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why do i see so few DVCs??? (Read 452 times)
Jul 2nd, 2003 at 11:18am

Moach   Offline
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i gather that about 90% of addon planes have no virtual cockpit of any kind, specially big airliners Tongue

i spend most of my endless flying hours operating from the dvc... so i think its fair to say that the DVC is one of the MOST important features of a good addon plane Roll Eyes

but why no-one makes DVC's
is it so hard to make one? why would anyone make a beautiful plane with thousands of details, perfectly animated moving parts, flawless textures and leave behing this one feature that would make that plane an all-time favourite ???

it can't be THAT hard Tongue

im working on a little plane myself, its my first one so im quite a bit held back by complications, but be sure that when its done it'll have a DVC Roll Eyes

my dream plane would be a b767 like POSKY's with a fully functional VC, Roll Eyes
(a MD-11 would be great too)

if anyone knows where i can find such planes please post Wink
 
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Reply #1 - Jul 2nd, 2003 at 11:35am

Hagar   Offline
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I have my own theory on this. You might not be aware that FS2000 was the only M$ sim since FS98 which did away with the DVC. All the default aircraft have special view windows in the panel instead. An example of this type of panel can be seen in the FS2002 default Lear45 & Mooney Bravo which are straight out of FS2000. The new graphics engine was not ideal so very few 3rd party aircraft had one either. In fact, the DVC was a big mystery for a long time. The big breakthrough came due to the efforts of Joe Amodea & his team of CFS2 developers with the help of Louis Sinclair (FSDS developer) & some of the original M$ CFS2 development team. Joe was kind enough to write a tute on the subject. It's still posted in the SimV Aircraft Design section. http://www.simviation.com/fsdesign_tute1.htm Most CFS2 3rd party aircraft from that point onwards featured a fully functional DVC.

It was only when FS2002 was released, reverting back to the DVC, that the FS developers started to catch up. The latest Gmax & FSDS2 designs tend to be less graphics intensive than the old FSDS models which means that a DVC is now a practical proposition. Highly detailed visual models like the Posky aircraft were already at the maximum polygon count. It was simply not possible to include a DVC without losing that detail. The multi-LOD model (which Joe & his colleagues developed at the same time as the DVC) still seems to have been overlooked. I've seen very few FS aircraft that have this feature. Joe never received the credit he deserved. IMHO

I feel better now. I've been waiting a long time for the opportunity to get this off my chest.  Grin

PS. It's worth bearing in mind that not everyone is keen on the DVC any way. Many prefer the old FS2000-style panels. This might change with FS2004 which features clickable DVC gauges for the first time. Most FS2002 3rd party aircraft with an existing DVC should work fine.
 
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Reply #2 - Jul 2nd, 2003 at 12:06pm

Iroquois   Offline
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Quote:
The multi-LOD model (which Joe & his colleagues developed at the same time as the DVC) still seems to have been overlooked. I've seen very few FS aircraft that have this feature.


The default FS2002 aircraft had this feature. I noticed it when it became a problem in my failed attempt to convert FS2002 aircraft into CFS3 format.
I believe that the reason they there aren't very many aircraft with DVCs is that they are probably very complicated to produce and hard on frames. Most people just leave them out due to time or download size (many people still have 56k not Cable like me Wink)
If you like flying from a DVC, try CFS3. They did away with the 2D panel all together. Another bonus is that the DVC file in CFS3 is separate from the model file, therefore designers can uses a single virtual cockpit on many different planes. This was one of the faults in FS2002 because the DVC is built into the model file. All CFS3 addon aircraft have DVCs and most of these addons have ones that are really well done. It also seens that FS2004 is going to do without the 2D panel but you'll be able to manipulate the switches with the mouse, unlike in CFS3 where you have to use the keyboard.   
 
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Reply #3 - Jul 2nd, 2003 at 12:15pm

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
It also seens that FS2004 is going to do without the 2D panel but you'll be able to manipulate the switches with the mouse, unlike in CFS3 where you have to use the keyboard.  

Who told you that Orenda? The 2004 defaults have very nice 2D panels + a DVC with clickable gauges.

I'll spare you my opinions on CFS3.  Roll Eyes
 
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Reply #4 - Jul 2nd, 2003 at 12:29pm

Moach   Offline
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Quote:
. Another bonus is that the DVC file in CFS3 is separate from the model file, therefore designers can uses a single virtual cockpit on many different planes.


now theres a treat M$ could include in fs2004 (fingers crossed, i hope they do)
that would certaily solve this problem...
 
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Reply #5 - Jul 2nd, 2003 at 12:38pm

BFMF   Offline
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Quote:
now theres a treat M$ could include in fs2004 (fingers crossed, i hope they do)
that would certaily solve this problem...


Sorry, but to keep the aircraft compatability in FS2004, it will be using the same formats Wink
 
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Reply #6 - Jul 2nd, 2003 at 12:43pm

Hagar   Offline
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CFS3 might have its good points but it's an odd man out with completely different features to any other M$ flight sim. FS2004 retains the familiar Aircraft Container structure which has been an integral part of the M$ sims since FS98. This makes it compatible with 3rd party aircraft designed for FS2002 & maybe earlier versions of FS.
 
