Simviation Forum - Pilots and Alcohol

Reply #15 - Dec 22^nd, 2003 at 4:20am

Politically Incorrect Offline
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I agree that since he knew he was to be flying soon that he should have never had that first drink.
I don't care what kind of stress anyone is under it doesn't justify the fact that he was (supposidly) drinking before flight.
If I'm not mistaken the FAA says your not allowed to have been under the influance of anything within 8 hours of flying.
I think that should be looked into, because the way I used to drink there were many times that even 8 hours after my last one I was still feeling the effects.
Not to mention flying with a hangover, that can't be safe either, can it? I wouldn't know because i started flying after sobering up. Not to mention i never stayed sober long enough to experiance a hangover.

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Reply #16 - Dec 22^nd, 2003 at 4:21am

Craig. Offline
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Hi Ottol.
I can understand the whole stressful part, but in my case i dont touch alcohol no matter how stressed i get, i know in some peoples cases they do, but still. Its just a shame some pilots dont see sense in that case and perhaps call in sick or however it works whenever they've had to much

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Reply #17 - Dec 22^nd, 2003 at 4:30am

Hagar Offline
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RAF fighter pilots used to fly when drunk or at least with a heavy hangover during the BoB & most likely throughout WWII. You couldn't really blame them for getting paralytic every night could you? They used to reckon a good whiff of oxygen when they got in the cockpit sobered them up PDQ. That was wartime in a desperate situation. Those guys never knew from one sortie to the next if they would return, & many didn't.

That was then & this is now. The situation is completely different. I feel there are no excuses for any civil pilot, commercial or private, being in command of an aircraft after consuming alcohol.

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Reply #18 - Dec 22^nd, 2003 at 11:23am

OTTOL Offline
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I know that my post was a bit long winded Embarrassed

but let me restate.

I'm not making excuses for the guy, I think he's an idiot that blew an opportunity of a lifetime. I'm just trying to paint a picture from the pilot's perspective, and how someone might do something like this in the first place.
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Then again if these guys wanna waste their chances there are tons of people including me who would take that opportunity for pennies really.

Be VERY careful with offers like this Craig. I say that as a helpful pointer to someone who wants to spend a career in aviation, not a threat or warning. As a professional pilot I have seen many people (myself included) that have "offered to sell their souls". As you gain more experience in the profession, you will realize that this is neither safe to operation, or the industry's pay scale. I'll be the first to admit that greed is a primary motivating factor. The idea of someone coming in and doing your job for half the price is disconcerting to say the least. BUT....pilots don't just jump into the left seat, and start making $150,000 a year. Just like Doctors (another high dollar, highly scrutinized profession) we spend many years making very little money in the hope that we may one day make "the big bucks". I took a $20,000 a year pay DROP when I closed my toolbox and decided to start flying airplanes full time. The other big factor is safety. As long as there are inexperienced pilots willing to give up their services for "peanuts", there will be some ignorant operators willing to take them up on it. Check out the recently released NTSB report on the Kingair 100 crash that killed Senator Paul Wellstone. "Crew inexperience......failure to maintain adequate airspeed....." are pasted throughout the report. This report sums up perfectly what I mean.

.....so I loaded up the plane and moved to Middle-EEEE..........OIL..that is......

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Reply #19 - Dec 22^nd, 2003 at 11:35am

Craig. Offline
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lol
What i meant was with full training and experiance i would have the job, i know it takes alot to get there, as i have been finding out, its prob harder to become a professional pilot than perhaps most other jobs. And with the way job security is, you gotta take any opportunity for a job as you can. I do understand a junior first officer cant replace a senior captain, but lets face it, there are tons of captains out there who have been layed off thanks to the downturn who will gladly take that guys job if offered.

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Reply #20 - Dec 22^nd, 2003 at 12:28pm

Hagar Offline
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OTTOL knows far more on this subject than me as I was never a commercial pilot. However, I'm not sure the seniority or experience of the pilot has anything to do with it. Everyone knows the rules & the fact that a senior captain of a major airline is accused of this only makes it worse by drawing the reputation of the whole industry to the attention of the media.

In my view, anyone responsible for the lives of paying passengers, not to mention their own colleagues or innocent members of the public, accepts certain responsibilities. This applies to a bus or train driver as much as an airline pilot. One of the rules of any of these occupations/professions is that they should not be under the influence of alcohol or any other drug while doing their job. If they cannot obey this rule they are not suitable for the job. This seems quite straightforward to me.

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Reply #21 - Dec 22^nd, 2003 at 5:08pm

OTTOL Offline
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Good to see that you have a sense of humor about it Craig. Again, I meant it as point of guidance, not a rant. Where this DOES take place though, is AT the junior levels, with guys that are trying to "time build". We have chased guys out of our FBO, offering right seat time in their light twin, and then stating " ....He just has to pay me $100 per/hour. " I have seen a lot of people and companies in the past that see dollar signs in the form of a young pilot, hungry for multi time. This does two things: gives that company a free employee, and takes food out of someone else's mouth. There is a "flip side" to that coin though. Companies like Gulfstream here in Fort Lauderdale that offer a "First Officer" program, become well known. .........and not in a good light! These guys are "pimps" in the aviation business and anyone who participates in the program is black listed.
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Everyone knows the rules & the fact that a senior captain of a major airline is accused of this only makes it worse by drawing the reputation of the whole industry to the attention of the media.

that's exactly the point that I have been trying to make to my colleagues here, but which, unfortunately, seems to fall on def ears. How the media portray the industry, is just as big a factor in it's well being as what the economy does. I haven't even read the specifics on THIS particular incident, but is seems that recent cases have been pilots that were "hungover" as opposed to tipping a few and THEN getting on an airplane. Take Frentnstuf's entire post, and that echoes my personal take on the "down time" required from bottle to throttle. Eight hours is the FAA minimum but how you feel is a better measure than any breathalizer. Obviously, this rule applies to time needed BEYOND the eight hours NOT some attempt to short change that eight hour number.

.....so I loaded up the plane and moved to Middle-EEEE..........OIL..that is......

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Reply #22 - Dec 22^nd, 2003 at 5:15pm

Craig. Offline
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lol. I was wondering what your thoughts on the Delta connection academy are Ottol, i am looking at maybe learning to fly with them should i move over there, but its alot of money they are asking for, if its worth the money then maybe. but if they are no good then pointless

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Reply #23 - Dec 22^nd, 2003 at 8:20pm

OTTOL Offline
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basic rule of thumb: Don't pay to fly airplanes when you should be receiving pay. Try to stay away from any program that touts "First Officer Program, or Commuter placement guarantee." Either go to a 141 school, and time build afterwards. Or go to a college affiliated school. ie: Embry Riddle. Even if you go to Riddle, you will still have to time build, but I believe riddle has a legitimate placement program. I went to a local pt141 school, and then built time as a CFI. My instructor was a Riddle grad. Basically, no matter where you go, you'll have to time build.
In deciding which route to take, A school like Riddle will be very expensive, but have the newest training techniques and equipment, or if you want to keep it short and simple, just go to a local school. If you plan to fly for an airline though, Riddle is probably the biggest boost you can get, initially, in that direction.

.....so I loaded up the plane and moved to Middle-EEEE..........OIL..that is......

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Reply #24 - Dec 23^rd, 2003 at 5:07am

IanR Offline
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Hagar's last post sums this situation up exactly as I see it. No 'ifs' or 'buts' - the responsibility demands and must get responsible people.

Regards to all

IanR - Scotland UK

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