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Installers. Do you need them? (Read 899 times)
Apr 17th, 2004 at 1:30am

JVC_systems   Offline
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I was always wondering. Very often I see FS2004 freeware add-ons with installers. So instead of unziping a file, you have to install it just a like you would a program or a software. I was always wondering what is the whole point of it. Isn't that just a waste of authors time? I heared som people say installers for freeware add-on files for FS are so that it would be easier to install a file but it really isn't because you have to intall it into a temporary folder first to make sure everything install properly and does scater all over FS2004 aircraft folder. A friend of mine told me that those installers serve no purpose. All they do is fill your windows regestry with junk thus making your computer slow and full of spyware. I don't know for sure if it true or not but I always wondered about that too. What is the real purpose of those installers and why do authors put them into their freeware add-on files ???? Any ideas?
 
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Reply #1 - Apr 17th, 2004 at 1:37am

BFMF   Offline
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You got me Roll Eyes

Personally, I don't trust autoinstallers at all. I usually install to a temperary directory, zip it into a .zip file, and then uninstall it. I then stick the .zip file away in a safe place to burn onto CD Wink
 
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Reply #2 - Apr 17th, 2004 at 3:19am

pete   Offline
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I completely agree. No point in them & I would prefer if all authors simply zipped up the add-on like most.

You are right to extract these to a temp folder 1st to make sure everything is OK & have the install under your control - many don't.

Though I would be surprised if add-ons contained spyware (I have never ecountered this, afaik) you are also right that these .exe files make entries to your registry & windows Start program which do make things untidy &, IMHO, outweigh any benefit the self extracting file was meant to give.  8)

 

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Reply #3 - Apr 17th, 2004 at 6:46am

congo   Offline
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Theoretically, Installers are the way to go, just click and VOILA!, you have your plane ready to fly.

Unfortunately, many authors have used installers in the past, with default directories as the path for the installation, with no user definable options to change those paths.

This wreaked havoc with the experienced PC user, who often, and rightly so, uses non default directories for their software installations.

I can only assume that these authors were either ignorant (which I doubt), or thought, "Hey, the experienced use will sort it out. The reason I'm using an installer is to make it simple for the average user."

But, often it's not an easy matter to sort it out, confusion reigned, and distrust of installers, (rightly so), becomes an obvious side effect.

Long time simmers will have noticed that the quality, ie. reliability, of downloads and installation software has improved over time, with most installers now allowing the designation of installation paths.

It is not, however, to be taken for granted that the authors of addons have got it right every time, so the discerning simmer still installs to a temp. directory to be safe. This is unfortunate, but inevitable, due to care and mistrust.

I am particularly vigilant about what gets installed on my pc. If an aircraft uses an installer that registers an addon into the registry of my PC, I load it to an Temp. directory and copy that to another folder, then use control panel to unregister that addon as it installed. I then replace it with the unregistered copy.

This is really a pain in the Watusi..... and sometimes involves some real file handling contortions, but like so much other garbage that gets put on our PC's, it's really just a part of computing life.

I have developed an addon for CFS2 which would benefit greatly from an installer. I haven't made one simply because I wouldn't trust one myself, and I don't expect anyone else to either.

This isn't because I think I would Muff it up, it's because I think it's a waste of time, because most users will prefer to install manually because of the reasons above.

Again, this is a shame, it would make the process of adding an addon so much easier, and even possible for the newbie.

As far as spyware, yes it's possible, but so far we have been spared this imposition for the most part, particularly with freeware addons.
 

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Reply #4 - Apr 17th, 2004 at 8:18am

Stratobat   Offline
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I'll be honest, it takes me less time to copy the contents of a zip file into the right directory as apposed to using an installer!

Just me 2 cents worth Tongue

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Stratobat
 

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Reply #5 - Apr 17th, 2004 at 8:34am

Hagar   Offline
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Much as I dislike the idea myself I have configured my own complex files (CFS campaigns) as "auto-install" due to their popularity in the CFS community. These are simple self-extracting zipfiles (an extra feature of any registered version of WinZip). They are standalone executable (EXE) files which add nothing to the Windows Registry. I set them up to "install" to the default location of the main directory folder of whichever sim they're intended for but the extract path can easily be redirected to any location you wish. I'm also very careful not to modify/overwrite default files. Self-extracting zipfiles can be extracted (right-click WinZip "Extract to folder......." option) & manually installed in the usual way by experienced users.

I ALWAYS personally check a new "auto-install" on a fresh install of the sim before uploading anything for general use. I ask trusted beta testers to do the same. If a developer is not prepared to do this every time they configure one of these things they shouldn't be doing it. IMHO

PS. I'm just waiting for RollerBall to spot this thread. You will be left in no doubt of his opinion. My advice is the same as his will be. If you don't trust the person who configured the file implicitly, don't risk it - even if it means not having the addon. I would never use them myself. It's much better, just as quick & easier in the long run to learn how to install the stuff properly. This is not difficult. If everyone took a few minutes to learn how it's done there would be no need for "auto-installers" at all. Roll Eyes
 

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Reply #6 - Apr 17th, 2004 at 11:26am

Spidious   Offline
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I do not really like the planes that have the auto installer...

But I do like using the Airplanes Installer v3.7  by Rene Konrad
{Just run a search for the name Airplanes Installer in the Library Files}

Not only does it install everything in the correct place with just a few clicks of the mouse button. It will uninstall the plane even faster if you decide you so not like it. Plus it has photos of the plane on the installer, just in case like me you forget what all those title/numbers are for which airplane...
 

