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P40 two seater (another one) (Read 3014 times)
Jul 26th, 2003 at 4:09am

Professor Brensec   Offline
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I found this pic today, of a P40-M while wandering around the Net. Funnily, there is also a pic of a plane with exactly the same markings but in the original one-seat config. - I'm a little perplexed?? Grin

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I posted a pic of a P40N two seater, which everyone was relatively surprised to see. Now there's this one, too.  Grin Grin Wink
 

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Reply #1 - Jul 26th, 2003 at 4:26am

ozzy72   Offline
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Well I for one can't believe there is another one. The 40 was quite a good design for shoving in an extra seat, unlike the Spit of Hurri.
Nice to see them fly, and some lucky devils get the opportunity to go up in one Angry

Cheers Brensec
Ozzy
 

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Reply #2 - Jul 26th, 2003 at 4:55am

Hagar   Offline
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Your photos look like the Fighter Collection P-40N (G-KITT) which is a single-seater. I believe the photographer Ben Rogers is based at Duxford. Our friend Tempest would know more about it than me but it's just possible it was later converted to a 2-seater.  The TFC Kittyhawk is painted to represent a P-40E 'Aleutian Tiger' of the USAAF's 11th squadron , 343 rd Fighter Group, based in the Aleutians during 1942/3
I'm not sure in this case but it's not unusual for there to be more than one example of a restored aircraft in famous markings. I believe there's at least 3 different examples of P-51D "Big Beautiful Doll" in various places around the world.

PS. Although I've seen it described as a P-40M, G-KITT is registered as a P-40N. http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/aircraft_register/ginfo/search.asp
I'm not sure of the difference without looking it up.
 

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Reply #3 - Jul 26th, 2003 at 5:16am

ozzy72   Offline
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Ben is most definately Duxfords main photographer, his stuff for warbirds is simply awesome.
I believe this one was converted Doug, if you have a look at the first shot, that isn't the normal back part of the 'pit, it looks like a seat and harnesses. I'll ask Roger though too.

Mark
 

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Reply #4 - Jul 26th, 2003 at 6:00am

HawkerTempest5   Offline
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Hagar is spot on here. This is TFC P-40. IT is not dual control but does have a second seat fitted. I think OFMC's P-40 also has a second seat but again is not dual control.
« Last Edit: Jul 26th, 2003 at 6:23pm by HawkerTempest5 »  

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Reply #5 - Jul 26th, 2003 at 9:02am

Professor Brensec   Offline
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Thanks for all this info people.

It's all very interesting to me . As you know, the P40 is 'MY' plane. Especially being Aussie. It was better than anything we came up with, until we started making the Boomerang, which wasn't bad, just too slow.

We also seemed to be able to score the kills against the Japs, just as the Tigers did in China. Tactics and training was the key.
Also the fact that, although it had it's performance limitations at height, it was still a 350 mph fighter in 1941. Faster than the Zeros, so good for hit'n'run, or 'boom'n'zoom' as you Yanks call it.

It's nice to know that there are at least a couple of P40's I can have a ride in one day, if I ever really want to look them up and go to the trouble and cost.

As for the comment 'the P40 was better suited to two seat conversion'. Most definitely. There seems to be ample room for an extra seat, if not the extra controls for training.
In fact, the rear of the cockpit seems to have the perspex extending back over the fuselage, almost as if they were going to have a two seater and at the last minute decided not to.........lol Grin Grin Wink

Antway, thanks for the info.  Grin Grin Wink

 

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Reply #6 - Jul 26th, 2003 at 9:37am

ozzy72   Offline
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Odd I thought the extended greenhouse was for better rearward visibility..... Just goes to show Roll Eyes
 

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Reply #7 - Jul 26th, 2003 at 4:49pm

OTTOL   Offline
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If you ever make it here to South Florida, the Weeks museum(KTMB) has a "true" two seat P-40, with the extended canopy. Sort of reminds me of TBM(Avenger) meets P40. I can appreciate it for it's value as a rarity, but also being a P40 fan,(I still watch the movie 1941 on a regular basis), I have to admit, I think it's kinda ugly. Sad
 

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Reply #8 - Jul 27th, 2003 at 2:15am

Professor Brensec   Offline
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Quote:
Odd I thought the extended greenhouse was for better rearward visibility..... Just goes to show Roll Eyes


If you look at the shot of the 'un-modified' one, in my post, and you'll see that the rear section of the cockpit, although it has a perpsex sheet, it seems to be directly over the sheet aluminium of the fuselage.
The reason for my comments is that I can't see a reason for that rear piece of perspex extending past the cockpit as it does.  Grin Grin Wink
 

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Reply #9 - Jul 27th, 2003 at 3:04am

Rifleman   Offline
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The reason for the windows over the scalloped out turtle deck is for rear visibility for the pilot.......it was an intentional design addition to aid the boss and had nothing to do with leaving space for a second seat....found this out from a very good aviation historian while walking through the Glenn Curtiss Museum in Hammondsport NY........they have a 3/4 scale version in there....full size wasn't available when this one came up, so they grabbed it anyway......

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Reply #10 - Jul 27th, 2003 at 5:53am

Professor Brensec   Offline
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Oh, I didn't think for a minute that that bit of the design had anything to do with the provision for a second seat.
I just mentioned that it seems to suit that purpose so well that it 'almost' looks as though it was planned.
Grin Grin Wink
 

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Reply #11 - Jul 27th, 2003 at 7:40am

ozzy72   Offline
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I was only pulling your leg Steve. I don't think Ken twigged though Roll Eyes

Mark 8)
 

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Reply #12 - Jul 27th, 2003 at 8:18am

Hagar   Offline
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I think these photos might help. This P-40F has the original improved rear-view rear canopy. The shadows show the contours of the scalloped decking quite clearly. I always assumed this contains the fuel tank?

