Simviation Forum - Pattern Entry

Reply #15 - Apr 16^th, 2010 at 11:04am

Brett_Henderson Offline
Colonel
EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
BE AN NDB

Gender:
Posts: 3593

DaveSims wrote on Apr 16^th, 2010 at 10:44am:

I usually achieve TPA on the downwind. I was taught to turn crosswind at 500 feet. I think part of the thought process on that is to start the turn back towards the runway in case of engine failure. I was also taught to fly upwinds slight offset from the runway in case there is traffic on the runway below you and climbing.

The upwind thing is kinda arbitrary, as there aren't any rules.. but I'd agree with a slight offset; if for no other reason that being able to see the runway.. But again, the only reason you'd fly an upwind, instead of just straight-in; would be traffic.. and that would make it advisable to swing around and enter on crosswind, if not all the way around for a downwind entry. The reciprocal side of the pattern belongs to helos.

As for the 500agl rule.. that's an altitude where it's OK to turn "on course" (unless it cuts through the pattern). The crosswind leg would indeed be "on course", if you're flying closed traffic.. but turning crosswind while still over the runway (very possible in a lightly-loaded C172 with a decent headwind and long runway), would be a bad idea Cheesy

The idea of an altitude that has "turning back to the runway" in mind ... is taboo .. The circumstances where you could make it back, are rare enough to rule it out.

Back to top

IP Logged

Reply #16 - Apr 16^th, 2010 at 12:31pm

JoBee Offline
Colonel
Better to give than receive.

Posts: 582

DaveSims wrote on Apr 16^th, 2010 at 10:44am:

I usually achieve TPA on the downwind.

You should be at TPA before turning downwind.

Turning downwind before reaching pattern altitude puts you in perfect position to be landed on by someone descending to pattern altitude while entering the pattern on the 45.

Capt. Propwash, the important thing to remember, as stated by others, when you are cleared for a "right downwind" you are being told that the pattern is right turns, not that you need to make a right turn to enter the pattern.

Hope this helps.

cheers,
Joe

Don't argue with idiots, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Back to top

IP Logged

Reply #17 - Apr 16^th, 2010 at 2:35pm

olderndirt Offline
Colonel
Flying is PFM
Rochester, WA

Gender:
Posts: 3574

For a time, back in the early seventies, Patty Wagstaff's dad had a flying school at Merrill Field PAMR in Anchorage. He and a retired Air Force jock, named Flowers, taught airobatics in a Decathlon and, the first time one of them entered the downwind inverted, I literally dropped my mike. They usually rolled level on base - quite a novelty. Eventually the FAA GADO guys got wind of it and a gaggle showed up one afternoon to observe. Most were impressed - some not so much. Suffice to say there were no further intentional airobatics in our pattern. True story.

THIS IS NOT A PANAM CLIPPER

Back to top

IP Logged

Reply #18 - Apr 16^th, 2010 at 6:06pm

DaveSims Offline
Colonel
Clear Lake, Iowa

Gender:
Posts: 2453

olderndirt wrote on Apr 16^th, 2010 at 2:35pm:

For a time, back in the early seventies, Patty Wagstaff's dad had a flying school at Merrill Field PAMR in Anchorage. He and a retired Air Force jock, named Flowers, taught airobatics in a Decathlon and, the first time one of them entered the downwind inverted, I literally dropped my mike. They usually rolled level on base - quite a novelty. Eventually the FAA GADO guys got wind of it and a gaggle showed up one afternoon to observe. Most were impressed - some not so much. Suffice to say there were no further intentional airobatics in our pattern. True story.

Fun haters Angry

Dave

www.flymcw.com

Back to top

IP Logged

Reply #19 - Apr 16^th, 2010 at 10:00pm

Capt.Propwash Offline
Colonel
Let's get a little mud
on the tires!
KCHS, Charleston, SC, USA

Gender:
Posts: 1958

JoBee wrote on Apr 16^th, 2010 at 12:31pm:

DaveSims wrote on Apr 16^th, 2010 at 10:44am:

I usually achieve TPA on the downwind.

