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why are jets faster then props? (Read 4695 times)
Reply #15 - Feb 6th, 2003 at 8:04am

Brett_Henderson   Ex Member
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Quote:
Interesting replies here. I'm surprised that nobody mentioned stall speed . Jet engines, having more blades per row and more rows are more efficient at moving air than propellers


Hmmm, thought I "kinda" said that :

Quote:
Props (including turbo-probs) are like little wings  trying to "climb" through the air, pulling the plane along. A prop can only cut through the air to a point


I still want my quarter.

 
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Reply #16 - Feb 6th, 2003 at 9:41am

Felix/FFDS   Offline
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To add what Brett said -

assume you have a rocketship at rest in space...

If you accelerate from a full rest at a constant 1.0g for 24hrs  ... shut the engine off ... coast (at the final speed reached ...  you will need to turn the rocketship 180degrees so that the thrust will point in the exact direction of the line of travel and turn it on again for 24hrs at a 1.0g acceleration to come to a complete stop.

It's a matter of vector math - x force at y angle applied can be stopped by x force at -y angle... or forces b at angle -u, c at angle -v as long as their vector sum equal force x at angle -y ... Smiley



Quote:
and exactly how do you decelerate in an enviorment with no air if u have one little rocket engine pushing the plane forward?(first person to explain this gets a shiny new quater and a shiny new learjet;)

 

Felix/FFDS...
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Reply #17 - Feb 6th, 2003 at 10:25am

Brett_Henderson   Ex Member
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Anyone in my age bracket (40+) surely played Asteriods in the arcades.

That game was a perfect example of how vector math applies to a rocket. Remember when you would run from the little saucer as fast as the ship would fly ? And then when it was safe, you'd have to turn the ship around and apply the thrust just to slow down and gain control.

And that was only on 2 dimensions, imagine trying it in a "3-D" environment  Shocked

 
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Reply #18 - Feb 6th, 2003 at 11:04am

Rifleman   Offline
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this stall you are talking about in front of a propellor is what I was referring to when I addressed the difference in the tip and root speeds of a prop....tips hit Mach 1 faster than root, .....thats the noise we here from a high speed Heli.....as for the cpmpressor stalls, from high density air being forced down the throat of modern jets, thats the reason the variable intake was brought into play....remember the performance of the B-1 ? before the variable intakes and exhausts were removed on this bird to reduce costs, and produce the B-1B Roll Eyes, the B-1A was a much higher performance aircraft.....much faster !............backin ya up 100% on this one  Cheesy
 

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Reply #19 - Feb 6th, 2003 at 3:24pm

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Quote:
Hmmm, thought I "kinda" said that :


I still want my quarter.


ok,ok*gives brett his damn quater*
 

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Reply #20 - Feb 6th, 2003 at 3:54pm
ViNtAgE FlYa   Ex Member

 
wow, i never expected to get this much of a responce.... Shocked i've lernt more then i do in school in 2 weeks!!! well maybe i should be paying more attention in school... Roll Eyes
 
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Reply #21 - Feb 7th, 2003 at 6:09am

Professor Brensec   Offline
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I said, "Turn around" , or turn the engine around (thrust pointing in opposite direction),,geez  Wink


Can I have the quarter ?


Any of the brighter designers would have "retro" (meaning reverse or backwards) rockets or engines already facing the other way!!   Grin Grin Wink
 

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Reply #22 - Feb 7th, 2003 at 8:50am

Brett_Henderson   Ex Member
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I love how these threads take on a life of their own  Grin

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Any of the brighter designers would have "retro" (meaning reverse or backwards) rockets or engines already facing the other way!! 


I dunno,,  since we've jumped over from "prop vs. jet" to "space-travel", let's ponder it.

A retro-rocket capable of counter-acting the velocity built up by another rocket, would have to be at least as big, powerful and heavy. That would make it "dead weight" for 1/2 the flight.

Small maneuvering rockets (to turn around) or a mechanical sytem to reverse the main rocket (or it's thrust) is more the way to go.

Can't wait to see where this thread goes next  ???

PS. "dead weight" should read, "dead mass", as there is no weight without gravity  Wink

 
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Reply #23 - Feb 7th, 2003 at 9:08am

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Yes, it's more efficient to use smaller maneouvering thrusters than another "equal and opposite" rocket.

As to mechanical means - an internal "flywheel" type arrangement could be considered, using the torque of a spinning mass to rotate the overall ship.   I think, however, that given the masses involved, thrusters are more efficient.

(Where Andy Libby when we need him?)



Quote:
I love how these threads take on a life of their own  Grin


I dunno,,  since we've jumped over from "prop vs. jet" to "space-travel", let's ponder it.

A retro-rocket capable of counter-acting the velocity built up by another rocket, would have to be at least as big, powerful and heavy. That would make it "dead weight" for 1/2 the flight.

Small maneuvering rockets (to turn around) or a mechanical sytem to reverse the main rocket (or it's thrust) is more the way to go.

Can't wait to see where this thread goes next  ???