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Reply #7 - Jul 2nd, 2003 at 12:44pm

Moach   Offline
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about that poly count thing...

i don,t think that poly count is an excuse for not having a dvc included

i've seen many incredibly detailed planes with dvc's, like
Yannick Lavigne's Falcon 50 or posky's CRJ-200

these two planes have the most incredibly detailed DVC's and exterior models i've ever laid eyes on

and even if poly count DOES come to be a problem, i really would rather have a plane with fewer details outside and a nice VC that one where you could see all the nuts and bolts but no VC Roll Eyes
 
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Reply #8 - Jul 2nd, 2003 at 12:53pm

Hagar   Offline
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Moach. You're entitled to your opinion. I also like a DVC but many others disagree. In the end it's up to the designer.

The DVC is treated as a separate model in FSDS2. I'm almost certain this is also the case with Gmax. Once it's created the same DVC can be imported into any existing design, providing you have the source file. I've seen the FSDS source file for a generic jet fighter DVC posted in the Design section here at SimV.
 
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Reply #9 - Jul 2nd, 2003 at 1:50pm

pete   Offline
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& one more little point -

Quote:
it can't be THAT hard


yes it is that hard ... The DVC is a project in itslef & can easily outrank the main aircraft in time & effort required....

Learning to design an aircraft is one thing - then learning to design a DVC is another skill again - with a unique learning curve & skills required completely different from the aircraft - such as adding working gauges ....
 
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Reply #10 - Jul 2nd, 2003 at 3:12pm
RollerBall   Ex Member

 
I HATE, LOATHE and DETEST DVCs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They wouldn't be problem if you could just not have them by choice - but as they are built into the FS2002 model you can't.

Most planes that come with DVC also come with panels that are poor compared to those made by independent specialist panel designers. Trouble then is you are stuck with the stoopid DVC which affects your 'views' and I've even got to the point where I've deleted aircraft because of it.

Case in point is a lovely vintage Cathay Convair from Mark's 'swiremariners' site which is unflyable because the DVC is useless and crashes my system.

I go for having the best available panel anytime - not the DVC. After all, the only way you know which plane you're flying is from the panel as you very rarely step outside 'mid flight' to look at the outside of the aircarft.
 
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Reply #11 - Jul 2nd, 2003 at 3:33pm
born_2_fly   Ex Member

 
I also have a problem with this! But this time it is becase they are the default AI aircraft for fs2002 & have no panel of any shape or form!!!!!
 
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Reply #12 - Jul 2nd, 2003 at 4:10pm

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
I HATE, LOATHE and DETEST DVCs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks Roger for proving my point & putting the other side of the argument. Cheesy

Quote:
I also have a problem with this! But this time it is becase they are the default AI aircraft for fs2002 & have no panel of any shape or form!!!!!

born_2_fly. This should not be a problem. As unflyable AI Only drones these aircraft have no DVC & don't need a 2D panel. I'm sure there are suitable 3rd party panels posted in the Panels section on this & other FS sites if you want them. These might also have the FS2000-style extra view windows I mentioned. If not, download CfgEdit from the Design section & have a go at making them yourself. There's usually a way round these little difficulties.
 
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Reply #13 - Jul 2nd, 2003 at 5:18pm

Iroquois   Offline
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Quote:
& one more little point -



yes it is that hard ... The DVC is a project in itslef & can easily outrank the main aircraft in time & effort required....

Learning to design an aircraft is one thing - then learning to design a DVC is another skill again - with a unique learning curve & skills required completely different from the aircraft - such as adding working gauges ....


It's nice to be right for once. A plane is just a tube with rectangular wings and tail. I know it's not so simple as the plane itself takes a long time to model. Now think of the virtual cockpit as Gmax modeling a room in your house, including all furnature and all nicknacks to the exact place in real life. This would be very difficult and take a heck of a long time. Only the most skilled of designers can pull this off. Unfortunately not all of us have taken a graphic designe course at Sheriden College. (Top university fror graphics designe in Canada, perhaps North America. I believe Disney/Pixar gets a lot of their people from there) Most CFS3 virtual cockpits are just copies or reworks of the default ones. Off the top of my head, the only truly original ones are the KI-43 and the Bf110.

In response to Hagar, I read somewhere that FS2004 got rid of the 2D panel, plus all the screenshots I've seen are of the virtual cockpits only.
 
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Reply #14 - Jul 2nd, 2003 at 6:21pm

Oz   Offline
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Quote:
In response to Hagar, I read somewhere that FS2004 got rid of the 2D panel, plus all the screenshots I've seen are of the virtual cockpits only.  


I know, i thought i heard that too. Maybe the pics where you see straight ahead are only of the DVC's 12 o clock view. There will be a gauge bitmap i heard that will contain couple gauges only for reference. Anways whats the use of having another bitmap panel if you got a realistic cockpit and you can click switches and all..
 
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