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Fighter Armour (Read 433 times)
Sep 20th, 2003 at 8:29am

Professor Brensec   Offline
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I've just been doing some reading, mainly on the armaments of all the different Fighter aircraft in WWII.
I did however come across a section devoted to the different types and amounts of armour used and when it was introduced.

I wasn't too surprised to find that the Polikalov I-16 was the first fighter to have armour, albeit a single 8mm (5/16") plate behind the pilots headrest.

But to my utter surprise I learnt that all the Hurricanes and Spitfires that took part in the Battle of France (May - June '40), and this included basically the entire compliment in the RAF, had absolutely no armour at all.

Armour was hurriedly fitted (after a few lessons were learnt, I imagine) before the BoB got under way about a month or six weeks after the fall of France.

A very fortunate 6 week break for RAF pilots, I dare say.  Grin Wink
 

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Reply #1 - Sep 20th, 2003 at 8:43am

Ivan   Offline
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Il-2 was a flying collection of armour plating... the armour wasn't fitted afterwards, but included by design.
 

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Reply #2 - Sep 20th, 2003 at 11:47am

HawkerTempest5   Offline
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Quote:
But to my utter surprise I learnt that all the Hurricanes and Spitfires that took part in the Battle of France (May - June '40), and this included basically the entire compliment in the RAF, had absolutely no armour at all.

Armour was hurriedly fitted (after a few lessons were learnt, I imagine) before the BoB got under way about a month or six weeks after the fall of France.

A very fortunate 6 week break for RAF pilots, I dare say.  Grin Wink


I guess when they built the early Spits and Hurries they never really gave thick armour plate much thought. I'm sure the weight penalty was a factor also.
You can tell the Spits with armour because they have a flat windscreen. Look at a PR Spit and the screen (un-armoured) is a nice curved shape.
I think it's true also that the Japaneese didn't fit much, if any, armour to some fighters in order to keep down weight and improve performance. They paid the price for that omission.
 

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Reply #3 - Sep 20th, 2003 at 12:40pm

Hagar   Offline
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Ah, this reminds me. Wandering off-topic again. LOL

I remember we were discussing the canopy of the prototype Spitfire some time ago. I took this photo of the replica prototype at the Tangmere musem specially for my old pal Brensec. It was built from original drawings under the supervision of Jeffrey Quill, Supermarine's chief test pilot throughout WWII. I'm told it's an accurate representation of the actual aircraft.

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Reply #4 - Sep 20th, 2003 at 3:27pm

ozzy72   Offline
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Lovely shots Doug, you could have let me know you had them! I haven't managed to crawl to Tangmere yet Cry And yes she is v.accurate. The paint was taken from a model painted with the same paint they did the K5054 that belonged to Gordon Mitchell (RJs son).
For more info check http://www.supermarine-spitfire.co.uk/k5054.html
With the Hurris and Spits not having armour, well the story goes that some US pilots who joined the RAF insisted on having some bolted behind their seats as an unofficial modification, and it seemed to work rather well, as the American pilots kept getting home.
As for the armoured windscreens, the head of Fighter Command (I can't remember his name at the min.) was arguing with the Air Ministry that they needed them, and the pencil necks were saying "Its too expensive", so his parting shot was "If its good enough for Chicago gangsters, its good enough for my pilots". Needless to say he got his way. Thank goodness Smiley

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Reply #5 - Sep 20th, 2003 at 3:45pm

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
Lovely shots Doug, you could have let me know you had them! I haven't managed to crawl to Tangmere yet Cry

Oops, sorry. I didn't think with all your Spitfire resources you would be interested. I only took those pics recently. Been waiting for a chance to post them.

Quote:
As for the armoured windscreens, the head of Fighter Command (I can't remember his name at the min.) was arguing with the Air Ministry that they needed them, and the pencil necks were saying "Its too expensive", so his parting shot was "If its good enough for Chicago gangsters, its good enough for my pilots". Needless to say he got his way. Thank goodness Smiley

I think that would have been Air Chief Marshall Hugh "Stuffy" Dowding.
 

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Reply #6 - Sep 20th, 2003 at 4:15pm

Woodlouse2002   Offline
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I think in hendon there is a windscreen taken from a spitfire with a bullet in it. The remarkable thing about it is that the bullet came from behind... Tongue
 

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Reply #7 - Sep 20th, 2003 at 4:17pm

ozzy72   Offline
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Dowding Roll Eyes
I'll go and beat myself around the head with a baseball bat now in the inane hope of knocking some sense in Roll Eyes

Thanks
Mark

PS. Quote:
Oops, sorry. I didn't think with all your Spitfire resources you would be interested. I only took those pics recently. Been waiting for a chance to post them.
Doug we need to talk.....
 

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Reply #8 - Sep 20th, 2003 at 4:27pm

HawkerTempest5   Offline
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What a beautiful aircraft. Thanks for posting those photos Hagar pal.
« Last Edit: Sep 21st, 2003 at 11:01am by HawkerTempest5 »  

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Reply #9 - Sep 21st, 2003 at 12:52am

Professor Brensec   Offline
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The info I have Hawk, says that the installation of the armour (the first lot prior to BoB), cost 10 klm per hour in speed (6.25 MPH). Not alot to sacrifice if you ask me.

