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The Camera Stole My Soul!! (Read 755 times)
Oct 15
th
, 2003 at 7:53pm
Iroquois
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Colonel
Happy Halloween
Ontario Canada
Gender:
Posts: 3244
You've stolen my Soul!!! Or so it would seem to one Ontario man when he went to get his drivers licence.
I'm not here to make any comments on religion but I think this is funny. This is just one of thoes bizzar cases that pops up in the courts every so often.
Quote:
Government doing devil's work, says Ontario farmer who fears licence photo
JAMES MCCARTEN
Canadian Press
Wednesday, October 15, 2003
TORONTO -- A farmer and fundamentalist Christian who's convinced that digital driver's licence photos are the work of the devil is taking the Ontario government to court to avoid having his picture taken.
George Bothwell, 57, cradled a gilt-edged King James Bible on his lap and stared at the floor during a news conference Wednesday as he tried to explain why he doesn't want anyone taking digital photos of his face.
"This technology will allow central control over people's behaviour, which the Bible warns us against," said Bothwell, clad in a tweed jacket with the cuffs of his jeans tucked inside black cowboy boots.
"Ethical and moral control is to come from within the individual, not to be imposed from the outside. It is to be voluntary, not something that is involuntary. It has to come from the heart."
Bothwell believes that biometrics - the use of physical identifiers such as fingerprints, retina scans and face recognition - is specifically cited in the book of Revelations as the work of agents of the devil.
He believes that anyone who allows their image to be archived by an outside agency bears "the mark of the beast" and will "drink the wine of the wrath of God" as a result.
But he needs a driver's licence to operate his organic farm and liquid manure spreading business in Owen Sound, Ont., 150 kilometres northwest of Toronto, and wants the Ministry of Transportation to exempt him from the photo requirement on the grounds it's against his religion.
Lawyer Clayton Ruby, who filed an application for a judicial review of Bothwell's case late last month in Superior Court, is convinced he has a case.
While the ministry does allow drivers to apply for a religious exemption, it requires that the religion be held by a "congregation" with a leader who can vouch for its beliefs in writing - a requirement Ruby believes is unconstitutional.
"It is no business of government to be judging the truth or the popularity of a religious belief by requiring that more than one person has to hold it and that you have to prove that it's held by an entire congregation," he said.
"George doesn't have a congregation; he doesn't have a religious leader other than Jesus Christ, whom, as he points out, is not about to write a letter of support for him to the Ontario government."
Bothwell first took to the road in 1962 with a licence that allowed him to drive commercial trucks. When the province introduced photo cards in the late 1986, he was allowed to provide a Polaroid, which he still has on the licence he carries in his wallet.
But in 1997, after the Ministry of Transportation introduced one-piece licences, Bothwell refused to have his picture taken and spent the next several years trying to get an exemption from the ministry.
His application was finally denied late last year.
The ministry exercises strict control over its photo database, said spokesman Bob Nichols. The only time they're ever used for anything else is as evidence in a court proceeding, he said.
"We're like every other jurisdiction in North America; we think there's a sound, legitimate reason for requiring a photo on a driver's licence," Nichols said.
"They're used by police, by us and other driver licensing authorities as a quick, accurate means of identification."
Nichols refused to discuss Bothwell's case in particular because it's before the courts. None of Ontario's 8.3 million licensed drivers have ever been granted a religious exemption, he noted.
"We're always balancing needs, in this case the need for the safety and security of a photo requirement, as well as ensuring that all drivers are treated fairly, with dignity and respect," Nichols said.
Ruby said he's not concerned about his client's credibility.
"I don't think anyone will dismiss him as a wingnut, because these views are widely held; they are held by a number of organized religions," he said.
"It's the Canadian way that we say that government has no right in intruding in deciding what is a valid religion, what will be an approved religion and what will not."
For his part, Bothwell conceded during Wednesday's news conference he was "uncomfortable" being surrounded by an array of digital cameras and recorders.
But he insisted his beliefs are well-founded, particularly in an era when biometrics and the privacy concerns they raise are a hotly debated topic in Canada and elsewhere.