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Reply #7 - Apr 17th, 2004 at 11:45am

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
But I do like using the Airplanes Installer v3.7  by Rene Konrad
{Just run a search for the name Airplanes Installer in the Library Files}

Not only does it install everything in the correct place with just a few clicks of the mouse button. It will uninstall the plane even faster if you decide you so not like it. Plus it has photos of the plane on the installer, just in case like me you forget what all those title/numbers are for which airplane...

I'll take your word for that Spidious old chap. With the different methods used to configure files I can't see how it can possibly work perfectly every time. I still think a few minutes spent learning where everything goes is much more sensible. It's also easier to troubleshoot problems if you installed the files yourself.

If I had relied on auto-install files & installer utilities when I first started in this hobby I would have missed out on so much. I've learned a great deal about my PC that I would never have learned in any other way. I can now teach people how things are done instead of asking questions. Messing around creating my own aircraft & scenery has given me a lot of pleasure over the last 5 years. I've helped countless others do the same. Without all this I would most likely have lost interest in the M$ sims long ago & wouldn't be posting in this forum.
 

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Reply #8 - Apr 17th, 2004 at 11:56am
RollerBall   Ex Member

 
Quote:
PS. I'm just waiting for RollerBall to spot this thread. You will be left in no doubt of his opinion.


I wsn't gonna add to the thread because Doug gives excellent advice but in the end I couldn't help it!

I think probably everyone who's used installers has at some time been made to suffer a disaster as a result and there's just no need for them in my view. Mostly it's just people trying to be smartipants - and half the time they end up showing they don't really know what they're doing at all.

I'd trust anything that Doug had made implicitly - but anything else I'd rather not have if I can't install it my way. Life's just too short to keep sorting out problems that other people have made for you and there are plenty of truly great aircraft out there that don't end up knackering your PC config and/or your harddrive and filling your Windows registry full of junk.

BTW if you want to see a REAL installer disaster - take a look at the I3DTeam.com B1. For some reason they think that simmers can't install anything - and as a result end up ruining the results of their work that must have taken months to do. All they needed to do was zip the **** thing up, upload it and wait for the applause. But no, too easy.

It's the only aircraft I've ever come across where running the DE-INSTALLERS (note - plural ) crashes your PC ??? If they think that after experiences like that people will go for future payware from them, well......crazy or what Shocked

Sorry you I3D guys - but it was your own fault.There have been enough discussions here and elsewhere about installers so you should have paid attention!

Roger
 
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Reply #9 - Apr 17th, 2004 at 12:19pm

Stratobat   Offline
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Quote:
Mostly it's just people trying to be smartipants


RollerBall,

I think you hit the nail on the head with that one Smiley

Regards,
Stratobat
 

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Reply #10 - Apr 17th, 2004 at 12:42pm

Hagar   Offline
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I forgot to mention the many talented people I've met & had the pleasure of working with over the last 5 years. Some whom I've never worked with but greatly respect & admire are RollerBall (Roger) & my new friend Stratobat. Wink

Quote:
Mostly it's just people trying to be smartipants - and half the time they end up showing they don't really know what they're doing at all.

I couldn't agree more. The installation instructions included with many ordinary zipfiles make me wince. This proves to me that many people uploading files have very little idea of the best way of installing anything. I can't imagine what would happen if they configure their files to "auto-install". Shocked

One of the auto-installer utilities commonly used to configure FS addons has an Uninstall feature that is set up as default. If the developer forgets to disable this option when configuring the files I suspect it could cause many problems. It creates an Uninstall icon somewhere in the FS directory & adds an entry to the Windows Registry. I've come across them many times when checking out files but never dared try it myself. I always delete the Uninstall icon & remove it from the Registry. I have visions of it uninstalling most of the sim with it if anyone happens to click on the Uninstall icon to remove the addon. So be warned. Roll Eyes
 

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Reply #11 - Apr 17th, 2004 at 1:03pm

Stratobat   Offline
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Quote:
I forgot to mention the many talented people I've met & had the pleasure of working with over the last 5 years. Some whom I've never worked with but greatly respect & admire are RollerBall (Roger) & my new friend Stratobat. Wink


Thanks, Hagar Grin

Regards,
Stratobat
 

...&&&&'If the literal sense makes good sense, seek no other sense lest you come up with nonsense'
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Reply #12 - Apr 17th, 2004 at 4:28pm

SilverFox441   Offline
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I've considered using installers on a few projects, they do "look" a bit more slick and professional.

Then I considered the number of times I've answered questions about where stuff should go and how it should be properly installed. I came to the realization that I'd be shortchanging the enduser, newbies wouldn't learn from the experience and experienced users may be put of.

Now I'm thinking more of better constructed .zip files and better written readme's. Smiley
 

Steve (Silver Fox) Daly
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Reply #13 - Apr 17th, 2004 at 4:46pm
RollerBall   Ex Member

 
Silver - you have my vote and total support Cheesy
 
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Reply #14 - Apr 17th, 2004 at 5:20pm
Bazza   Ex Member

 
A very interesting thread containing a lot of good advice.

I personally do all my installations the way I learned from the start and avoid the installation programs.

I think SilverFox made a good point when he mentioned better ReadMe files - on many occasions I have wished that the guy who made such a brilliant job of designing the download had just spent a few more minutes over his ReadMe.txt files.     Some of them assume the recipient of the work has a far greater knowledge of the procedures than they may actually have.    After the first
1000 downloads (LOL) it becomes easy but everyone has to start from scratch...
 
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