 2899 times)
Aug 13th, 2004 at 4:39am

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We were talking about Warhawks Vs. a 109 earlier, but I read through that again and was wondering about different intertheater matchups.  Did a Corsair ever fight a 109?  How about a Spitfire and a Zero?  A Bearcat Vs. a 190?  I'd love to know about these kinds of dogfights and how they turned out...
 

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Reply #1 - Aug 13th, 2004 at 8:03am

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The Corsair certainly served at some point in the ETO with the FAA. Corsairs escorted a bombing raid on the Terpitz but I have no idea about what opposition they met. Spits and Zeros certainly clashed. I think I'm correct in saying that the last aircraft shot down in WW2 were a couple of Zeros destroyed by Seafire L MkIIIcs on the very last day of the war.
 

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Reply #2 - Aug 13th, 2004 at 12:49pm

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The FAA raid against the Tirpitz came against absolutely no resistance from the air. In other words they were un-opposed.

The last japanise aircraft destroyed in WWII was an Oscar downed by a P61 on the final day of the war.
 

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Reply #3 - Aug 13th, 2004 at 9:36pm

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 How about F6F Hellcats vs. Me-109s and Fw-190s!  According to the Osprey publication "Hellcat aces of World War 2" on the 8th of May 1944 F6Fs flown by the FAA from the carrier HMS Emperor flew in a raid on the battleship Tirpitz.  "Hellcats engaged a small number of FW-190s and Me-109Gs from JG 5 over Norway.  Despite the Luftwaffe fighters' superior speed (30 kts or more), two Messerschmitts and a Focke-Wulf were claimed destroyed...".

 Another "unusual" matchup, Brewster Buffalos vs. Curtiss P-40s!  The Bufffalos, flown by the Finnish, came up against P-40s, flow by Russian pilots.  "The top Finnish ace, Eino Juutilainen, attained 33 of his 94 victories while flying the Brewster Buffalo.  Several of his victories were obtained against American-built Curtiss P-40s, which had been sold to the Sovit Air Force".

  More to come........
 
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Reply #4 - Aug 15th, 2004 at 3:52pm

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 As the 2nd World War was coming to an end in Europe, and Axis forces were being crushed between the Russian armies from the East and Allied armies from the West, it was inevitable that American and Soviet aircraft would come in contact with each other.....

 P-38s vs. Yaks:  In early November 1944 Russian troops in Yugoslavia had the Gremans in retreat and requested close air support from the 15th Air Force of the United States. The P-38s provided for that mission had done the job so well that the Russians requsted a repeat support mission be flown the following day.  Unfortunatly, between the two attacks, the situation on the ground had changed and the Russian ground forces had advanced the battle line by 100 kilometers.  When the P-38s attacked they tore into Russian ground forces as will as the Germans, killing a Russian three star General in the process.  A flight of Yaks was in the vacinity and they were called upon to attack the P-38s still busy making strafing runs.  The Yaks pounced on the P-38s and shot down two of the twin boom fighters.  Regrouping the P-38s broke off from their ground attacks and fought their way out of the area.  In the ensueing melee four Yaks were shot down and the remainder driven off with no further losses to the P-38s.  When the Americans advised the Russians of what happened, the Russians "promptly shot those involved on their end and demanded the same be done to the leader of the P-38s."  The P-38 leader, Colonel C. T. Edwinson, was "quietly and hastily re-assigned to a base out of Europe."
   
 
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Reply #5 - Aug 16th, 2004 at 1:55pm

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  Another tale of East meets West.......

  P-51s vs. La-7s:  This tale involves the Allies top scoring ace, Ivan Kozhedub, noless.  In April 1945 Kozhedub came to the aid of an American B-17 that was being attacked by two German fighters.  Kozhedub managed to chase away the Germans but then he came under attack by a formation of "unfamiliar" fighters.  Kozhedub engaged the on coming aircraft and shot down two of them before he noticed "the blue and white stars on the wings and fuselage of his 'enemy'.  Kozhedub returned to base extremely upset, certain that his actions would result in a major row with the allies.  Fortunately, one of the American pilots managed to bale out, (he was recovered by Russian ground forces), and when he was asked who shot him down, he replied 'a Focke-Wulf with a red nose'."  Kozhedub's commanding officer "gave Kozhedub the gun camera film confirming his two Mustang kills, along with the admonition, 'Keep this to yourself-show no one'."
  Kozhedub was never credited for downing the two Mustangs.
 
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Reply #6 - Aug 17th, 2004 at 9:45am

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In Erich Hartmann's biography, he states that towards the last days of the war, he evaded combat by attacking some US planes, as he was being jumped by Russians ... pretty soon the Russians and US were fighting each other and Hartmann got away.

 

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Reply #7 - Aug 17th, 2004 at 10:47am
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Reply #8 - Aug 17th, 2004 at 4:42pm

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Quote:
In Erich Hartmann's biography, he states that towards the last days of the war, he evaded combat by attacking some US planes, as he was being jumped by Russians ... pretty soon the Russians and US were fighting each other and Hartmann got away.