Ruby expects the case to be heard early in the new year.
Smart-card technology that uses biometric information has been talked about for years by the Ontario government. And the idea of using biometrics on passports, permanent resident cards and Ottawa's much talked about national identity card has sparked national debate.
© Copyright 2003 The Canadian Press
I only pretend to know what I'm talking about. Heck, that's what lawyers, car mechanics, and IT professionals do everyday.
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Reply #1 -
Oct 15
th
, 2003 at 7:58pm
Paz
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Colonel
USA
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Posts: 1922
Man! People find the most ridiculous things to make a big deal out of, don't these people have anything better to do with their time?
&&Still no linked images allowed around here Paz! Naughty...&&
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Reply #2 -
Oct 15
th
, 2003 at 8:20pm
WebbPA
Ex Member
I Like Flight Simulation!
They say you can use the Bible to prove (or disprove) anything. I guess you can.
What happened to the good old days when the Bible just proved that the earth was flat and the center of the universe.
And why is a digital picture different from an analog picture? Light waves reflect from the subject and are stored in a digital memory device or a light-sensitive piece of paper.
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Reply #3 -
Oct 15
th
, 2003 at 11:45pm
BFMF
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Colonel
Pacific Northwest
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Posts: 19820
Quote:
And why is a digital picture different from an analog picture? Light waves reflect from the subject and are stored in a digital memory device or a light-sensitive piece of paper.
Not only that, but you can still take an analog photo and make it a digital picture simply by scanning it
Remember that Arabic lady who migrated here to the US but got upset and refused to take her veil off to get her driver's license? Her argument was that it's against her religion.
My argument was this. Even American women who go over to their countries are forced to where those black veils, why should our country make exeptions if they won't?
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Reply #4 -
Oct 16
th
, 2003 at 5:04am
Hagar
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Colonel
My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica
Posts: 33159
I'm afraid this is all too typical of the society we live in. If this guy wins his case it opens the way for all sorts of weirdos to bypass the system. Whatever the outcome, it's simply wasting court time, not to mention the expense. I can't imagine where it will all end.
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Reply #5 -
Oct 16
th
, 2003 at 10:47am
Iroquois
Offline
Colonel
Happy Halloween
Ontario Canada
Gender:
Posts: 3244
Quote:
Not only that, but you can still take an analog photo and make it a digital picture simply by scanning it
Remember that Arabic lady who migrated here to the US but got upset and refused to take her veil off to get her driver's license? Her argument was that it's against her religion.
My argument was this. Even American women who go over to their countries are forced to where those black veils, why should our country make exeptions if they won't?
We have the same problem here. If fact it's probably worse. Minority tolerance is a good thing, to a point. When people start pulling that card when they brake the law, that's where the line needs to be drawn. Just my two cents.
I only pretend to know what I'm talking about. Heck, that's what lawyers, car mechanics, and IT professionals do everyday.
&&The Rig: &&AMD Athlon XP2000+ Palomino, ECS K7S5A 3.1, 1GB PC2700 DDR, Geforce FX5200 128mb, SB Live Platinum, 16xDVD, 16x10x40x CDRW, 40/60gb 7200rpm HDD, 325w Power, Windows XP Home SP1, Directx 9.0c with 66.81 Beta gfx drivers
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Reply #6 -
Oct 16
th
, 2003 at 7:00pm
Sock
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Colonel
Satan is cool.
Hudson, NY USA
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Posts: 2098
Quote:
I'm afraid this is all too typical of the society we live in. If this guy wins his case it opens the way for all sorts of weirdos to bypass the system. Whatever the outcome, it's simply wasting court time, not to mention the expense. I can't imagine where it will all end.
But if he does lose, wouldn't some people be outraged? I don't know, just a few right wing Christians who may think the government was putting down their religion?
Maybe they don't matter.
