Hi Criag, I've voted yes on this even though I myself own a couple of guns, and regularly go shooting with my father-in-law, and old forces friends and relatives.
I believe in the UK that they are introducing laws to restrict the sale of airguns, but not BBs, as a number of people have been shot by armed police officers whilst using these in heists and then threatening members of the public and pretending it was a real gun! Dumb. And then they or their relatives make out its the police's fault! Right proper wallies!
There should be some sort of control, and it might be worth trying your local CAB and seeing what they say on the legal side of things. If they say its illegal, then contact your local Trading Standards, and they will be able to take action against these people.
However I feel that shops should still be allowed to sell them, as they are legally liable for their actions, but there should be some sort of licencing system as per shotguns.

Ozzy

Absolutely not. I have the  old fashioned American point of view.

Right To Bear Arms

Responsibility To Know What To Do With Them

Too Stupid To Not Know How To Use Them Properly? - Get Your Dumb Butt Shot Off And Taken Out Of The Gene Pool Before You Can Breed.




Seriously - I have had guns since I was 7 years old. I have the Right. Many have died so I can have that right. I served my time defending that right. I will honor my investment and their ultimate sacrifice. No one. Absolutely NO ONE is going going to take them away from ME because some parents were too frikken stupid to have kids. I am responsible and expect others to be so. If they are not, I should be punished by taking my guns? I think not.

When My daughter was little, I refused to move the breakables out of her reach. She would learn NOTHING if that was so. In the long run I lost fewer items to clutching little fingers than indulgent parents did. I took the time to raise my child and teach many things. She has since thanked me many times for it. She realizes that she is head and shoulders above her childhood friends.

Once again, I ask you, should my life be limited or rights reduced because of lazy ass parents of others?

I will die first. Many here say that. and it is true. They WILL come for our guns. When they do, it will be ugly.


Liberals do not understand. It is not about the guns. It is about a principle. The fact that I resent being regulated to death because of other's stupidity and lack of common sense and morals.

Lemme see, little Suzy broke the lamp. I know! I'll spank Johnny! That will surely teach a lesson she'll not soon forget!

That is not right. That is not just. That is counterproductive. That is not going to happen while I am alive.


PS - funny thing is I haven't shot any of my guns for almost ten years now - it is the principle of the thing.

But if they do come for them I am reasonably sure I still hold a pretty tight grouping.  

I was a Marksman afterall.

hey OSO i understand that point and its perfectly valid. but firstly this is the UK where the law is a little differant. and secondly i am on about selling them on open air markets, these arnt licensed gun shops and sell everything from shoe polish to hand cream. in true british tradition half the stuff on our markets is off the back of a truck, so i couldnt gaurentee their safety. I am actually glad we are allowed to own these weapons but i dont think some guy selling them off a wooden table to a 13 year old should be allowed, and like you said some of these guns have a higher velocity than the real deal.

dont get me wrong i wasnt having a go at you at all(difficult to project speach in text) and here you can own guns legally if you get all the checks done(which i believe is the same for the US. in some ways i like the US's way of doing things its alot more relaxed but also thorough in its workings.

hey personally i think if its allowed why not make use of it? i think your posts were all valid and your right, many men and women have fought and died for those rights and why should they not be made good use of.
hell if my mum wasnt against me owning one, i would have one myself.
its just these people who go out and make them avaliable to little kids without a second thought thats where we have problems.

ahahaha
so many a time have i wanted to take out a particulary bright rudolf or noisey santa:)

Well I've just got this answer from my friend who works for Trading Standards, and was also a firearms instructor for the ATC for a number of years.

Air guns - It is an offence for a person under the age of 17 to purchase an air weapon or ammo or for anyone to sell an air weapon or ammo to such a young person, however, they can be owned by someone over 14, they cannot be used unsupervised by anyone under 14. This is specified in the Firearms Act 1968 - Air weapons are classed as firearms, however if they are between 3/4 of a foot pound and 12 foot pounds they do not need a firearms certificate.

Any offence under the Firearms Act 1968 is a police matter.

BB's - These generally fall outside of the firearms act 1968 due to low muzzle energy, which defines a firearm as a 'lethal barrelled weapon capable of discharging of any shot, bullet or other missile'.....'Lethality is defined as 'capable of inflicting a more than trivial injury'. Expert advice from the Forensic Science Service is that the lowest power level at which a penetrating injury can occur is at a muzzle energy of about 1 foot pound (1.35 joules). Most retailers do not sell to under 14  but there is no legal age.

However BB guns could be classed as toys in which case they need to comply with EN71(the toy standard) and the Toy regulations. Only if sold to under 14's or if we (TS) could show they are child appealing etc in accordance with the toy regs. Or if the muzzle energy exceeds 1 foot pound it may then be classed as a Firearm so min age 17.

Replicas - I am not aware of any restrictions on the sale but most retailers would not supply to under 14, other wise we (TS) may be able to argue they are toys.

TS stand on selling at a market well if we had the overtime we may visit, but unless we could show they were a toy and so needed to comply with the toy regs - NOTHING.