  Does anyone know the make of the aircraft involved in this incident?
 
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Reply #9 - Aug 18th, 2004 at 6:59am
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Hartmann probably flew a Bf 109K-4 or G-10.
 
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Reply #10 - Aug 18th, 2004 at 10:14pm

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  And now for something completely different........

  B-17 Flying Fortress vs. H6K "Mavis" flying boat:  What can only be described as the most unusual dogfight of World War 2 occured in the skies over the South Pacific.  On October 23, 1942 an Army Air Corps B-17, on patrol from Espirito Santo, "came to the aid of a PBY that was being attacked by a H6K 'Mavis' flying boat of the Imperial Japanese Navy."  The B-17 dove on the H6K, but soon both aircraft entered a rain squall.  Emerging from the squall at low altitude the two aircraft found themselves flying a beam of each other only fifty feet apart.  "Immediately every gun on both aircraft began firing in a broadside exchange reminiscent of the age old sailing ship battles.  Thousands of bullets criss-crossed the narrow spread of air" between the two large aircraft.  Twisting and turning, in and out of rain squalls, the two aircraft flailed away at each other for 45 minutes.  The "Mavis" kept very close to the wave tops to protect its vulnerable under belly while the B-17 made tight turns to stay inside the H6K and avoid being hit by the tail gun of the Japanese flying boat.  "Finally, the 'Mavis' began smoking, and dropped into the sea, exploding in a large ball of flame."  The B-17 came away from the battle with holes in its fuselage and wings, a damaged engine and two injured crew members.      
 
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Reply #11 - Aug 19th, 2004 at 5:22am
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Quote:
Immediately every gun on both aircraft began firing in a broadside exchange reminiscent of the age old sailing ship battles.


OMG just imagine seeing that... Shocked
 
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Reply #12 - Aug 19th, 2004 at 5:47am

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Quote:
 And now for something completely different........

From the sublime to the ridiculous. At the Chailey air show I attended a week ago they renacted an encounter between an L-4 Grasshopper (Piper Cub) & a Fieseler Storch. The L-4 crew had spotted the Storch & decided to attack it. The pilot flew alongside it while his observer opened fire with his service pistol. The Storch was actually forced down & crash landed but I think the pilot escaped unhurt. This was the only known incidence of air-to-air combat with pistols during WWII.

PS. Quote:
The Fieseler Storch was the last dogfight victim of the western front in the Second World War to be shot down by an American aircraft.  Whilst circling on a reconnaissance mission, it was spotted by a L4 Grasshopper (Piper Cub) looking for ground targets.  The Cub's crew opened fire with their hand pistols on the Storch and it spiralled to a safe landing on the ground.  Apart from being the last Luftwaffe aeroplane lost in the war, the Storch was also the only enemy aeroplane downed by pistol fire during the war.

http://www.historicaircraftcollection.ltd.uk/hac_storch_cub.html
« Last Edit: Aug 19th, 2004 at 8:19am by Hagar »  

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Reply #13 - Aug 19th, 2004 at 10:02pm

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Quote:
  At the Chailey air show I attended a week ago they renacted an encounter between an L-4 Grasshopper (Piper Cub) & a Fieseler Storch. The L-4 crew had spotted the Storch & decided to attack it....


  Talk about a battle of the fly weights!!
 
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Reply #14 - Aug 19th, 2004 at 10:24pm

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Reply #15 - Aug 20th, 2004 at 2:17am

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  When the Dread Pirate started this thread he wanted to know about "intertheater matchups...a Spitfire and a Zero".  Well, in actuality, that premise isn't as farfetched as it sounds.  While we tend to associate the Spitfire with their valiant stand over the British Isles during the Battle of Britian and epic fighter sweeps across the channel, the Spitfire saw action in almost every front of World War 2.  So combat between Spitfires and Japanese aircraft weren't very "intertheater"......

  Spitfires vs. Ki-43s and Ki-44s:  In the Far East (Burma) a "period of relative calm ended on February 6, 1944 when Japanese troops launched a major offensive in the Arakan area.  The attackers used the well-tried tactic of infiltrating forces through the jungle to get behind the Allied positions, thus severing their supply routes and forcing the Allied troops to pull back.  But this time a new counter tactic would be used."  Relying on the new Spitfire (Mk. VIIIs) to establish air superiority over the battle area, the cut off Allied troops at Sinzweya were ordered to stand firm, "they would be supplies from the air by C-47s and C-46s until they could be relieved."
  Three Spitfire VIII units, No.67, No.81 and No.152 moved to the forward airfield at Ramu, close to the Indian-Burmese border.  "The arrival of these units changed the air situation completely.  The Spitfire Mk. V had been about equal in performance to the best Japanese fighter in the theater, the Nakajima Ki-44 'Tojo'.  However, the Spitfire Mk. VIII had a speed advantage of 40 mph over the Ki-44, and 90 mph over the more numerous Nakajima Ki-43 II 'Oscar'.  The Spitfires inflicted such heavy losses on the JAAF that after a few days the latter ceased operations over the battle area, and the airlift proceeded unhindered."
 