Sock
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Reply #7 -
Oct 16
th
, 2003 at 7:28pm
Hagar
Offline
Colonel
My Spitfire Girl
Costa Geriatrica
Posts: 33159
The way I see it, a democratic society can only work if everyone in it agrees to obey the rules of the majority. If you deliberately break those rules it becomes anarchy. Maybe this is rather simplistic but in the 21st century all this fuss over a digital photo is ridiculous. IMHO
I'm sure there are far more important things to worry about.
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Reply #8 -
Oct 16
th
, 2003 at 7:38pm
WebbPA
Ex Member
I Like Flight Simulation!
I agree with Andrew. If you want to drive on a road that the government has paid for you have jump through the hoops - get a license, get insurance. If you object to the part of the licensing process is that requires a photo you have the option of not driving.
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Reply #9 -
Oct 16
th
, 2003 at 8:09pm
Katahu
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Colonel
Gender:
Posts: 6920
Why cause such a huge, un-needed fuss about the smallest things in life? Like a digital photo. OMG.
You people are correct. If you don't want your picture taken for a driver's liscense anything related to this, just don't drive.
In fact, there is a better, cheaper way to travel from point A to point B. GET A BIKE!!!!!!!!!
For this, you don't need a liscence that requires a picture. In fact, you don't need a liscence at all. Just a good helmet. And if you want to travel with a partner, get a bike that carries more than one rider. DUH!!!!!
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Reply #10 -
Oct 16
th
, 2003 at 8:37pm
WebbPA
Ex Member
I Like Flight Simulation!
We all seem to be reasonably intelligent people here.
Somewhere people are watching Oprah and Dr. Phil and are learning their PC left wing philosphies.
Somewhere there are lawyers who can't get real work and have to bring frivolous lawsuits like this.
Somewhere there are morons like this guy who have no concept of technology after 1900.
As I said earlier, you can prove anything with the Bible. Didn't Jesus say "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and render unto God what is God's"?. OK, he meant taxation, but he also meant follow the civil law unless it conflicts with God's law.
I've still never seen anything in the Bible that would tell me it's immoral or illegal to have my picture taken.
"Bothwell believes that biometrics - the use of physical identifiers such as fingerprints, retina scans and face recognition - is specifically cited in the book of Revelations as the work of agents of the devil. "
I'd like to see chapter and verse.
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Reply #11 -
Oct 16
th
, 2003 at 8:54pm
chomp_rock
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Colonel
I must confess, I was
born at a very early
age.
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What fools exist in this world!
AMD Athlon 64 3700+&&GeForce FX5200 256Mb&&1GB DDR400 DC&&Seagate 500Gb SATA-300 HDD&&Windows XP Professional X64 Edition
&&&&That's right, I'm now using an AMD! I decided to give them another try and they kicked the pants off of my P4 3.4!
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Reply #12 -
Oct 16
th
, 2003 at 9:04pm
Sock
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Colonel
Satan is cool.
Hudson, NY USA
Gender:
Posts: 2098
I doupt it says anything about fingerprints, retina scans and face recognition. People back then had no comprehention of those types of things. Maybe, if it is in there, they just meant... ??? Beets me, he's probably wrong.
And I don't think he wanted the licence to drive, but to operate farm stuff. I think...
Sock
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Reply #13 -
Oct 16
th
, 2003 at 9:15pm
Deputy
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Colonel
Hillsboro, Oregon
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Posts: 2090
Quote:
Man! People find the most ridiculous things to make a big deal out of, don't these people have anything better to do with their time?
Some people have nothing better to do. . .
Bad boys, bad boys, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when I come for you?&&&&
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&&
Justice for All
&&&&Women are: attractive, single, mentally stable. Pick two.&&
&&Yes, we drive on the right-hand-side of the road. Yes, I parked on the left-hand-side of the road. Yes, I blocked traffic for a picture. &&&&&&
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Reply #14 -
Oct 17
th
, 2003 at 3:59am
BFMF
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Colonel
Pacific Northwest
Gender:
Posts: 19820
Quote:
And I don't think he wanted the licence to drive, but to operate farm stuff. I think...
If he really doesn't want to get his photo taken, Why doesn't he just have a hired hand drive the machinery? Problem solved
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