The police asked us to look into BB guns and the only thing it showed was they (police) could not decide if it was or was not a firearm (it depended on which officer you asked). We (TS) could have difficulty showing it was a toy, and if it was (a toy) we still may not have a infringement of the Toy regs! If they are not a toy then the General Product Safety Regs come in but you have to take into account what the product is so it probably falls outside of that as well.

Hope that answers the original question for you Craig. Meanwhile I think Oso has hit the nail on the head with his opinion of it comes down to responsibility. I was fortunate in that I came from a military family and was taught from an early age the correct way to handle firearms and never to treat them as toys. A lot of people aren't, and with something like that it is so easy for an accident to happen...
Mind you that didn't save the neighbours cat when it scratched the bonnet (hood) of my BMW318i!

Ozzy

thanks ozzy very much appreciated:)
as for the whole are guns right or wrong this wasnt really aimed in that direction, just more along the lines of should they be easaly avaliable on an open air market stall. but ozzys info has helped answer that.
the only reason i dont have a gun myself is my mum, she hates them, my dad being military has had extenisive training in all light and medium firearms. and has taught me how to use them responsibly.. i dont really have a problem with younger children operating them, but like the rest of you it has to be done so responsibly, they are lethal weapons simple as that.
going against that though i will prob pick up the sniper version they have for £20 i wanna see just how powerful it is(or at least from what i can make of ozzys info its legal to do so) i have a good garden to test it out in and then i will get back to you with the results and then destroy it.

Quote:

I appear to break that law quite regularly. My air rifle is 12 foot pound and therefore the maximum allowed with out a license and I have never been supivised by an adult when using it.

I voted yes. If airguns are sold at a general market any loony can buy them. I think that air rifles and firearms should be sold at gunsmiths only where a responsible adult can decide who gets to buy them.

I also think that a person should not be allowed to own an air weapon inless they have at least 1 acre of land to fire it on. At least then all them people in cities will not just be able to perchase a weapon.

I'm not against guns but i'm against the fact that any fool can buy an air rifle capable of killing someone at a range of over 50 yards.

I shall be 17 in june next year and I will be applying for a firearms license as soon as I can. I just hope that twats with air rifles will not abuse the right they have to own them. Because if they do then the chances are the age limit will be raised and maybe firearms will be banned altogether which will not be good. If you look at records shootings have been on a steady increase ever since dunblaine and the banning of hand guns. If all fire arms are banned then it will only make them more desireable to violent individuals who think they have somthing to make up for.

Well I've just had a scary phone call from my mum, someone blew out the drivers and passengers front windows of her Renault whilst she was driving down the main road in Amersham (where she lives). She said she felt the bullet zip past her nose.
The police can't do anything, bet if it was a cops wife they'd have arrested every gun owner in a 10 mile radius, according to them as there is no ballistic evidence! I bet if they bothered looking they could find some! Thames Valley police, a lot less use than a chocolate oven glove , they'll bust you for been a couple of MPH over the limit, but they won't look for a lunatic on the loose with a gun trying to kill women in their cars! Great service....
I'm v.in favour of weapons control. If she'd been going a tiny bit faster she would be dead right now! I hope the idiots that did this are caught.

Ozzy

I hope your Mum is OK.  I Have been shot at by air rifle myself, the kids that do it think it's a great laugh.  Parents need to get gloves off with kids that do this stuff, teach them a few lessons in receiving pain.

I agree about the police, they are hopeless in this area as well.

Will

Guns, of any sort, and me, have absolutely nothing in common whatsoever...!
...says it all...

Cheers...
Paul.
(England).

P.S.  glad your know Mum is O.K. Ozzy!
When I first started reading your posting I thought perhaps she was living in Los Angeles...NOT ENGLAND...!!!
Bad news...!

Great thread!
( a prime example of how differing views can make contact  & realise they ain't so different after all - once thought is understood )
Guns are lethal weapons. About 50k people die in the US yearly from gunshot. So are cars!

Cars are stricktly controlled - guns are too. Well enough in the US? Not sure. Too much in the UK? Not sure. State by state it's different.  My belief is that all 'adult' activity needs control - unfortunate but true - & that control should be in accordance with the dangers involved & taking into account human & cultural  statistics. The reality of human beings in a particular culture.

If they were totally banned - like heroine - why would anyone want a gun? - of no one else had a gun?.... & if no one else had a gun why would you want a gun.

Of course there is a major complictation - hunting. So is the gun an extended fishing rod? I personally fish & hunt. I love eating food I have caught or shot. It's a primative thing. 
I would never use a gun against a human being unless a person threatened my daughter with a gun.  We are all human!

What I'm trying to say is this: It gets complicated!

I know this was a simple question about allowing airguns on market stalls. I think that's maybe wrong. But I thought I'd add my little bit to a very interesting concept.

Smoke2much, what I meant by my post is that if someone is to own a firearm then they should have somewhere where they can fire it safetly. Whether this be there own bit of land or member ship at a rifle club it doesn't matter but they should be able to fire it without endangering peoples lives.

