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P40 Two-seater/Trainer? (Read 1720 times)
May 4th, 2003 at 11:54pm

Professor Brensec   Offline
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I came across this during a search I did for a good P40 pic a while ago. I posted it in a previous thread disussing the P40, but no-one in that thread knew much about this particular plane.

Does anyone know where this two-seater is or anything about it. Were there any trainers converted during the War? etc
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Reply #1 - May 5th, 2003 at 12:04am

BFMF   Offline
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I didn't realize there was a 2 seater model
 
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Reply #2 - May 5th, 2003 at 12:11am

Deputy   Offline
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'Tis a trainer. They rarely made two-seaters unless they had to - a trainer had to have two seats. . . . .  Roll Eyes
 

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Reply #3 - May 5th, 2003 at 12:23am

Professor Brensec   Offline
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Quote:
'Tis a trainer. They rarely made two-seaters unless they had to - a trainer had to have two seats. . . . .  Roll Eyes


I'm thinking it may have been converted recently (in the last 20-30 years) for joyflights or just privately taking up friends etc. Like that Lady in England that has the Spitfire trainer. She has a two year waiting list for joyflights that cost a fortune.
It would be a great way to make your plane pay for itself.  Grin Grin
 

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Reply #4 - May 5th, 2003 at 1:22am

Rifleman   Offline
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Follow this link, there is mention of two trainer variants

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/p40warhawk.html
 

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Reply #5 - May 5th, 2003 at 3:34am

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
I'm thinking it may have been converted recently (in the last 20-30 years) for joyflights or just privately taking up friends etc. Like that Lady in England that has the Spitfire trainer. She has a two year waiting list for joyflights that cost a fortune.
It would be a great way to make your plane pay for itself.  Grin Grin

Interesting. I see from Rifleman's link that there was indeed a 2-seat trainer version of the P-40. Some P-51Ds have also been converted for civil use, mainly for executive work. I'm not sure these would have dual control. The manufacturers converted a limited number as TF-51 2-seat trainers. The Stallion 51 outfit offer flights in their dual controlled TF-51 from their base in Kissimmee, Florida, just down the road from Disney World. http://www.stallion51.com/contact.cfm They now have 3 of these rare aircraft.

Like most existing airworthy 2 - seater Spitfires, Carolyn Grace's ML407 was a standard LF.IXc acquired by the manufacturers after WWII service for conversion to Tr.9 standard. These were sold to the Irish Air Corps in 1950 & served in this role until 1960.
There were apparently some unofficial wartime conversions, mainly carried out in Russia. If any survive they would not conform to the official specifications.
 

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Reply #6 - May 5th, 2003 at 3:58am

Ivan   Offline
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Hagar, LOADS of early IL-2's were converted to two seaters in the war to incorporate a tail gunner.

result: most dangerous job in the russian airforce, because the armor wasn't that good on the rear side as it was on the front side
 

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Reply #7 - May 5th, 2003 at 4:10am

Hagar   Offline
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Thanks Ivan. I'm very interested in all this stuff & did read something about those IL-2s a while ago. I often wonder just how reliable some of this information is. It's great to have confirmation from your part of the world.  Wink
 

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Reply #8 - May 5th, 2003 at 5:28am

Professor Brensec   Offline
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Great link, Rifle.

I've seen the Warbirds site before but must have missed that bit. I wonder how many of the trainers they mention were actually built.
In another thread on the forum today, the "Most immortal" thread, I chose the P40 as my vote, for the reasons I mentioned there. I must add the total production of 15,000 which certainly puts it well above many of the popular fighters except the most prolific.

The P51 section in that site makes for interesting reading too.

P.S. They mention the P51C having a 'Bulging' canopy as opposed to the "teardrop" canopy of the P51D. Does anyone have a shot of the "C' with this canopy they mention?

You gotta love this shot, though!  Grin Grin Wink
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Reply #9 - May 5th, 2003 at 10:11am

ozzy72   Offline
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Hi Hagar, I've been looking into the Soviet Spitfires for a little while now, and it appears tragically that no more survive. I do have a few poor quality B&W shots, and some artists impressions, but v.little is known about how the conversions were done (beyond the basic chop), and even less is known about the pilots!

Alas Sad

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Reply #10 - May 5th, 2003 at 10:26am

Rifleman   Offline
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" Full size A/C are just
overgrown models ! "
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Brensec, here are a few different canopy profiles for you to peruse........not sure how accurate they are, but personally I have seen all these types before, including the "Malcolm" stye on the razorback..........
http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/plane_profiles/p-51_mustang/p-51_mustang_sidevie...

And from this link, I think I can surmise that the bubble-topped razor-back is the B/C model that you have in question............ Quote:
P.S. They mention the P51C having a 'Bulging' canopy as opposed to the "teardrop" canopy of the P51D. Does anyone have a shot of the "C' with this canopy they mention?

http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/p51Production.shtml
 

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Reply #11 - May 5th, 2003 at 9:49pm

Felix/FFDS   Offline
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Point of information - the IL-2 initially started out as a single seater, and while some (number unknown?) were converted to two-seaters in the field, the IL-2M was the standard production two seater - with gunner.

Anecdotal sidebar:  ... most gunners supposedly were drawn from convicts, promised their freedom if they survived x number of missions.... but if they were close to completing the number, they woud be transferred. ... apparently IL-2M gunner mortality was high, and IL-2 losses happened when the enemy fighters realized the gunner was dead/incapacitated, because the gun would flop down... a spring mechanism was devised to hold the gun up...

Dedicated dual-control versions of the "Sturmovik" were designated U-Il-2 or Il-2U ...


Of course, totally anecedotal, and I can't even remember where I read the stuff, but...

Quote:
Hagar, LOADS of early IL-2's were converted to two seaters in the war to incorporate a tail gunner.

result: most dangerous job in the russian airforce, because the armor wasn't that good on the rear side as it was on the front side

 

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Reply #12 - May 6th, 2003 at 3:27am

HawkerTempest5   Offline
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According to my quick bit of reserch, there are only two two seat P-40's remaining. The only one I can find out anything about is the sole surviving factory built TP-40N-6-CU belonging to Mr. Kermit Weeks. This plane is just coming to the end of a total rebuild, so the one in your photo is most likely the other one. Your aircraft must have had a second seat fitted some time during it's life but I can't find any details just now. I'll keep looking.
 

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Reply #13 - May 7th, 2003 at 6:35am

Professor Brensec   Offline
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I'd be interested to know if it is a "pillion" seat or an "operational" training type seat.

P.S. The lady in England who has the Two-seater Spit, Carolyn Grace. Is hers' merely a "passenger seat" or does it have full controls?  Grin
 

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Reply #14 - May 7th, 2003 at 7:39am

Hagar   Offline
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Quote:
P.S. The lady in England who has the Two-seater Spit, Carolyn Grace. Is hers' merely a "passenger seat" or does it have full controls?  Grin

As I mentioned earlier, the Grace Spitfire is a genuine factory conversion to Tr.9 standard.
It has full dual controls which enabled Carolyn Grace to be trained to fly it after the sad loss of her husband. She is the only fully qualified female Spitfire display pilot in the world & much respected for her exquisite displays. http://www.ml407.co.uk/
 

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