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Reply #16 - Aug 22nd, 2004 at 8:49pm

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Quote:
From the sublime to the ridiculous. At the Chailey air show I attended a week ago they renacted an encounter between an L-4 Grasshopper (Piper Cub) & a Fieseler Storch. The L-4 crew had spotted the Storch & decided to attack it. The pilot flew alongside it while his observer opened fire with his service pistol. The Storch was actually forced down & crash landed but I think the pilot escaped unhurt. This was the only known incidence of air-to-air combat with pistols during WWII.

PS.
http://www.historicaircraftcollection.ltd.uk/hac_storch_cub.html


Did he get credit for a kill?
 

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Reply #17 - Aug 23rd, 2004 at 3:03am

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Quote:
Did he get credit for a kill?

I have no idea. This was the first I'd heard of the incident. From what I can make out it's referred to in "The Last Battle" by Cornelius Ryan. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684803291?v=glance
There is also a limited edition print available entitled "Duel in the Sun". http://www.historicaviation.com/historicaviation/product_info.po;jsessionid=hQ09...
Quote:
Lt.s Francies and Martin in their L-4B Piper Cub shoot down a Fieseler Fi 156 "Storch" and record the final air-to-air shots between Americans and Germans in WWII.

Apparently they did more than force the Storch down. They landed & took the crew prisoner. There would be no room for extra passengers in the L-4 so I can only assume there were Allied forces nearby.
 

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Reply #18 - Aug 23rd, 2004 at 11:45pm

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I've read that book, but it's been a while.  I don't seem to remember Ryan mentioning it.  Excellent book though.  All of Ryan's books are...  Wink
 

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Reply #19 - Aug 24th, 2004 at 5:16am

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I've been told it's on pp.310-312 of Cornelius Ryan's "The Last Battle" (photo page 190). I don't have the book & haven't read it.
 

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Reply #20 - Aug 24th, 2004 at 3:51pm

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Speaking of Corsair VS. BF-109 have any had mock dogfights in recent years at airshows etc? Are there any good websites that cover warbirds as far as pairing up planes in mock battles and listing results?

Jim
 

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Reply #21 - Aug 24th, 2004 at 4:02pm

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Quote:
Speaking of Corsair VS. BF-109 have any had mock dogfights in recent years at airshows etc? Are there any good websites that cover warbirds as far as pairing up planes in mock battles and listing results?

Jim


There were pilots that flew almost every type of airplane - allied and axis - and wrote the results of their tests, but specific matchups ... ??

I guess the "best" arbiter these days of this type of discussion would be the programmed performance in the massively multiplayer online games, like Warbirds and Aces High, where the developers have programmed "realistic" performance into their models.

My take on the 109 vs Corsair would be that it would depend on the model (a late 109K would eat up an F4U-1, where an F4U-4 could overpower an Me109E).  I think it would be a relatively even match, with one type's weaknesses offset by its strengths.  Ultimately, it would depend on the pilot and the circumstances -  Catch an F4U-1D low and slow, with no E, and even a slower Ki-43 Hayausa/Oscar will plink it to death!
 

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Reply #22 - Aug 24th, 2004 at 5:27pm

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Quote:
Speaking of Corsair VS. BF-109 have any had mock dogfights in recent years at airshows etc? Are there any good websites that cover warbirds as far as pairing up planes in mock battles and listing results?

Jim

I could be wrong but sadly I don't think there are any genuine Bf 109s of any designation flying right now. There are a few examples of the Hispano Buchon - the Spanish-built Bf 109G variant. This has a Merlin engine & might not be a fair comparison with the original. I don't know how they go on in the US but over here they would be considered too valuable to risk in a mock dogfight.
 

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Reply #23 - Aug 24th, 2004 at 5:55pm

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If you consider that the later 109s were more or less even with the Mustangs in dogfighting capabilities, you can look to the 1968 "Soccer War" between Honduras and El Salvador for the last great air combats between the classic piston engined fighters.
 

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Reply #24 - Aug 24th, 2004 at 8:29pm

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Quote:
Speaking of Corsair VS. BF-109 have any had mock dogfights in recent years at airshows etc? Are there any good websites that cover warbirds as far as pairing up planes in mock battles and listing results?

Jim


Jim and the Dread Pirate,
  I don't know of a website, but how about a book....

   "Duels in the Sky" by Captain Eric M. Brown, RN.

  The book list hypothetical combats between various aircraft used in World War 2 and what their out comes may have been.
  Check out this websit for more info and reviews:  www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0870210637/102-4319949-4752951

 
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