You should be at TPA before turning downwind.

Turning downwind before reaching pattern altitude puts you in perfect position to be landed on by someone descending to pattern altitude while entering the pattern on the 45.

Capt. Propwash, the important thing to remember, as stated by others, when you are cleared for a "right downwind" you are being told that the pattern is right turns, not that you need to make a right turn to enter the pattern.

Hope this helps.

cheers,
Joe

so ultimately... by the drawing that i made, and going by ATC instructions, and by what you said..... "N176CM, Make Right Downwind, runway will be 33". so i would really turn LEFT to get into the downwind leg, then RIGHT TURN for base... then again for Final. (im in a right handed pattern, but i had to turn left to get in it)

The thoughts and expressions contained in the post above are solely my own, and not necessarily those of Simviation.com, its Moderators, its Staff, its Members, or other guests. They can not, are not, and will not be held liable for any thoughts, or expressions, or posts that I have made, or will make in the future.

Computer Specs:: Acer Aspire Laptop..Win7 Home Premium 64-bit (sp1), AMD Athlon II X2 P340 (Dual Core) [2.2 Ghz], ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4250 (256mb), 4GB DDR3......FS9.1(sp3) / FSX (sp2)..... Ultimate Terrain X, Ground Environment X, REX, FTX ORBX PNW-PFJ-NRM-CRM, OZx, Tongass Fjords, Misty Moorings

Back to top

IP Logged

Reply #20 - Apr 16^th, 2010 at 10:46pm

beaky Offline
Global Moderator
Uhhhh.... yup!
Newark, NJ USA

Gender:
Posts: 14187

ViperPilot wrote on Apr 16^th, 2010 at 10:26am:

Hello!

Brett: Thanks! I wasn't sure if there was a set procedure or time frame for achieving TPA. I'll continue to practice and make the transitions smoother.

Alan

The only really important thing is to not climb up or drop down into the downwind leg, for obvious reasons... how you manage that is up to you.

Back to top

IP Logged

Reply #21 - Apr 17^th, 2010 at 1:31am

JoBee Offline
Colonel
Better to give than receive.

Posts: 582

Capt.Propwash wrote on Apr 16^th, 2010 at 10:00pm:

JoBee wrote on Apr 16^th, 2010 at 12:31pm:

DaveSims wrote on Apr 16^th, 2010 at 10:44am:

I usually achieve TPA on the downwind.

You should be at TPA before turning downwind.

Turning downwind before reaching pattern altitude puts you in perfect position to be landed on by someone descending to pattern altitude while entering the pattern on the 45.

Capt. Propwash, the important thing to remember, as stated by others, when you are cleared for a "right downwind" you are being told that the pattern is right turns, not that you need to make a right turn to enter the pattern.

Hope this helps.

cheers,
Joe

so ultimately... by the drawing that i made, and going by ATC instructions, and by what you said..... "N176CM, Make Right Downwind, runway will be 33". so i would really turn LEFT to get into the downwind leg, then RIGHT TURN for base... then again for Final. (im in a right handed pattern, but i had to turn left to get in it)

Exactly.

Don't argue with idiots, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Back to top

IP Logged

Reply #22 - Apr 17^th, 2010 at 10:09am

Capt.Propwash Offline
Colonel
Let's get a little mud
on the tires!
KCHS, Charleston, SC, USA

Gender:
Posts: 1958

now i think i understand. when ATC tells you the pattern, they are telling you which direction the "PATTERN" is, they leave it up to you to figure out how the hell to get into it. got 'cha

The thoughts and expressions contained in the post above are solely my own, and not necessarily those of Simviation.com, its Moderators, its Staff, its Members, or other guests. They can not, are not, and will not be held liable for any thoughts, or expressions, or posts that I have made, or will make in the future.