PS. "dead weight" should read, "dead mass", as there is no weight without gravity  Wink


 

Felix/FFDS...
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Reply #24 - Feb 7th, 2003 at 10:49am

Rifleman   Offline
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Quote:
let's ponder this......
A retro-rocket capable of counter-acting the velocity built up by another rocket, would have to be at least as big, powerful and heavy. That would make it "dead weight" for 1/2 the flight.
PS. "dead weight" should read, "dead mass", as there is no weight without gravity  Wink

Brett, first thing to ponder...why would it be necessary to carry a slower-downer the same size as the giddy-upper.......if its half the size, then you just run it twice as long ? Roll Eyes Roll Eyes so you take twice as long to slow down....... one third of the trip accelerating and two thirds in the de-celerate mode !
As for "Dead Weight" being changed to read "Dead Mass" ?...whats the difference ?....Mass is defined as the "unit of weight per unit of volume "......gee theres that weight thing again.....I think it(using the term weight) has something to do with the amount of potential energy and kinetic energy and the managment of both........its just that we express the requirements of both, the amount of force to move a body or to resist the bodys motion, in a common way......1 lb of thrust can accelerate a 1 lb body at a given rate, and, if aimed in the direct opposite direction of travel, will de-celerate it at the same rate......in a vacuum, of course .
Am I confused yet ? Tongue

ps: and to keep on topic, this motive force can be generated in air too by a propellor  8)
 

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Reply #25 - Feb 7th, 2003 at 2:42pm

Brett_Henderson   Ex Member
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Quote:
Brett, first thing to ponder...why would it be necessary to carry a slower-downer the same size as the giddy-upper.......if its half the size, then you just run it twice as long ?   so you take twice as long to slow down....... one third of the trip accelerating and two thirds in the de-celerate mode !


That's the point,,  you don't want 2 at all. You want to use 100% of your engine mass accelerating/decelerating,, any deviation from that adds time to the trip (geometrically I might add).. the shortest possible trip would be accelerating full speed to the 1/2 way point, and then decelerating to a stop.

Quote:
As for "Dead Weight" being changed to read "Dead Mass" ?...whats the difference ?....Mass is defined as the "unit of weight per unit of volume


I believe you're confusing "mass" with "density"...

Weight is a function of  Mass X Gravity .. on Earth that gravity equals  (32'/sec^2)

Kilograms and Pounds can only be linearally converted on Earth..  

'Kilograms' are units of Mass,, the English-system equivelant is the 'Slug'...

Pounds are units of force (Mass X Gravity),, the Metric-system equivelant is the 'Newton'...

Ever notice that rocket thrust is always given in either 'pounds' or 'newtons',  never 'kilograms' ?

I believe the moon's gravity is 1/6 that of Earth, so here goes the comparison:

An object weighing 6 pounds on Earth weighs 1 pound on the moon.... An object with 6 kilograms of mass on Earth STILL has 6 kilograms of mass on the moon .


Or,,  carried to the extreme.. in zero gravity nothing "weighs" anything,, everything still hass "mass"   Wink

 
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Reply #26 - Feb 7th, 2003 at 7:55pm

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One upgrade to the whole idea you present here....in the event of the little boy crouchng under the nozzle trying to strike his match to light the fuel and oxidizer, and winding up finding the sulphur all paste from moisture, they now use a foolproof method of ignition,....the fuel and oxidizer are " hypergolics ".....materials which ingite on contact with each other........been using these types since leaving the moon became a requirement to a successful mission.



oh yeh, one more thing..... airplane engines are called "
air
breathing engines"


I stand corrected.
 
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Reply #27 - Feb 7th, 2003 at 8:32pm

Rifleman   Offline
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I did say that I could be confused !.....it does explain one thing, though.....it takes less time to get home from the moon than it does to go there......its all downhill(relatively speaking), with only one sixth of the escape velocity required to break free of the moons influence and allow the earths to take over.....5/6ths of the trip back is accelerating.....without further motive force being applied internally at the vehicle........I guess thats why long distance space travel so far, has made use of other celestial bodies and their imparted gravitational influence to the traveller............Americans call it the singshot effect.....in England a slingshot is a catapult .
 

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Reply #28 - Feb 7th, 2003 at 8:36pm

Deputy   Offline
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Quote:
Yes, it's more efficient to use smaller maneouvering thrusters than another
"equal and opposite"
rocket.

As to mechanical means - an internal "flywheel" type arrangement could be considered, using the torque of a spinning mass to rotate the overall ship.   I think, however, that given the masses involved, thrusters are more efficient.

(Where Andy Libby when we need him?)






I assumed we were talking about inside the atmosphere. . .
 

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Reply #29 - Feb 8th, 2003 at 5:53am

Professor Brensec   Offline
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Quote:
A retro-rocket capable of counter-acting the velocity built up by another rocket, would have to be at least as big, powerful and heavy. That would make it "dead weight" for 1/2 the flight.


We were talking about a Jumbo being moved through space by "the tiniest rocket". This is what I based my comment on. Another "tiny one" would not make that much difference. In fact, depending on the definition of "tiny", it may even have less mass than the thrusters you speak of.

As once a rocket propelled object reaches it's required velocity and remains at that velocity until acted upon by some opposite force (inertia), the extra weight (little as it is) I don't feel would make a difference in this particular scenario.  Tongue Tongue Tongue Grin
 

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