Search the archive:
YaBB - Yet another Bulletin Board
 
   
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send Topic Print
VFR straight-in approach??? (Read 1500 times)
Apr 10th, 2010 at 10:52am

snippyfsxer   Offline
Colonel

Posts: 404
*****
 
Nobody does this in the real world, right?  At an uncontrolled airport, Let us say I'm coming in from the south to land visual RW 35.  It is good practice to enter the pattern upwind, rather than just announce you are landing straight in, right?
Can I also infer that at a controlled airport they would tell you to enter the pattern and fly a circuit, at least typically, unlike FS where the controller frequently tells you to fly straight in?
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #1 - Apr 10th, 2010 at 11:52am

-Crossfire-   Offline
Colonel
Northern Canada

Gender: male
Posts: 954
*****
 
At a controlled airport, ATC will often clear you straight in, traffic and weather(wind) permitting.  Of course it depends where you are relative to the active runway.

At an aiport with a FSS, ATC will give you the wind, so a straight in is an option if you want to do it.

Uncontrolled, it's good practice to follow normal circuit entry procedures.
 

...
IP Logged
 
Reply #2 - Apr 10th, 2010 at 2:33pm

beaky   Offline
Global Moderator
Uhhhh.... yup!
Newark, NJ USA

Gender: male
Posts: 14187
*****
 
It's not unheard-of in RL, but it is not recommended.
Officially, it is not recommended because it does not provide adequate assurance of separation from other aircraft, particularly if two aircraft are both on straight-ins at the same time.  Grin

But the real reason it's discouraged is because although it can be done quite safely, it seems that most pilots who opt for a straight-in announce their intentions on the CTAF as soon as they cancel flight following, about 20 miles out, then don't say another word, even when they come diving across the base leg in the midst of a busy pattern.  Angry

But radios don't keep you safe in VMC; your eyes do... yet while these pilots might be excused for these "stealthy" long straight-ins, they also tend to be so obsessed with the runway that they don't bother to notice everybody in the pattern. I've seen it too many times.  Roll Eyes

Having said that, I feel there's a time, place and methodology for the straight-in, as for the crosswind or even base entry. Sometimes these "nonstandard" approaches make more sense than crossing or skirting the field and turning around at pattern altitude right out where "everyone else" is making their 45-degree entry (a recipe for disaster).

You see, the problem with having a "recommended" pattern-entry procedure, is that it does not entirely eliminate the problem: if everybody's doing the same thing, whether they enter on a 45 to downwind, enter on crosswind, or come straight in, there is still a convergence point for traffic entering the pattern. So I will sometimes do it a little different, for safety as well as convenience.

I'll sooner enter on a crosswind than fly straight in, but I don't rule it out completely, as long as I'm willing and able to announce more than once, put myself on the proper glide path at the normal place (not dive in or drag it in over the treetops), and keep a very sharp eye out for traffic.

But once in the pattern, you should fly a standard pattern!!
 

...
IP Logged
 
Reply #3 - Apr 10th, 2010 at 11:36pm

Brett_Henderson   Offline
Colonel
EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
BE AN NDB

Gender: male
Posts: 3593
*****
 
These are good discussions.. and there are many variables.

I've adopted the methodology that the less time you spend in a pattern, the lesser chance that you'll end up having to share it... and unless there's good reason to not (crowded pattern; about to be crowded pattern (two or more people announcing inbound intentions still a few miles out).. I'll enter a pattern leg that's nearest my inbound course.. even if it's straight in... it gives you a good view of the pattern, with no vision obstructing turns.

Working your way around to the 45-downwind entry, can create as many problems as it solves. For example.. you're 5 miles out on a straight-in.. someone is five miles from entering the downwind.. and a guy flying closed traffic, just reported turning downwind. I'd report that I plan to follow the closed traffic guy.. intending to land behind him AFTER confirming him visually. It's really in noone's best interest to work your way over to a downwind entry.

No matter how you do it... most important is to piece together a mental image based on position reports, and visual confirmations.. even asking someone to re-report.. just to be sure... and then making a decision (and accurately reporting your position/intentions).