Computer Specs:: Acer Aspire Laptop..Win7 Home Premium 64-bit (sp1), AMD Athlon II X2 P340 (Dual Core) [2.2 Ghz], ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4250 (256mb), 4GB DDR3......FS9.1(sp3) / FSX (sp2)..... Ultimate Terrain X, Ground Environment X, REX, FTX ORBX PNW-PFJ-NRM-CRM, OZx, Tongass Fjords, Misty Moorings

Back to top

IP Logged

Reply #23 - Apr 17^th, 2010 at 12:06pm

JoBee Offline
Colonel
Better to give than receive.

Posts: 582

This is a common drawing explaining a standard left-hand traffic pattern. Note the right 45 degree turn to enter the left-hand pattern.

A right-hand pattern for the same runway would look like...

Capt.Propwash wrote on Apr 17^th, 2010 at 10:09am:

now i think i understand. when ATC tells you the pattern, they are telling you which direction the "PATTERN" is, they leave it up to you to figure out how the hell to get into it. got 'cha

Using your drawing, I have added the green track to show your proper response to those directions. This is not to scale and you would want to make the turn to the north several miles from the airport.

Hope this helps.

cheers,
Joe

« Last Edit: Apr 17^th, 2010 at 2:13pm by JoBee »

Don't argue with idiots, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Back to top

IP Logged

Reply #24 - Apr 17^th, 2010 at 10:21pm

Capt.Propwash Offline
Colonel
Let's get a little mud
on the tires!
KCHS, Charleston, SC, USA

Gender:
Posts: 1958

there are just some things that "the learning center" should 'SHOW' you to teach you. ... lol, then again it just might and i didnt look hard enough.

one thing that my boss always says when he wants someone to go rummage through the trucks to find something, and you cant find it .. is "IF YOU CAN'T FIND IT, IT'S BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T LOOK HARD ENOUGH!!!"

in some reguards, that could also go for help on Flight Sim. If you want help to a problem, and you cant find an answer, (someone) didnt look hard enough for the answer before asking for help in finding it.

[if anyone really notices, i rarely ever ask for help to situations about flight sim on here, as I had learned 6 years ago that GOOGLE was my friend

]

The thoughts and expressions contained in the post above are solely my own, and not necessarily those of Simviation.com, its Moderators, its Staff, its Members, or other guests. They can not, are not, and will not be held liable for any thoughts, or expressions, or posts that I have made, or will make in the future.

Computer Specs:: Acer Aspire Laptop..Win7 Home Premium 64-bit (sp1), AMD Athlon II X2 P340 (Dual Core) [2.2 Ghz], ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4250 (256mb), 4GB DDR3......FS9.1(sp3) / FSX (sp2)..... Ultimate Terrain X, Ground Environment X, REX, FTX ORBX PNW-PFJ-NRM-CRM, OZx, Tongass Fjords, Misty Moorings

Back to top

IP Logged

Reply #25 - Apr 21^st, 2010 at 6:34pm

flaminghotsauce Offline
Colonel
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Posts: 181

[quote author=JoBee link=1271289997/23#23 date=1271520377]This is a common drawing explaining a standard left-hand traffic pattern. Note the right 45 degree turn to enter the left-hand pattern.
[img]http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/traffic_pattern.jpg[/img]

A right-hand pattern for the same runway would look like...
[img]http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/r-h-traffic_pattern.jpg[/img]

[quote author=usvaf_653 link=1271289997/22#22 date=1271513388]now i think i understand. when ATC tells you the pattern, they are telling you which direction the "PATTERN" is, they leave it up to you to figure out how the hell to get into it. got 'cha[/quote]
Using your drawing, I have added the green track to show your proper response to those directions. This is not to scale and you would want to make the turn to the north several miles from the airport.
[img]http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/FlightTUTE-jb.jpg[/img]

Hope this helps.

cheers,
Joe[/quote]
OR, your headed right smack toward the downwind leg. Turn left onto downwind instead of heading the wrong way to fly a full downwind leg.

Back to top

IP Logged

Reply #26 - Apr 21^st, 2010 at 8:53pm