Yes, Hawk, the Japanese didn't install much (if any) armour plating at all. This was to maintain the huge manoeuvering advantage they had over all planes prior to the early '40's. They were extremely light and lower powered in comparison to their adversaries, but their ability to just 'slip' out of the way up, down or sideways gave them the advantage until the proper tactics were adopted by the Americans in the Pacific (and in China).

Their exclusion of self sealing tanks also cost many planes and pilots. A fatal calculation on their part.
I honsetly think they were just far too cocky and self-superior, after their 'hollow' victories in China and Manchuria, defeating ill equipped, untrained armies and air corps.  Grin Wink
 

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Reply #10 - Sep 21st, 2003 at 5:26am

Hagar   Offline
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If anyone was caught napping it was the RAF with their outdated ideas & tactics. The post-WWI RAF was more like a gentleman's club. The leaders forgot the lessons learned in WWI so the pilots had to learn them all over again - rapidly. NCO pilots were not allowed to fraternise with the officers they fought alongside so did not take part in the latest discussions on tactics in the mess. Utter stupidity. Angry

As Ozzy points out, Dowding had to use threats & all his powers of persuasion to get armour fitted to give some protection to his "boys". It amazes me that we got away with it in the BoB.

PS. Dowding was never forgiven for his attitude to the pen-pushers & higher authority in general. Soon after the BoB had been won he was told his services were no longer required. He was sent to the USA to serve in the Ministry of Aircraft Production. What a waste. This great man retired from the RAF in 1942.
 

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Reply #11 - Sep 21st, 2003 at 6:39am

ozzy72   Offline
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Alas Doug we did indeed pay a v.heavy price in blood because of a few jessies in White Hall who knew nothing about aerial combat, and didn't give a mokeys about a young mans life over the importance of saving a few shillings for the ministry! Oh how things haven't changed Roll Eyes

Mark
 

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Reply #12 - Sep 21st, 2003 at 10:10am

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
Oh how things haven't changed Roll Eyes

I'm not surprised. Unfortunately this is how Britain usually thanks its heroes. I could name many similar examples.

Read this. http://www.maidenhead-advertiser.co.uk/news/news_gen2.html
A sign of the times which makes me ashamed of my country. I'm sure this is not what those guys were fighting for. Angry
 

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Reply #13 - Sep 21st, 2003 at 11:31am

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That is simply disgraceful. Britain was always rated as only second to Japan in the way it treated its war dead. But it seems we're the world leader in being shoddy to our veterans who risked their lives for us Cry
I'm ashamed to be British Sad

Ozzy
 

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Reply #14 - Sep 21st, 2003 at 12:21pm

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Quote:
A 91-YEAR-OLD war hero who has suffered two strokes was left lying on the floor of his Cookham Dean home after paramedics told him they did not have the correct equipment to lift him.
Air Marshall Sir Patrick Dunn, who relies on a walking frame and a wheelchair, fell to the floor as his wife Lady Diana, 90, was helping him into his chair.
Lady Dunn called the emergency services as she was unable to lift her husband, but told the operator he did not need hospital treatment.
She said two paramedics later arrived, but said they needed specialist equipment to pick up Sir Patrick as regulations prevented them lifting him themselves.
Lady Dunn said: “They said they are not allowed to lift anybody from the floor, I did not know what to do, he had been about an hour on the floor.
“He was lying on the floor saying ‘please help me’ and holding up his hands, but they would not.”
Fortunately Sir Patrick’s daily carer, who was not due until the evening, was passing by and came into the house to help the fighter ace – who flew Hurricane and Gladiators in the Second World War before taking command of anti-V2 rocket operations.
Graham Groves, from the Royal Berkshire Ambulance NHS Trust, said a representative of the trust was due to visit Lady Dunn yesterday (Thursday) to discuss the incident and address any failings which may have arisen.
He said: “We apologise if there has been a failing in the service.”


I am going to get flamed for this.  So be it.

As a health professional who works very closely with the ambulance service I have to champion their defense.

They (paramedic's and technicians) do not refuse to lift someone off the floor unless they have good reason to do so.  This usually has something to do with the weight of the patient.  Nurses do not lift patients off  the floor without the right equipment either, I see no need to cripple my self for life for the sake of a fifteen minute wait for the correct equipment to turn up. 

It is likely that in this circumstance it was impossible to lift the gentleman without the risk of injury to the lifters.  Consider what good it would have done to the patient if during the lift one of the crew had suffered an injury and had been forced to drop him.

The head line would have been "Paramedic drops war hero on floor whilst illegally lifting him".

Also note that I can (and would) lose my job with no pension and no compensation if I was to illegally lift a patient and cause myself an injury that prevented me from working.  The correct way of dealing with a situation like this is for the ambulance crew to request assistance from the fire brigade, which according to the radio news report is exactly what they did.

Will
 

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