 
IP Logged
 
Reply #4 - Apr 11th, 2010 at 7:58am

beaky   Offline
Global Moderator
Uhhhh.... yup!
Newark, NJ USA

Gender: male
Posts: 14187
*****
 
I knew you'd chime in here, and I knew you'd say this... Wink

Brett_Henderson wrote on Apr 10th, 2010 at 11:36pm:
I've adopted the methodology that the less time you spend in a pattern, the lesser chance that you'll end up having to share it... and unless there's good reason to not (crowded pattern; about to be crowded pattern (two or more people announcing inbound intentions still a few miles out)..
No matter how you do it... most important is to piece together a mental image based on position reports, and visual confirmations.. even asking someone to re-report.. just to be sure... and then making a decision (and accurately reporting your position/intentions).


I'd forgotten to mention the "minimal time in the pattern" thing; it is an important part of my decision-making process when arriving. 
And of course, the Big Picture includes aircraft near the pattern area, whether arriving or departing; if I hear but don't see someone out there, I'll also make numerous inquiries/reports.

But I am not happy if I don't see them... you can't trust some of these folks, like the Bo driver who called "three miles", no entry intentions specified, then appeared less than a minute later, dropping onto the base leg from above TPA, right in front of me!!  Shocked   Angry  I've gotten more and more in the habit of glancing at the runway only a few times when entering and flying the pattern, looking outside 95% of the time... not the other way around!

Funny thing about that: in FS9, the AI traffic tends to fly wide patterns, and of course they ignore your position reports and can't be interrogated for updates... but at least they tend to fly predictable, courteous entries!  Grin
 

...
IP Logged
 
Reply #5 - Apr 11th, 2010 at 9:34am

Brett_Henderson   Offline
Colonel
EVERY OUTER MARKER SHOULD
BE AN NDB

Gender: male
Posts: 3593
*****
 
Yeah..  LOL ..  MSFS AI will go out of their way to fly a pattern (a BIG pattern).

I have a traffic.bgl for the area I fly.. I like to crowd it with GA traffic flying to/from all the Islands. One of routes is the mere, five miles between 83D  and  KMCD. A MSFS AI will takeoff, fly some 10-15 miles out of the way, in order to enter on a downwind  Roll Eyes

RE: real patterns.. one thing rarely talked about, is to be at TPA as early as possible. You can spot pattern traffic much easier from there, and they you.

Another method I'll use at a crowded airport; is to enter the downind past where a base leg would be.. and report that I'll fly an extended downwind until its safe to turn inbound.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #6 - Jun 29th, 2010 at 6:24pm

Andy Hughes   Offline
Lieutenant Colonel
I Like Flight Simulation!
Silverton, Oregon

Gender: male
Posts: 5
*****
 
It's much better to just approach a couple miles on the downwind side, then either enter a 45 or a base. There are several reasons for this, one of the biggest is that unless you are flying at pattern altitude you will miss seeing MOST aircraft in the pattern. If you're above, they blend into the ground, and if you're below, well, you shouldn't be below pattern altitude approaching the airport....

Just because you have and use a radio to announce where you are does not mean that everyone else there has one, uses it, or knows where you mean when you say 5 mile final... what's five mile final? I've seen people say "short final" when they're 15 miles out, and I've seen people say "five mile final" when they're within one runway length (typically 4000' or LESS than a mile)

I don't fly a "pattern" because I want people to know where I am as much as I fly because I want to be sure I know where THEY are.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #7 - Jul 1st, 2010 at 9:11pm

olderndirt   Offline
Colonel
Flying is PFM
Rochester, WA

Gender: male
Posts: 3574
*****
 
-Crossfire- wrote on Apr 10th, 2010 at 11:52am:
At an aiport with a FSS, ATC will give you the wind
FSS is not ATC, it's Flight Service which advises rather than controls.
 

... 

                            
THIS IS NOT A PANAM CLIPPER

                                                            
IP Logged
 
Reply #8 - Jul 2nd, 2010 at 9:35pm

beaky   Offline
Global Moderator
Uhhhh.... yup!
Newark, NJ USA

Gender: male
Posts: 14187
*****
 
olderndirt wrote on Jul 1st, 2010 at 9:11pm:
-Crossfire- wrote on Apr 10th, 2010 at 11:52am:
At an aiport with a FSS, ATC will give you the wind
FSS is not ATC, it's Flight Service which advises rather than controls.

I think he means "the voice on the radio" in FS, also known as "ATC".   Wink
 

...
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send Topic Print