I live in a small hamlet and I go shooting about a mile away from any house. This means that the only civilisation I endanger is the very occasional dog walker and even there trespassing and shouldn't be there. And as for other hunters, well only me and my dad are allowed to hunt there by rules set by the quarry which we rent the land off. Also when I hunt I usually do it at dusk or at night so there is always practically 0 risk of me injuring a person.

Also I might add that I pity any idiot who decides that they might try and shoot me. Cause I swear I will only shoot back. And I rarely miss what i'm aiming for.

hey woodlouse i am the same when it comes to targeting, i do not miss more than once. i have no idea why i really dont take tons of time aim it or anything its like it comes naturally. part of the reason why i might become a sniper for the army if the career in the airlines fails to take off(no pun intended)

Thanks for the clarification Woodlouse.  If you had said about clubs or access to land I wouldn't have taken offence.  I cannot shoot these days as I have nowhere to go and live in a city.  When I have somewhere I will take the hobby up again.  It all comes down to doing things responsibly.  I personally don't think that anyone serious about shooting would buy an air rifle from a british market stall.  It all comes down to quality.

I also never miss more than once.

Will

Do you really think that banning guns will stop people from murdering others ???

If a person wants to kill someone bad enough, they will use anything they can. All kind of things like knives, cross bows , sticks, rocks, and the list could go one forever. hell, you can kill someone with your hands and feet.

What we need are stiffer penalties

Hmmmm.... seems like banning them does no good.

However, here in San Antonio the neighborhood that has the highest per capita gun ownership has the lowest gun crime rate in the area. A correlation maybe?  

heard on the radio that there was a school shooting today.....

Some kid pulled a gun and shot the principle, then shot and killed himself.




(don't turn this into an argument, i'm just stating a fact)

Here (Australia) the gunlaws are "relatively" the same in each State, after an incident in the late '90's which stirred enough public outrage and opinion for politicians to get uniform laws happening, countrywide. Prior to that the laws were always quite strict, especially with regard to the two legally "troublesome" types, handguns and semi/full auotmatic rifles.

I have licensing for handgun/s, the most difficult to obtain and retain here. In order to obtain and retain this licensing I had to undergo extremely rigorous training, testing and administrative procedures. The storage regulations have to be seen to be believed. The Police can also arrive on my doorstep at any time and demand to see the weapon and the safe.
The only other way in which on can obtain a handgun license is for the purpose of target shooting as a member of a Pistol Club. This is less rigorous but still comprehensive and does not allow the licensee to carry the weapon.
I have to undergo yearly testing and have to demonstrate my ability to handle the weapon, accurate shooting (less than 95% - you fail and lose the weapon), safety knowledge and must also hold a Senior First Aid certificate which is re-tested every 3 years.
Obviously, only people who are serious about there gun ownership and are capable and responsible can hope to earn this priviledge here.
That's the difference, there is no Constitutional right to bear arms. Just a priviledge for those who have a genuine need and are prepared and able to maintain the standards.
Rifle licensing is covered by the same legislation. Obviously less strict and rigorous but still good reason is required. Unfortunately there is no need for any kind of training or safety testing etc. Any kind of airgun or BB gun is classified as a firearm here and the same licensing is required. The minimum age for any firearms license is 18. The only exception is for Minors who take part in target shooting with air pistols and rifles as members of junuior divisions of a Pistol Club. Minors cannot be licensed for anything other than Air or BB guns.
No-one can sell or repair a firearm unless they are a licensed firearms dealer and qualified armourer.

No crimes are comitted involving licensed firearms in this country. They are committed with illegal firearms.
Many times I have asked "anti-gun lobby" people how taking guns away from the law abiding people, whose guns are never (or virtually never) used for illegal purposes, will have any effect on the incidence of gun related crime. I get no sensible reply. It would be like taking driving licenses off those who DON"T drive and expecting there to be less cars on the road!

Things seem to be pretty well sewn up here, except for illegal gun trade, which is a totally different matter to that being discussed here.  

I must say that although I do believe that not just anyone should be able to buy a gun. I also think that the best way to cure gun crime is to give all over 18's a firearm. That way anyone wanting to shoot someone can only expect to be fired at back.

Switzerland seems to have the right idea. Although a similar thing seems to be happen naturally in America is obviously needs a more peaceful nation to work.

Too right Brensec.  The Swiss give assault rifles to members of their armed forces, to be used in the event of a national emergency.  Giving everyone the right to carry a gun without first educating them in the responsibility that this entails would lead, in my opinion, to anarchy.

Will

It would be a very entertaining "learning curve" tho'

Will

I think Woodies idea does have some merit, a kind of Darwinian merit, but merit nevertheless.
However calibre of weapons should be relative to IQ, the more brains the bigger the gun. That should even things up a little and help to thin out the shallow end of the intellectual gene pool

Ozzy 8)

I think my career in the NHS would be over in a very, very short time.  One night duty would wipe me out...

I think it would cause a massive increase in gang/mafia/organised crime activity.  An individual would need allies to ensure that revenge would be forthcoming after his killing.  This would be the only way to protect oneself from random slaying.

The bullet proof jacket industry would be well worth investing in......

Will