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The upper diagram shows the same thing on the original P-40N. The lower one shows a further modification for improved rear view introduced on the P-40N-5-CU & used on subsequent versions.

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This is the factory-built 2-seater trainer TP-40N-30CU.

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Reply #13 - Jul 27th, 2003 at 10:13am

Rifleman   Offline
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Fuel tank that far back behind the C of G ? I wouldn't want it that way.....you'd always be landing nose heavy when going dry.............

Your second image looks to be from the Squadron Signal Publication of " P-40 in Action "......I believe I have that one.......
 

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Reply #14 - Jul 27th, 2003 at 10:29am

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
Fuel tank that far back behind the C of G ? I wouldn't want it that way.....you'd always be landing nose heavy when going dry.............

I could be quite wrong about the tank. There must be something important in there or they would have removed the decking in that area completely. I must check it out instead of guessing.
The Bf 109 had the main fuel tank located behind the pilot's seat. The Hurricane & Spit had a fuel tank in front of the instrument panel. With space at a premium, wherever they put the thing it's a tad dangerous. Roll Eyes

Quote:
Your second image looks to be from the Squadron Signal Publication of " P-40 in Action "......I believe I have that one.......

I found that image on the site I posted the link to.

PS. I just checked my bible "The Complete Book of Fighters" by William Green & Gordon Swanborough. The P-40E had a fuel tank of 51.5 Imperial Gallons capacity located directly behind the pilot's seat & below that scalloped turtle decking. I'm not sure where they could move it to on the 2-seat versions.
 

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Reply #15 - Jul 27th, 2003 at 4:45pm

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Most Spits from MkIX onwards had a 29 gallon tank behind the pilot. The later Mustangs also had a tank behind the pilot but I've read that this tank when full and with a full load on the plane did cause a few handling problems!
 

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Reply #16 - Jul 29th, 2003 at 2:45am

Professor Brensec   Offline
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Quote:
Most Spits from MkIX onwards had a 29 gallon tank behind the pilot. The later Mustangs also had a tank behind the pilot but I've read that this tank when full and with a full load on the plane did cause a few handling problems!


I recall seeing in the History Channel Doco on the P51-D that the pilots (from their own mouths), purposely drained that fuselage tank first because it had such a bad effect on the handling of the plane.
One of the pilots said that they were actually going against 'SOP' (although fighter pilots did have a good deal of latitude in these matters). They were supposed to get as much out of the 'drop tanks' first, before the might have to drop them for action, but he said that the value of getting rid of the fuel in that fusealge tank first was worth the risk of running low because it could mean the great advantage in a dogfight.  Grin Wink

P.S. Hagar, that pic of the 'genuine' P40 trainer shows that there is a huge difference in the later conversions (far less space taken in the later conversion), which must obviously be only for 'pillion' passengers.  Grin Grin Wink
 

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Reply #17 - Jul 29th, 2003 at 12:21pm

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
I recall seeing in the History Channel Doco on the P51-D that the pilots (from their own mouths), purposely drained that fuselage tank first because it had such a bad effect on the handling of the plane.

Hope you don't mean that in the literal sense. I have visions of them sucking on a rubber pipe to siphon it out like I used to in the old days. LOL

Quote:
P.S. Hagar, that pic of the 'genuine' P40 trainer shows that there is a huge difference in the later conversions (far less space taken in the later conversion), which must obviously be only for 'pillion' passengers.  Grin Grin Wink

Also note what I assume is a periscope fitted above the rear canopy. Various methods were used to give the instructor better forward vision. The Miles Master advanced trainer (similar to the Harvard) had a special rear seat which could be raised so the instructor's head was above the canopy during take-off & landing. The top section of the canopy was hinged to form a windscreen. The passenger conversions would not need anything like this.
 

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Reply #18 - Aug 16th, 2003 at 2:31pm

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Quote:
This TP-40N is one of about 40 factory-built dual-control P-40?s during the war.  Used mostly for training, some were used in combat areas as squadron hacks or for flying dignitaries or Generals around.
This aircraft was acquired when  Kermit purchased the Tallmantz collection in 1985.  It was used in the movies, "Tora, Tora, Tora" and "Death Chase".  After  Kermit flew the aircraft home to Florida, one of the seal-sealing fuel cells began to leak.  The decision was made to go through this valuable aircraft, as it had never been restored.  Restoration began in the late eighties but was interrupted when Hurricane Andrew came through Miami in 1992.  Some parts were lost when the shop doors and roof left the restoration building, but everything was replaced or remade.  The aircraft has been restored to a very original condition including hand-spliced control cables, original instructor?s mirror, dummy guns and gun sight. This is the only example left in the worldand has been meticulously restored by Vincent Tirado and the volunteers at the Weeks Air Museum in Miami, Florida.


This is from the Weeks museum web site. Sorry they didn't have a picture guys, I'll work on it! Cry
 

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Reply #19 - Aug 24th, 2003 at 5:42pm

ozzy72   Offline
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Reply #20 - Aug 24th, 2003 at 6:11pm

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Lol.  That explains the massive range then....

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Reply #21 - Aug 26th, 2003 at 9:16am

Professor Brensec   Offline
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Very amusing, my friend. LMAO  Grin

If anyone else had defaced my Lovely P40 like that, I would be planning the 'Revenge of the Century' right now.

(But you can have that one, and that one only.......for free.......... Grin Grin Wink)
 

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